Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

[coola]

Every time I read about Toriyama "being forced to write anything" I imagine him starring in real life re-creation of Misery.

Fans have been whining, writing rants and complaining since time immemorial and that was their right. At least since "Little woman" sequel authors trolled complainers and that's their right too. Toriyama might be convinced, asked, suggested, pleaded, begged to write something but the last decision was up to him. Luckily nobody holds hatchet over his knees and his family at the gunpoint. If he decided to differ his plans or add something for the sake of someone's pleasure- maybe it convinced him, maybe he is a nice sir who never thought about doing something spiteful but likes cheering people. Because had he really been so tired of Vegeta he could have done literally anything to make every fan pull his hair in rage. But he didn't. I prefer to think that he is not crying about that.

I don't know why, but after i read this, i've imagined Torishima telling Toribot he will do exact that thing, if he wont stop his silly ideas, like in Dr.Slump short comics

[StrawHatPatriot]

I wouldn't mind passing the torch be hinted at, but I still want Goku and Vegeta kicking ass.

Just give me balance like there was up till the end of the Frieza saga.

[sbk]

Only veteran fans like these characters, not because of who they are, but because of what they used to be.

Dragon Ball Super will basically tell the new fandom that there are only two guys to root for. The others are inconsequential. Which hurts the veteran fandom because it didn't use to be that way back when they were fighting a macho alien, a squad of alien nerds, an albino lizard, an inconspicuous old man and a mime, a lizard-robot and a pink condom.

At this point it's difficult to have other characters be important or be protagonists besides Goku and Vegeta.

And it's the show's damn fault. Especially in the new movies.

When every single character besides Goku and Vegeta are handled like punching bags or slapping chances by the villains, these characters won't get new fans.

Toei and Toriyama turned these amazing characters into walking corpses that don't do anything except be humiliated by the big bad's henchmen.

[Nickolaidas]

Take Krillin for example. He may not get an impressive fight, but he had use in the initial battle against Freeza and was relevant to the Cell arc by his encounter with Dr. Gero, being the only one that didn't fight the androids and still sticking up to them in a way, destroying his lab with Future Trunks, retrieving the detonator from Bulma and technically being the first person to fight against Perfect Cell as well as getting Vegeta's comatose body out of the area. We're talking about a guy that was weaker than just about every major villain in that saga and here he is being this useful and important to the plot. Power doesn't solely dictate how much someone can be important.

I couldn't disagree more.

Krillin stops being relevant from the moment Frieza achieved his third form. Being blown up by Frieza in order to be used as a mental power-up pill for Goku to become a SSJ does not make him a character. Passing senzu beans to the team because he didn't have the balls to fight and chickened out does not make him a character. Getting KOed by Cell with one kick just so that the readers can get a glimpse of his power does not make him a character (because frankly, Krillin can be KO'd with a SSJ fart by then). Doing absolutely nothing in the Boo saga besides taking Darbura's spit like an idiot and turn to stone does not make him a character. The only relevant thing he does in the Cell saga is to not activate the detonator, which actually helps Cell, not the team. He's not even a zero at that point, he's a minus.

Picture these two situations:

01) Spider man and Aunt May are surprised by the Chameleon's appearance in their home. He shoots Aunt May with his gun and she drops to the floor, bleeding. Spider-Man goes apeshit and punches Chameleon from here to Mexico.

02) Chameleon takes the form of Peter Parker to get inside May's home and murder her. May suspects that Peter is not the real Peter so she begins asking him innocent, inconspicuous questions which don't tip off the chameleon, but his answers makes her certain he's a fraud. She bakes him some cookies which contain powerful sedatives and cause him to drop unconscious. The real Peter arrives only to see that May had already KO'd the Chameleon with her own way. (This scenario actually happened in the comics)

In scenario 01, Aunt May is simply used to make Spider-Man stronger and crush the Chameleon with little effort. She takes no credit for the kill, and is just a power-up pill disguised as a human being. In scenario 02, May takes control of the situation and beats the villain in a believable and acceptable way - and most importantly, she is her own character. It's her moment, despite not being the main character, proving us that you don't need to be the main hero (or even have super powers for that matter) to be relevant to the story.

Krillin in the new movie, can't even pass the freakin senzu bean without being rescued by Vegeta half-way - he's utterly worthless and incapable of defending himself unless fighting creatures as strong as a saibaiman. To be fair, passing senzu beans is one step above YamchaTown.

[Rocketman]

Passing senzu beans to the team because he didn't have the balls to fight and chickened out does not make him a character.

That's actually a really good character moment, and in a series deeper than Dragonball it would've been explored more.

[jcogginsa]

Take Krillin for example. He may not get an impressive fight, but he had use in the initial battle against Freeza and was relevant to the Cell arc by his encounter with Dr. Gero, being the only one that didn't fight the androids and still sticking up to them in a way, destroying his lab with Future Trunks, retrieving the detonator from Bulma and technically being the first person to fight against Perfect Cell as well as getting Vegeta's comatose body out of the area. We're talking about a guy that was weaker than just about every major villain in that saga and here he is being this useful and important to the plot. Power doesn't solely dictate how much someone can be important.

I couldn't disagree more.

Krillin stops being relevant from the moment Freeza achieved his third form. Being blown up by Freeza in order to be used as a mental power-up pill for Goku to become a SSJ does not make him a character. Passing senzu beans to the team because he didn't have the balls to fight and chickened out does not make him a character. Getting KOed by Cell with one kick just so that the readers can get a glimpse of his power does not make him a character (because frankly, Krillin can be KO'd with a SSJ fart by then). Doing absolutely nothing in the Boo saga besides taking Darbura's spit like an idiot and turn to stone does not make him a character. The only relevant thing he does in the Cell saga is to not activate the detonator, which actually helps Cell, not the team. He's not even a zero at that point, he's a minus.

Character relevence is not dictated by fighting ability

[dbzfan7]

Take Krillin for example. He may not get an impressive fight, but he had use in the initial battle against Freeza and was relevant to the Cell arc by his encounter with Dr. Gero, being the only one that didn't fight the androids and still sticking up to them in a way, destroying his lab with Future Trunks, retrieving the detonator from Bulma and technically being the first person to fight against Perfect Cell as well as getting Vegeta's comatose body out of the area. We're talking about a guy that was weaker than just about every major villain in that saga and here he is being this useful and important to the plot. Power doesn't solely dictate how much someone can be important.

I couldn't disagree more.

Krillin stops being relevant from the moment Freeza achieved his third form. Being blown up by Freeza in order to be used as a mental power-up pill for Goku to become a SSJ does not make him a character. Passing senzu beans to the team because he didn't have the balls to fight and chickened out does not make him a character. Getting KOed by Cell with one kick just so that the readers can get a glimpse of his power does not make him a character (because frankly, Krillin can be KO'd with a SSJ fart by then). Doing absolutely nothing in the Boo saga besides taking Darbura's spit like an idiot and turn to stone does not make him a character. The only relevant thing he does in the Cell saga is to not activate the detonator, which actually helps Cell, not the team. He's not even a zero at that point, he's a minus.

Character relevence is not dictated by fighting ability

In Dragon Ball it pretty much is. The stronger you are, the more relevant you are. The strongest are always the most relevant to the plot, while the weaker are not nearly as important.

[Nickolaidas]

That's actually a really good character moment, and in a series deeper than Dragonball it would've been explored more.

Okay, I'll rephrase the particular statement, since you're right: Chickening out of the fight in order not to get clobbered like everyone else *does* make Krillin stand out as a character, but in a bad way. As dbzfan7 correctly stated, relevance is dictated by strength in dbz, so a character who is too afraid to fight ends up becoming even less likeable than usual (hell, in most shows this goes). So yeah, Krillin shows personality - a rather negative one. Not one of his best moments; actually, I think it was his worst in dbz.

[dbgtFO]

I see no reason for Goku, Veggie, Beerus and Whis not to go around and explore the other universes as literally everyone wants them to, and the rest of the cast to deal with any threats in Universe 7. If the two plot lines were properly developed and they found believable opponents for the Dragon Team present in universe 7, then I don't see why this couldn't be a good way to balance out the screen-time between the huge cast of characters.

Yeah, I too thought, that could be a way to handle it; have Goku and Vegeta(and maybe Whis and Beerus too) go to one of the other universes and face an arc villain there, while at the same time Gohan and co. also have to deal with a villain.
They later find out the villains are connected somehow and so defeats the two of them, when Goku and co. return. Something like that.

[Rocketman]

Okay, I'll rephrase the particular statement, since you're right: Chickening out of the fight in order not to get clobbered like everyone else *does* make Krillin stand out as a character, but in a bad way.

No, I mean in that it happens cause of the warning from the future. We know Krillin jumps in in that timeline, 'cause the Androids kill him.

[soulnova]

To be honest that part with Krillin is one of my favorite scenes about him.

[Nickolaidas]

Okay, I'll rephrase the particular statement, since you're right: Chickening out of the fight in order not to get clobbered like everyone else *does* make Krillin stand out as a character, but in a bad way.

No, I mean in that it happens cause of the warning from the future. We know Krillin jumps in in that timeline, 'cause the Androids kill him.

I was under the impression that they were stalked and picked apart one by one in the mirai timiline.

[dragonballhero]

I would like to see Goku and Vegeta still kick some *** from time to time, but all the same, I'd really like to see Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all get some action in for a fight. Also, if Super does happen to take place by the time Goku and co. meet Uub, I'd kind of like him to be the "new" "de facto" leader of the...."Super" Fighters(?) Or at least, by some chance, if they really want to keep Goku all "front-and-center" still and whatnot, maybe make Uub his "second-in command" in a sense.

[flashback0180]

Pan was one ofthe rreasons why gt failed.

[Lord Beerus]

Pan was one ofthe rreasons why gt failed.

The writing of Pan's character was one of the reasons GT failed.

[ABED]

After 500 plus episodes, to switch the focus to Uub of all characters is a terrible idea. I know many are sweet on the idea of the next generation taking over, but it seems more like they like the idea for its own sake and it's not a matter of execution or the story. Other characters than Goku can be given important things to do, without removing Goku from the frontman role. I'd actually like to see some subtle development of Goku's character and not simply further adventures.

And Kuririn not fighting a losing battle doesn't make Kuririn a coward. It would've been a needless sacrifice (a redundant term-, but unfortunately neccessary). Him giving senzu was a far more sensible option. I'd like to see things like that instead of fighters just being macho. What does it accomplish to try and fight a battle he knows he can't possibly win?

He's not even a zero at that point, he's a minus.

He didn't need to help, it affected the story, which was the point.

[Nickolaidas]

After 500 plus episodes, to switch the focus to Uub of all characters is a terrible idea. I know many are sweet on the idea of the next generation taking over, but it seems more like they like the idea for its own sake and it's not a matter of execution or the story. Other characters than Goku can be given important things to do, without removing Goku from the frontman role. I'd actually like to see some subtle development of Goku's character and not simply further adventures.

And Kuririn not fighting a losing battle doesn't make Kuririn a coward. It would've been a needless sacrifice (a redundant term-, but unfortunately neccessary). Him giving senzu was a far more sensible option. I'd like to see things like that instead of fighters just being macho. What does it accomplish to try and fight a battle he knows he can't possibly win?

Selfless sacrifice, persistence despite the hopeless odds and camaraderie are among the most common of ethical values DBZ has. A character who does not express those qualities is usually meant to look in a bad light in this particular show. Which is why most people were getting pissed when Vegeta couldn't bring himself to fight Broly and was shitting bricks.

[Doctor.]

After 500 plus episodes, to switch the focus to Uub of all characters is a terrible idea. I know many are sweet on the idea of the next generation taking over, but it seems more like they like the idea for its own sake and it's not a matter of execution or the story. Other characters than Goku can be given important things to do, without removing Goku from the frontman role. I'd actually like to see some subtle development of Goku's character and not simply further adventures.

And Kuririn not fighting a losing battle doesn't make Kuririn a coward. It would've been a needless sacrifice (a redundant term-, but unfortunately neccessary). Him giving senzu was a far more sensible option. I'd like to see things like that instead of fighters just being macho. What does it accomplish to try and fight a battle he knows he can't possibly win?

Selfless sacrifice, persistence despite the hopeless odds and camaraderie are among the most common of ethical values DBZ has. A character who does not express those qualities is usually meant to look in a bad light in this particular show. Which is why most people were getting pissed when Vegeta couldn't bring himself to fight Broly and was shitting bricks.

People weren't pissed at Vegeta for not demonstrating those qualities. People were pissed because that was completely out of character.

[Nickolaidas]

Do you think that Gohan being scared shitless while Nappa was killing off the Z Team left and right made him gain fans? Made people think he was an awesome character?

[dbzfan7]

Do you think that Gohan being scared shitless while Nappa was killing off the Z Team left and right made him gain fans? Made people think he was an awesome character?

I see nothing wrong with that. Sure probably not as much as someone who's kicking ass, but a lot of people would sympathize with Gohan there. He's a kid and he's terrified. Piccolo got angry with him, which brought Gohan down further, making him feel like a failure. Vegeta though isn't supposed to be a chicken shit, and in the first Broly movie he cowers and blubbers like a baby.