The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

[kuartus4]

-I really like the idea of Kaioshins working in shifts, and one taking over when another dies by "growing like a plant", and all that. It just...contradicts a lot. First of course it doesn't seem to fit Toriyama's prior Q&A origin for the Kaioshins. Worse, the idea of there being three Kaioshins is hard to reconcile with the manga, where we're told there were five, before four were killed/absorbed by Buu, at which point they were pointedly not replaced by anyone. We even see Elder Kaioshin die in the manga, and nobody sprouts up to replace him. The 75,000 year life span is the same as Toriyama gave in the SEG for Shinjin/Core People, but now that it's applied specifically to the Kaioshin, it ends up explicitly contradicting the official timeline, which has East Kaioshin living at least 5 million years (before, we could at least say golden fruit Shinjin were an exception or something).

I think some of this can be reconciled. The SEG says that the kaioshin are born from the pit of the golden fruit of the kaiju tree right? It kinda makes sense that something has to be done with those golden fruit pits before they become grown kaioshin. Perhaps they are planted in the ground where they then grow like plants into grown kioshins. Pits are seeds right? Grown kaioshin are selected by lottery to be gods, while one pit is planted in the ground just in case one dies accidenty, which magically activates the kaioshin pit to grow up, but only if a kaioshin dies accidentally. The Q&A says the back up kaioshin grows up like a plant if a kaioshin dies by accident. This could explain why no kaioshin sprouted when Buu killed the four kaioshins and when old kai gave his life away. They didnt die accidentally. As to the number of kaioshins. The Q&A says there are three kaioshins now right? That doesnt mean there werent five active kaioshins in the past. Plus that inactive back up kaioshin pit in the ground which is activated only if one of them dies accidently. As to their life span. Maybe it really is just 75 thousand years and Old kai lived as long as he did because the sword he was in had him in a sort of suspended animation? Although I admit it does contradict the official timeline.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Mmh, the Buu origin thing is strange. How did he came into being if it wasn't Bibidi then?
I really like the other tidbits though. And while most of the Kais are scared shitless of Beerus, I can totally see the Old Kai not being afraid of him and annoying him over some trivial matter.

I still liked to go with my "Failed GOD substitute for Beerus' sleep phase created by Whis given to Bibidi to summon" fanfic idea.

I don't understand the point of changing Buu's backstory, unless Toriyama was concerned Buu was too much like Cell, being an artificially created creature. Actually, this new version of early Buu sounds really similar to Beerus (sleep, destroy, sleep, destroy). So maybe Toriyama is trying to tie the too together, hinting at Buu being some long-forgotten elder God of Destruction?

I think Boo being an immortal evil force that Bibidi summons makes the story better, because it enforces the Jinn aspects of Boo!

Buu barely had any backstory, anything that elabourates on his prior relevance is a good thing. Anything to tie him to the Gods of Destruction which he is at heart would be even better. I would argue that bibidi personafied the evil energy that Buu is. (The smoke) or something, hes a wizard but couldnt control it. Its like he made Buu but his essence always existed. Though probably not the case, thats my explaination. Buu could very well be made of the same evil waste that created Janemba then.

Yeah, I don't think we need to take that as, "Goku will never, under any circumstances, use Super Saiyan 2 or 3 again." If the fate of the Earth depends on him using Super Saiyan 3 for a total of five seconds, he's not going to refuse to do it. It only need mean that Goku realizes his base and mastered Super Saiyan forms are the best ones for battle, so he'll stick with those unless he really NEEDS something higher.

We can probably look forward to a new replacement technique that would by more efficent than balancing the power ups as SSJ replaced Kaioken. Hopefully something that would make Goku physically bulkier (not literally)

[Vice]

He'll probably say something along the lines of

"What? It doesn't matter how strong Gohan gets, he'll always be useless compared to Goku"

Again with this shit? Gohan had Cell, Gohan had a run as the main character that failed, Gohan had a long period of time where he was canonically the strongest unfused fighter in the entire series, Gohan had more than everybody in this series not named Goku.

Enough with this. It's not Gohan's story, it's Goku's. Get over it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Doesn't work. Toriyama specifically mentions the reason as their minor argument, while Old Kai says the monster feared his abilities. Neither mention anything else. You can't just stack them on top of each other.

Works fine for me.

Oh, and that mastering the SS form tidbit was just a new level of stupid. Aside from it obviously being an excuse to justify using the easiest to draw/animate form more, it makes no sense. Goku already mastered Super Saiyan in the Cell arc. SS2 and SS3 were the "correct" ascensions of that form. What is Toriyama saying? That Goku was a dumbass, and during the seven years training his best course of action would've just been to master Super Saiyan again? And don't bring up god power here, Toriyama doesn't even mention it, and treats this statement more like "mastering SS more was always the best way to go, Goku just now realized it".

Toriyama says after the battle with Beerus, aka after he absorbed the SSGod power. So, Goku wasn't a dumbass, SS2 & SS3 just don't give any additional power anymore, and only put more strain to the body. So, training in base & Super Saiyan (Full Power) now that he can use all of his power in these forms, really is the best way, because every other form is useless now.

[TheGmGoken]

He'll probably say something along the lines of

"What? It doesn't matter how strong Gohan gets, he'll always be useless compared to Goku"

Again with this shit? Gohan had Cell, Gohan had a run as the main character that failed, Gohan had a long period of time where he was canonically the strongest unfused fighter in the entire series, Gohan had more than everybody in this series not named Goku.

Enough with this. It's not Gohan's story, it's Goku's. Get over it.

Whoa Whoa. Chill out man its a joke. They most likely prefer Goku. Don't neef to be mad

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I'm actually quite disappointed to hear SSJ2-3 will be effectually discarded. I can see why though in terms of Use, just the sustainability for it is incificent, even when mastered. It wastes a lot of ki to transform, revert and create techniques. It could also help marketing as his SSJ form is the most iconic element of the franchise, 2-3 are just in-story obscure add ons to most people.

Though I hope Akira didnt come to this from the peer-pressure of haters cynically bashing the forms on the meme of DBZ's infamous form stacking. Even screw attack mocked it (as ignorant as it was for superOVERPOWEREDman) which got to me a bit, then there were the users here that mocked the forms as well bashing their existance in all hell for no real reason besides trivial aesthetics. I'm gonna miss them especially SSJ3. It actually looked powerful. SSJGod was, meh.

Oh, and that mastering the SS form tidbit was just a new level of stupid. Aside from it obviously being an excuse to justify using the easiest to draw/animate form more, it makes no sense. Goku already mastered Super Saiyan in the Cell arc. SS2 and SS3 were the "correct" ascensions of that form. What is Toriyama saying? That Goku was a dumbass, and during the seven years training his best course of action would've just been to master Super Saiyan again? And don't bring up god power here, Toriyama doesn't even mention it, and treats this statement more like "mastering SS more was always the best way to go, Goku just now realized it".

Not unless its suggesting that there are better ways to train using the SSj power without having to strain their bodies on powering up. It all goes back to the Cell arc, where Goku wanted new ways to use the energy without unbalancing his physical state. Step 1 was to master SSJ as the base so that it was possible to build on it itself. SSJ2/3 only came out of having access to more power but now you can say Goku doesnt want MORE power but more, smarter and diverse ways to use it. Thus opening up new doors for abilities they can learn from the Gods. Beers already estabilshed that raw energy alone is pointless if it cant affect him. Thats the limitation/wall they reached here.

Toriyama says after the battle with Beerus, aka after he absorbed the SSGod power. So, Goku wasn't a dumbass, SS2 & SS3 just don't give any additional power anymore, and only put more strain to the body. So, training in base & Super Saiyan (Full Power) now that he can use all of his power in these forms, really is the best way, because every other form is useless now.

Sounds like what should have been established through Gohan, too bad they werent consistent enough with him to show this as the next step to limit utilization.

[Kaboom]

I sincerely doubt that Toriyama's on-the-spot comments about what would "probably" happen under the circumstances left by Battle of Gods will cause SSJ2 and SSJ3 to be "phased out" in any impactful way.

[TheGmGoken]

I sincerely doubt that Toriyama's on-the-spot comments about what would "probably" happen under the circumstances left by Battle of Gods will cause SSJ2 and SSJ3 to be "phased out" in any impactful way.

I think we'll see ssj3 Goku again. But SSJ2 is byebye. Mainly cause its the least popular for Goku.

[Kid Buu]

He'll probably say something along the lines of

"What? It doesn't matter how strong Gohan gets, he'll always be useless compared to Goku"

Again with this shit? Gohan had Cell, Gohan had a run as the main character that failed, Gohan had a long period of time where he was canonically the strongest unfused fighter in the entire series, Gohan had more than everybody in this series not named Goku.

Enough with this. It's not Gohan's story, it's Goku's. Get over it.

What I said was meant as a joke but you seem to be taking it rather personally. Remember it's just a kids cartoon in the end of the day.

Toriyama is clearly pushing the series to be about Goku and Vegeta, and therefore couldn't care less about what form of Super Saiyan Gohan uses. That was my joke.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I sincerely doubt that Toriyama's on-the-spot comments about what would "probably" happen under the circumstances left by Battle of Gods will cause SSJ2 and SSJ3 to be "phased out" in any impactful way.

I think we'll see ssj3 Goku again. But SSJ2 is byebye. Mainly cause its the least popular for Goku.

Not to mention its basically no real difference for Goku besides just the time frame. Especially if Akira Toriyama mixes all the forms up so much himself, the last thing we want are more inconsistancies over trivial things like this. Perhaps cutting it is the smarter move. SSJ3 however is passable because it stands out the most, as he put it "its the one with the long hair." as opposed to his SSJ2 thats just a different bang arrangement. I love the form but it didnt introduce anything for Goku, it just patched his gap under Cell games Gohan.

Again with this shit? Gohan had Cell, Gohan had a run as the main character that failed, Gohan had a long period of time where he was canonically the strongest unfused fighter in the entire series, Gohan had more than everybody in this series not named Goku.Enough with this. It's not Gohan's story, it's Goku's. Get over it.

Gohan is too garbage of a character to waste all the power ups on and Akira Toriyama knows this, I just wish they could retcon that fact, explain why Gohan sucks, take his Mystic form from him let him stay weak so fans wont be debating it or expecting him to do more than hes competent of.

[Kid Buu]

You hate Gohan? That's odd since you have him in your avatar.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

You hate Gohan? That's odd since you have him in your avatar.

Yeah I know. TBH I liked him as he was represented in my avatar, he wasnt OP anymore but complex, I felt a lot of pity for him where he was insecure about not living up to his father's expectations because he hates fighting, how he was trying to be overconfident with Dabura just to prove Vegeta wrong but realized he was wasting his power while failing to even keep up with a guy much weaker than him and having Goku cover for him with optymistic excuses for him.. all of that I felt could have been great for character development. It could have inspired a lot of growth and reflection as Future Gohan became....

Then Mystic Gohan happened.....

Thats why ^he isnt my Avatar. He's worthless.

In the manga, EK says he got sealed away by a super strong, super evil dude (that was still weaker than Buu), because the guy was afraid of EK's power-up ability. Here, Toriyama says it was because EK got into an argument with Beerus (a not all that evil guy who's way stronger than Buu) over some piddling little thing. Maybe they were arguing about EK's power-up ability, and EK underestimates Beerus' power? But you'd think EK would actually mention during the course of BoG that he had this prior encounter with Beerus.

We could speculate that perhapse Beerus was displeased that EK wouldnt give the power up to him? Maybe he thought Beerus was weak because of his calmness? Or thought he was weak because of his loud-moiuth greedy nature and childishness? Maybe EK didnt think he was worthy of it, just like how he complained about using the dragonballs etc. Perhapse EK is an ignorant old-school man that hates it when people try to alter the balance of their universe for personal needs.

[Kid Buu]

I can see that. I'm a big fan of Saiyaman but Mystic Gohan felt ultimately pointless to the story's narrative and helped make the Buu Arc more bloated than it already is.

Although I do use Gohan and Goten's failure to succeed Goku in the Buu Arc as evidence that they are really Yamcha's kids.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I can see that. I'm a big fan of Saiyaman but Mystic Gohan felt ultimately pointless to the story's narrative and helped make the Buu Arc more bloated than it already is.

Its not even that, its that in that state hes shown that hes learned NOTHING from his fight with cell and that the events repeated itself exactly.

- Gohan makes threats
- Gohan gets in OP hits
- Gohan gets Cocky
- Gohan screws around
- Enemy Self-destructs
- Gohan gets ass kicked
- Dad comes to the rescue

Its exactly the same fight over again.
Super buu was right.

Then in Wrath of the Dragon and BoG we see how useless he is in that form. Hes been reduced to a pitiful distraction now under vegeta... who is infamously very distracting to enemies.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah most his solo battles are boring because they are generally stomp matches.

His best fight in my opinion was his contribution to the Vegeta fight.

[TheOverlyMadHatter]

I can't say I'm too fond of this info, myself. I mean, yeah, it is interesting trivia when not somewhat contradictory, but a lot of it seems to be Toriyama coming up with things on the fly. But if he decides that's how things went down, that's how they went down.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Yeah most his solo battles are boring because they are generally stomp matches.
His best fight in my opinion was his contribution to the Vegeta fight.

His best fight IMO was his illusion form fighting Goku, thats what he should have been in BoG, no BS just focused and the only legitamently good fight hes ever had solo.

[Kid Buu]

Was that in during the filler when they were stuck in Buu's head? Yeah, I'd probably go with that to. Either that one or his Dabura fight.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Well, that's exactly what I said in my post. None of these things have to be plot holes if you squint hard enough. But Raditz's initial monologue has been retconned so many times that, if you go back and watch/read it now, rather than being shocking information, it's worthless, because he's apparently wrong about everything! I'm just saying that, the difference up until now, was that at least they'd been changes for the sake of something. With DB Minus, given that it actually damages the story AND is just one more thing to add to the list of things Raditz got wrong, it's a lot harder to justify. It's getting to the point where it's no longer worth expelling the effort to suspend my disbelief. It's not about whether we CAN make the plot holes work because of course we can. It's about whether it's WORTH IT to do so, if what's being told DESERVES it.

I agree, DB minus really ruined a lot of what I used to like about Bardock and Goku, the preached theme about Goku being different because he had a peaceful heart, not foredestined and the fact that Bardocl's only redemption for his sins was to make sure his son escaped and be the one to hopefully put an end to their slavery and their deeds... and that Goku only achieved it because he defied his own set destiny by breaking through it. Nope. Hes just another superman now literally.

The part about Buu not needing energy is nothing new, and the spell Bibidi uses is just... why did we need to know that?

How did he really awaken without energy? Is Gohan made of sugar? How could candy be his sustinence of he only learned what it was when he became fat buu? I also thought that the buus dont share different personalities, how can they all like candy? Kid buu was willing to kill Mr. Satan after fat buu was expelled so...

A certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaioshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus

Why the Z-Sword? I thought it was the weapon used by the only warrior they knew who could slay buu? They said... why would Beerus put him into a weapon? How is that logical? and how is what he did even legal? Couldnt he just throw them all into various objects and then destroy their planet?

What was wrong with goku getting his good nature from grandpa gohan ?

When the hell did that one change?!

The new manga suggests that Goku was inherently good and incorruptable because of his Mother somehow which isnt at all logical.

Was that in during the filler when they were stuck in Buu's head? Yeah, I'd probably go with that to. Either that one or his Dabura fight.

His dabura fight was sloppy as hell, one of the worst fights in the series. He tried to copy how his dad fought Freeza but failed hard. When I say the Illusion Gohan was the best fighter, watch the animation. The progression in his assault on Goku was linear in quality and on point.

[Kid Buu]

Really? I remember liking the Dabura one quite a bit, and it wasn't just a one-stop for a change.

Checking out the illusion fight now.