Would Z have been as successful on US TV if JPN BGM was kept

[EXBadguy]

I wonder why they would put some of the old themes back when the people called it Z in the first place. If the anime version of Goku's adulthood sequel was still called Dragon Ball, maybe I'll accept that.

[Zephyr]

I could be saying all of this to you or any Kikuchi fan as well, put off the nostalgia glasses and take a look at other composers. Notice the difference between DB and Z. Heck, half of the JPN game soundtrack is based on Kikuchi.

What are you talking about?

And this is coming from someone who grew up watching the entire series on Toonami and enjoyed it thoroughly.

And even if it was the Kikuchi score that I grew up with, that doesn't change a thing. I'm not the one arguing that my subjective personal experience of the franchise is what decides what is and is not appropriate. I tried bringing up objective facts regarding the production process and the narrative to you, and that was essentially adismissed on the grounds of "it's my opinion man". Dragon Ball was from the beginning, and has continued to be, a fantasy martial arts story. The soundtrack is made for that sort of story. That being the nature of the story has never changed.

I mean, HOW can anyone here not notice the differences of tone between the early DB and the later DB and Z(half of Tenshinhan to Cell)?

Nobody is saying that the Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc and the Cell arc are identical in tone, I'm not sure where you're getting that notion. But the tone of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc and the tone of the Saiyan arc aren't really that different. It's a gradual process, from beginning to end. There's no night and day moment of tonal shift for the series, thus any line you draw for a change in soundtrack due to changing tone will be incredibly arbitrary. Toei very clearly didn't see one needed to be made. When you're arguing that a change needed to happen at a specific point in time, the fact that said point in time is little more than arbitrary isn't helping your case at all.

Plus, what does looking at things differently cuz of nostalgia have to do with anything?

The argument that the tone changed to the degree that warrants an absolutely alien soundtrack relies on ignorance of the production process and the narrative; it would consequently be foolish to use the "Tone" argument as a premise for the "OST needed to change" argument. That means that nostalgia is the only premise supporting the "OST needed to change" argument. This doesn't bode well for the argument.

We don't have people complaining around the world over the fact that soundtrack wasn't changed, at the time when it allegedly should have. Toei did not change the soundtrack, when it allegedly should have. The only thing that would give fans the idea that a soundtrack change was needed can come from the fact that someone went and did it, and they enjoyed it. That's totally fine. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the changed soundtrack. But the fact that you prefer it doesn't mean it was necessary.

[Gaffer Tape]

I wonder why they would put some of the old themes back when the people called it Z in the first place. If the anime version of Goku's adulthood sequel was still called Dragon Ball, maybe I'll accept that.

Because, honestly, why would they? They tacked a letter Z on the end and changed the opening and ending themes. Other than that, it was the exact same show as it had been the week before, and they had three years' worth of music by the same composer at their disposal, some of which was quite new. It would have been a huge waste to just stop using it. A lot of new tracks were introduced at the beginning of "Z", but it was just the next in a long series of new musical additions.

Seriously, it's really no different from Z episode 200, where the series likewise got new themes and a handful of new pieces of music. It was just a refresher.

[Big Momma]

If the anime version of Goku's adulthood sequel was still called Dragon Ball, maybe I'll accept that.

Why would a name change make any difference? Especially with a difference of literally one letter.

[ABED]

I wonder why they would put some of the old themes back when the people called it Z in the first place. If the anime version of Goku's adulthood sequel was still called Dragon Ball, maybe I'll accept that.

Because it's all one big story. Why would it matter if they had the same exact title? In sequels to movies they often use the same music even though titles are different.

[thaman91]

As a dub fan, I really enjoyed Kikuchi's music in DB for the most part. However, towards the end of the show I noticed that I was enjoying the score less and less. Certain themes, like King Piccolo's theme, really started to get on my nerves when I heard them.

I also tried to watch DBZ with the Kikuchi score. And although there were a few pieces that I liked, I still found myself groaning when certain themes played (I'm not sure what the names of these pieces are but one of them was used as episode recap music for Kikuchi Kai).

Now I'm not sure if this was because I actually disliked the music itself or if I was annoyed because certain themes felt overused. OR, it could have been because the show itself was starting to have more and more filler and so certain tracks had to be repeated a lot because the plot wasn't progressing very briskly (or tracks had to be designed to fit scenes that were long and drawn out). With that being said, when I compare the music at the beginning of DB to the beginning of DBZ, the former is just way more enjoyable for me. Perhaps I just enjoy his light-hearted "going on an adventure" music more so than his serious/dramatic stuff.

As for the original question, Z probably would have been just as successful with either score. I think a better question would be, "Would Z have been successful on US TV if the first 67 episodes hadn't been condensed to 53?". Personally, I find a lot of the early Z stuff to be so boring due to the abundance of filler. I didn't really notice this when I saw the original Ocean dub of the first 53 episodes because the pace was considerably faster. But when I went back to watch the show uncut, I definitely noticed how slow the plot was moving. It makes me thankful that Kai exists.

[ABED]

Most of what was cut in those 53 episodes came out of the Saiyan arc. In many cases, the cuts in the early Freeza arc were imperceptible. DBZ would've been popular even with the filler.

[EXBadguy]

And even if it was the Kikuchi score that I grew up with, that doesn't change a thing. I'm not the one arguing that my subjective personal experience of the franchise is what decides what is and is not appropriate. I tried bringing up objective facts regarding the production process and the narrative to you, and that was essentially adismissed on the grounds of "it's my opinion man". Dragon Ball was from the beginning, and has continued to be, a fantasy martial arts story. The soundtrack is made for that sort of story.

Sorry, but I don't see how a saga involving blasting a hole through a chest and then punching in it has the same tone as Roshi seeing panties.

[Nobody is saying that the Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc and the Cell arc are identical in tone, I'm not sure where you're getting that notion. But the tone of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc and the tone of the Saiyan arc aren't really that different. It's a gradual process, from beginning to end. There's no night and day moment of tonal shift for the series, thus any line you draw for a change in soundtrack due to changing tone will be incredibly arbitrary. Toei very clearly didn't see one needed to be made. When you're arguing that a change needed to happen at a specific point in time, the fact that said point in time is little more than arbitrary isn't helping your case at all. .

I'm not saying the tone gets darker and darker, all I'm saying is that the sagas I've mentioned don't even have the same tone as the earlier sagas of DB had, it had nothing to do with the progression of the tone.

Also I don't care if my opinion is arbitrary. I just don't see some of the stuff the same way as you or most people here do.

The argument that the tone changed to the degree that warrants an absolutely alien soundtrack relies on ignorance of the production process and the narrative; it would consequently be foolish to use the "Tone" argument as a premise for the "OST needed to change" argument. That means that nostalgia is the only premise supporting the "OST needed to change" argument. This doesn't bode well for the argument.

I've said it many times that I gave Kikuchi a chance, in fact, more than one chance. There are some of them that I do like in Z, there is a difference in the tone of Kikuchi's Z work, but mostly I didn't like it...much. If that's biased nostalgia, then so be it. Heck, I like "Thiefammamoto's" Kai soundtrack better than all of the soundtracks combined, so the nostalgia thing you're talking about goes right out the window.

I wonder why they would put some of the old themes back when the people called it Z in the first place. If the anime version of Goku's adulthood sequel was still called Dragon Ball, maybe I'll accept that.

Because it's all one big story. Why would it matter if they had the same exact title? In sequels to movies they often use the same music even though titles are different.

*shrug* Some anime series do it like the Naruto series. Shippuden had a different composer. Now I don't even watch anime anymore, but I KNOW there are some other anime series that do the same thing, name a part 2 series something else and change the soundtrack.

[ABED]

I'm not saying the tone gets darker and darker, all I'm saying is that the sagas I've mentioned don't even have the same tone as the earlier sagas of DB had, it had nothing to do with the progression of the tone.

And if you look at someone when he/she is 5 and 25, he/she will look very different, in some cases almost unrecognizable at first. What you are missing is ages 6 through 24.

*shrug* Some anime series do it like the Naruto series. Shippuden had a different composer. Now I don't even watch anime anymore, but I KNOW there are some other anime series that do the same thing, name a part 2 series something else and change the soundtrack.

And some movies do it as well. It's a matter of preference. I prefer continuity of score.

[kei17]

You're ignoring the already mentioned fact that the music did change over time.

*sigh* God.... I SAID that I noticed that it did, I just didn't like the soundtrack still.

Stiiiill sounds like it came from a 1960 martial arts movie. I don't think that's what Z is about. Sure, for DB it does fit, as it has that Sun Wukong/Jackie Chan vibe, but Z...nah.

So you ARE aware of the fact that the Kikuchi score did change over time and its tone became different than that in the first series, but you don't think it fits because Z is no more a '60s style martial arts show and different than DB... Wait, what?

You're obviously just decolating "I don't like it cause it sucks" with pseudo-logical reasonings that you don't really understand yourself.

[EXBadguy]

You're ignoring the already mentioned fact that the music did change over time.

*sigh* God.... I SAID that I noticed that it did, I just didn't like the soundtrack still.

Stiiiill sounds like it came from a 1960 martial arts movie. I don't think that's what Z is about. Sure, for DB it does fit, as it has that Sun Wukong/Jackie Chan vibe, but Z...nah.

So you ARE aware of the fact that the Kikuchi score did change over time and its tone became different than that in the first series, but you don't think it fits because Z is no more a '60s style martial arts show and different than DB... Wait, what?

Yeah, and why? Just because I noticed it, doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Zephyr]

Sorry, but I don't see how a saga involving blasting a hole through a chest and then punching in it has the same tone as Roshi seeing panties.

I don't either. Why are you bringing this up?

I just don't see some of the stuff the same way as you or most people here do.

That's fine, but the "way you see the series" doesn't seem to line up with reality, given the way you've been articulating it. Which means it's not much of a defense for there being any real merit or reason for changing the OST. Which makes it completely pointless to post.

so the nostalgia thing you're talking about goes right out the window

When you're still using that nostalgia as the reason for why the OST change was needed, no it really doesn't.

[EXBadguy]

That's fine, but the "way you see the series" doesn't seem to line up with reality, given the way you've been articulating it. Which means it's not much of a defense for there being any real merit or reason for changing the OST. Which makes it completely pointless to post.

And the reality is what? Kikuchi objectively goes with anything?

When you're still using that nostalgia as the reason for why the OST change was needed, no it really doesn't.

They could've hired a different japanese composer for all I know. I'm not saying the OST change was justified out of nostalgia. Falconer isn't the only one I praise. They could've used ANY. OTHER. COMPOSER for "Z" other than Kikuchi. I'm one of those people who prefer a completely new soundtrack for an "anime sequel" than the same old one that's being overused and redundant. thaman91 couldn't have said it better!

[Kamiccolo9]

That's fine, but the "way you see the series" doesn't seem to line up with reality, given the way you've been articulating it. Which means it's not much of a defense for there being any real merit or reason for changing the OST. Which makes it completely pointless to post.

And the reality is what? Kikuchi objectively goes with anything?

When you're still using that nostalgia as the reason for why the OST change was needed, no it really doesn't.

They could've hired a different japanese composer for all I know. I'm not saying the OST change was justified out of nostalgia. Falconer isn't the only one I praise. They could've used ANY. OTHER. COMPOSER for "Z" other than Kikuchi. I'm one of those people who prefer a completely new soundtrack for an "anime sequel" than the same old one. thaman91 couldn't have said it better!

Z isn't a sequel. They just added a letter onto the title while the show was airing.

[kei17]

Yeah, and why? Just because I noticed it, doesn't mean I have to like it.

If it's just your personal preference that matters after all, don't try to bring up "facts" that neither support your opinion nor correspond with reality.

[EXBadguy]

Why do you think I put it in quotes for, huh...?

[Kamiccolo9]

Why do you think I put it in quotes for, huh...?

I'm honestly not sure. You're not making much sense.

[EXBadguy]

Yeah, and why? Just because I noticed it, doesn't mean I have to like it.

If it's just your personal preference that matters after all, don't try to bring up "facts" that neither support your opinion nor correspond with reality.

I never tried to bring out facts, you kidding me? I said it to Zephyr, and now I'll be saying this to you, I do not, and I repeat DO FUCKING NOT see DB the same way as most people here see it as. I know it's a fact that DB is just one whole series, but I just bifurcate it to two parts and treat them differently.

[Zephyr]

And the reality is what? Kikuchi objectively goes with anything?

The reality is that it's literally only one story, Z isn't a sequel, and there's no point at all given the nature of the narrative where a huge change in musical style is warranted.

The first two you're in staunch denial of because "that's how you view it", and the third you've yet to make a semblance of a case against.

I just bifurcate it to two parts and treat them differently.

Again, that's cool, you can look at things however you want. But the fact of the matter is, that's not the reality of the series, it's a faulty epistemic foundation to argue anything from, so it's completely pointless to bring this, or any standpoint derived from this, into a discussion on whether or not a change was needed.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Hell yeah! Would have been more successful actually. I was the BIGGEST dub fan of all time til I got my hands on fansubs in college then it was the opposite. Pretty much EVERY person in my dorm I shared my subs with converted to the subbed version!

Look, the problem with score isn't that it's new or American- Sailor Moon has proven that you can make superior songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoNDrrQ0k6g

But it requires a good budget and a creator who takes the time to watch the original eps and listen to the original music. The dub has one musically superior film, Bardock, and one that's nigh-equal (Trunks, cept for the rap song) but usually they didn't work out right.

If Team Faulconer had been given the entire series to watch, told they could adapt a lot of the music to their own ends and try to keep the silence in then it would have been many times better.

THIS is what you think is a piece of music superior to the original? Not the Negaverse theme? Not My Only Love, The Power Of Love, Rainy Day Man or Carry On? Not that any of those songs is better than the original one's but they are the only one's who can even be considered on par with the original score. DiC Tuxedo Mask theme is so crappy, forgettable and generic .It does fit Tuxedo Mask, because he's king of goofy and lame. But the original Tuxedo Mask is so epic and memorable. You are losing more and More of your credibility man.