Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Hitiro]

I just don't think Goku would be amazed if he could do that without effort, if he has to become a SSJ it still means that he actually has to put a bit of effort in to reach the level where he can 1 shot Freeza. He might even have to put forth something like 10%-20% of his SSJ power to manage that feat, so it's decently impressive when the Kaioshin were all defeated by Buu. Any other way I don't really see how it seems amazing.

Not really much effort when he can use Super Saiyan as if it's his natural form.

Essentially this. Super Saiyan is nothing special at this point in the story; the kids have it (arguably mastered), all of the adults have it mastered, they also all have Super Saiyan 2, and Goku even has Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan 1 is nowhere near Goku's full capacity and thus one-shotting Freeza is something that only requires a fraction of Goku's true power.

It doesn't really matter what the amount of effort is to one-shot Freeza here. The point is that there are beings other than Piccolo who are naturally stronger than Freeza. Goku and the other Saiyan's are not naturally stronger than Freeza. They have to rely on transformations to surpass what was the strongest being in the universe(Excluding gods) so that is why it is impressive. Now if Goku and the other Saiyan's were now naturally stronger than Freeza without transformations then yes, that isn't very impressive. Of course you can say that this feat isn't anything special when you include transformations. But transformations are really a cheat to get massively stronger than your natural strength anyway so of course Goku and the others are going to discern strong guys against their base forms as well.

Even if we look at things like GT we have Goku calling people strong when he is literally not using any transformations and then proceeds to destroy them when he transforms. It doesn't change the fact he thinks they are naturally strong.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

You're assuming Goku doesn't think of Super Saiyan as his natural power. We can look at it that way, but does Goku? The main point here is that one-shotting Freeza is not something out of Goku's capabilities and it's completely arbitrary to say Goku has to be weaker than Freeza without transformations because of mere shock.

[Hitiro]

You're assuming Goku doesn't think of Super Saiyan as his natural power. We can look at it that way, but does Goku? The main point here is that one-shotting Freeza is not something out of Goku's capabilities and it's completely arbitrary to say Goku has to be weaker than Freeza without transformations because of mere shock.

Then why is it a shock to him and Vegeta? Why does he even react if it is not a big deal? I mean he also makes a similar reaction to Gohan's power after the Rou Kaioshin power-up and he even says at that point "And he isn't even a Super Saiyan." So it's fair to say that he is impressed by anything surpassing his base form without transformations included. It seems completely useless for Goku and the other Saiyan's to be surprised/impressed unless the Kaioshin surpasses them in some aspect. And I would imagine if Vegeta could defeat Freeza in with his base form he would be the first to retort to the Kaioshin stating they could also do that. Yet the comment made him shut up.

[Truhan]

Perhaps Beerus was commenting the fact that Goku wasn't transformed, like he had seen him in his battle against Freeza through Whis. It doesn't have to be about power all the time, you know, at least in BoG. As far as I know, Base Saiyans are already stronger than Namek Freeza, except for Trunks and Goten, who could be about equal to him (according to the 2008 Special). Let's try to put this in numbers though, using increases of 1.25, 1.6 and 2 as a rule:

[Freeza]
SSJ Goku - 150'000k
Freeza - 120'000k - the power of reference for Beerus.

[Future Trunks]
SSJ Goku - 240'000k
Mecha Freeza - 150'000k - his powered up self.
SSJ Trunks - 150'000k

[Androids]
SSJ Vegeta - 300'000k
SSJ Trunks - 240'000k
Piccolo - 240'000k
Android 17 (100%) - 480'000k

[Cell]
Piccolo - 480'000k - post Kami assimilation
Imperfect Cell - 600'000k
Semi-Perfect Cell - 750'000k
Grade II SSJ Vegeta - 960'000k
Perfect Cell - 1'200'000k

[Cell Games]
Piccolo - 750'000k - post-RoSaT
SSJ Vegeta - 960'000k - his power remains the same because he's not a grade above.
SSJ Goku - 1'200'000k
SSJ Gohan - 1'200'000k
SSJ2 Gohan - 2'400'000k
Super Perfect Cell - 2'400'000k

---

[Buu Saga]
SSJ2 Goku - 3'000'000k

Their base is somewhere around 30'000k, considering that SSJ2 is 100 times the base battle power. It's 10 times more than their Namek selves, which isn't enough to touch Freeza at 50% of his power. End of Headcanon.

[LowRyder2005]

I'm honestly fine with the Saiyans being below Freeza in base (or, at least, in base and at bare minimum). Seems this was the intent and it honestly makes much more sense than the contrary.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Then why is it a shock to him and Vegeta? Why does he even react if it is not a big deal?

Because someone who can one-shot Freeza is not common? Look, if nothing in the scene explicitly states Base Goku/Vegeta can't one-shot Freeza, it's not as objective as you're making it out to be.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

This may be true but Goku is a very hard trainer.Why would he slack off he had no canon/filler reason too.

Neither I nor anyone else said that Goku wouldn't get that strong through lack of trying. Only that no matter how hard he trains, the strength he gets from it is not predictable. "But Goku trained really hard for X years" is not proof for or against anything.

Your saying there is no proof to how hard Goku trains.I thought about it and I see what you mean. Throughout the series Goku trained in many different ways so it unpredictable.

[buutenks]

Perhaps Beerus was commenting the fact that Goku wasn't transformed, like he had seen him in his battle against Freeza through Whis. It doesn't have to be about power all the time, you know, at least in BoG. As far as I know, Base Saiyans are already stronger than Namek Freeza, except for Trunks and Goten, who could be about equal to him (according to the 2008 Special). Let's try to put this in numbers though, using increases of 1.25, 1.6 and 2 as a rule:

[Freeza]
SSJ Goku - 150'000k
Freeza - 120'000k - the power of reference for Beerus.

[Future Trunks]
SSJ Goku - 240'000k
Mecha Freeza - 150'000k - his powered up self.
SSJ Trunks - 150'000k

[Androids]
SSJ Vegeta - 300'000k
SSJ Trunks - 240'000k
Piccolo - 240'000k
Android 17 (100%) - 480'000k

[Cell]
Piccolo - 480'000k - post Kami assimilation
Imperfect Cell - 600'000k
Semi-Perfect Cell - 750'000k
Grade II SSJ Vegeta - 960'000k
Perfect Cell - 1'200'000k

[Cell Games]
Piccolo - 750'000k - post-RoSaT
SSJ Vegeta - 960'000k - his power remains the same because he's not a grade above.
SSJ Goku - 1'200'000k
SSJ Gohan - 1'200'000k
SSJ2 Gohan - 2'400'000k
Super Perfect Cell - 2'400'000k

---

[Buu Saga]
SSJ2 Goku - 3'000'000k

Their base is somewhere around 30'000k, considering that SSJ2 is 100 times the base battle power. It's 10 times more than their Namek selves, which isn't enough to touch Freeza at 50% of his power. End of Headcanon.

I agree with this.

Heck even if u double the PL or triple them,base saiyans are still below namek saga freeza.

[Truhan]

I have to make some corrections to that list, but I'll do it in the Battle Powers' thread. The rules will be the same: increases of 1.25, 1.6 and 2, following that order with different starting points.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

[Cell Games]
SSJ Goku - 1'200'000k
SSJ Gohan - 1'200'000k

Gohan was stronger than Goku at the Cell Games.

[Truhan]

Yeah, I know. That's why I said that corrections are going to be made. When I'm lazy, I just lump close characters together.

[Darkprince410]

[Cell Games]
Piccolo - 750'000k - post-RoSaT
SSJ Vegeta - 960'000k - his power remains the same because he's not a grade above.
SSJ Goku - 1'200'000k
SSJ Gohan - 1'200'000k
SSJ2 Gohan - 2'400'000k
Super Perfect Cell - 2'400'000k

Since you're saying that Vegeta's strength remained the same from his Ssj 2nd Grade form, Goku (and thus Gohan) should be over twice Vegeta's strength. When Goku powered up for Korin to get a comparison of his strength with Cell's, he commented that it was about half his power that he used. Vegeta, having no idea that Goku was only using half his strength, commented to himself that Goku had surpassed him yet again.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.4-5
Context: After powering up and almost destroying Karin’s tower…
Goku: “That just now was about half power. What do you think?”
Karin: “Half power…?! What a fearsome guy you are…How strong will you become before you’re satisfied…?!”

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P13.1-2
Context: After sensing half of Full Power Super Saiyan Goku’s max power from a distance.
Vegeta (to self): “Damn you, Kakarot… It’s always like this… He’s always a step ahead of me…! It drives me crazy…Just when I think I’ve caught up, he widens the lead again…”

So if you're putting Vegeta at 960 million like that, then Goku would need to be pushing the 2 billion mark, not just 1.2 billion.

[Hitiro]

Then why is it a shock to him and Vegeta? Why does he even react if it is not a big deal?

Because someone who can one-shot Freeza is not common? Look, if nothing in the scene explicitly states Base Goku/Vegeta can't one-shot Freeza, it's not as objective as you're making it out to be.

It still doesn't explain why it would shut him up if both himself and the other Sayians were equally capable of doing it in their base forms. It would make more sense that Kaioshin is a opponent that they would have to transform against to beat. You're right that it is uncommon for someone to be that strong but there is no reason for them to be shocked by the fact. If anything they would be surprised rather than shocked. Because it's not like there haven't been stronger opponents than Freeza after he was defeated. There have literally been 6 villians since Freeza's defeat who have been stronger than him. There was also Piccolo showing much more power than the Saiyans after his fusing with Kami. Like I said, unless the Kaioshin is superior to the Saiyans in some way there is no reason for them to be shocked.

[Truhan]

Darkprince, those numbers are outdated. Check the Battle Powers Thread for the current ones. The problem remains though, but don't take "half his power" so strictly, because it's not 600. What took Goku to that 1'200'000k was an increase of 1.25 over his previous 960 (in the RoSaT), while 960 was part of Grade II SSJ Vegeta. Without said Grade II, Vegeta is still 1.25 behind Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Then why is it a shock to him and Vegeta? Why does he even react if it is not a big deal?

Because someone who can one-shot Freeza is not common? Look, if nothing in the scene explicitly states Base Goku/Vegeta can't one-shot Freeza, it's not as objective as you're making it out to be.

It still doesn't explain why it would shut him up if both himself and the other Sayians were equally capable of doing it in their base forms. It would make more sense that Kaioshin is a opponent that they would have to transform against to beat. You're right that it is uncommon for someone to be that strong but there is no reason for them to be shocked by the fact. If anything they would be surprised rather than shocked. Because it's not like there haven't been stronger opponents than Freeza after he was defeated. There have literally been 6 villians since Freeza's defeat who have been stronger than him. There was also Piccolo showing much more power than the Saiyans after his fusing with Kami. Like I said, unless the Kaioshin is superior to the Saiyans in some way there is no reason for them to be shocked.

And yet the same Kaioshin who can defeat Freeza with ease is shown to be shocked and amazed at Base Vegeta's power when he decimates Pui-Pui.

So being shocked doesn't really mean anything in regards to "naturally" being stronger than anyone. I think people are reading into the statement a bit too much. A guy that they couldn't sense said he could easily defeat Freeza and Goku was impressed by this fact. That's it.

[Darkprince410]

Darkprince, those numbers are outdated. Check the Battle Powers Thread for the current ones. The problem remains though, but don't take "half his power" so strictly, because it's not 600. What took Goku to that 1'200'000k was an increase of 1.25 over his previous 960 (in the RoSaT), while 960 was part of Grade II SSJ Vegeta. Without said Grade II, Vegeta is still 1.25 behind Goku.

Nevertheless, if you have Vegeta at 960 million for his Ssj 2nd Grade form, then Goku should still be around twice that, not simply 1.25x stronger. It's one of the few post-battle power time periods when we're given a somewhat specific mention of how much stronger one person is over the other, so it wouldn't make sense to "not take it strictly". Sure, you can finagle a bit with what Goku meant by "about half", but you're still going to be looking at something around the range of 40-60% of his power (though likely closer to 45%-55%), which means if you have Vegeta's strength, at the time he made that comment, at 960 million, then Goku needs to be in the range of twice that or higher. Vegeta stated that Goku had surpassed him again, not knowing that Goku had only used about half his strength, thus ~50% FpSsj Goku > Ssj 2nd Grade Vegeta

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It still doesn't explain why it would shut him up if both himself and the other Sayians were equally capable of doing it in their base forms.

Depends how you interpret the scene. I interpreted Vegeta shutting up because of Kaioshin reading his mind, which is what Vegeta comments on afterwards, at least from what I recall.

[Hitiro]

And yet the same Kaioshin who can defeat Freeza with ease is shown to be shocked and amazed at Base Vegeta's power when he decimates Pui-Pui.

So being shocked doesn't really mean anything in regards to "naturally" being stronger than anyone. I think people are reading into the statement a bit too much. A guy that they couldn't sense said he could easily defeat Freeza and Goku was impressed by this fact. That's it.

There is literally no problem with the Kaioshin being shocked at Base Vegeta's power because he has never seen mortals be that strong. Even if they aren't as powerful as Freeza. And we all know that the Kaioshin's estimations of Babidi's troops wasn't exactly accurate as he would be able to tell that Pui Pui was no match for Vegeta if he wasn't so afraid of Babidi and his henchmen with the reputation surrounding them. I mean it's not like this hasn't happened before. Trunks also was wondering if Mr. Satan was actually strong even though he should know the answer. But obviously reputation can distort the truth some times.

Goku and the others have all faced characters stronger than Freeza anyway. So there is no reason for them to be shocked at something other than someone being stronger than them, if only in their base form. Had Goku and the other Saiyans all have been similar to the Kaioshin in regards to being able to one-shot Freeza, even in base form, then there is literally no reason for them to be shocked. And I don't know why this is being disputed now anyway seeing as BoG and DBS already suggest Base Goku couldn't handle Freeza.

And if you want to go further then there is no way the combined population of Earth and Namek would have enough Genki to defeat Pure Boo if Goku's base form was stronger than 100% Freeza either.

[Truhan]

Nevertheless, if you have Vegeta at 960 million for his Ssj 2nd Grade form, then Goku should still be around twice that, not simply 1.25x stronger. It's one of the few post-battle power time periods when we're given a somewhat specific mention of how much stronger one person is over the other, so it wouldn't make sense to "not take it strictly". Sure, you can finagle a bit with what Goku meant by "about half", but you're still going to be looking at something around the range of 40-60% of his power (though likely closer to 45%-55%), which means if you have Vegeta's strength, at the time he made that comment, at 960 million, then Goku needs to be in the range of twice that or higher. Vegeta stated that Goku had surpassed him again, not knowing that Goku had only used about half his strength, thus ~50% FpSsj Goku > Ssj 2nd Grade Vegeta

What do you really think is a 50% SSJ? Between SSJ, its grades and SSJ2 there is a range that cannot be doubled, or else it would be SSJ2 or surpass it. Therefore, it needs to be something else. Strength is what I'm listing, while Power can be used and amplified, so when Goku showed "half of his power", he was only showing his resources. However, in terms of strength, that he is capable of being 1.25 times above Vegeta as a SSJ, while the latter was a Grade II (improving strength and speed), is quite the accomplishment.

[Darkprince410]

What do you really think is a 50% SSJ? Between SSJ, its grades and SSJ2 there is a range that cannot be doubled, or else it would be SSJ2 or surpass it. Therefore, it needs to be something else. Strength is what I'm listing, while Power can be used and amplified, so when Goku showed "half of his power", he was only showing his resources. However, in terms of strength, that he is capable of being 1.25 times above Vegeta as a SSJ, while the latter was a Grade II (improving strength and speed), is quite the accomplishment.

Why are you thinking that they need to be doubled or more? Goku's just that strong because his base is just that much higher than Vegeta's, so that while Vegeta's using a form that may push past the 50x multiplier of Super Saiya-jin (and, by extension, FpSsj) he's still that much weaker than Goku.

The two situations are as simple as it comes in interpretation. Goku says he uses about half his strength, and Vegeta (w/o knowing that Goku was only using half) says that Goku surpassed him. Thus, Goku's best is somewhere around twice Vegeta's best.