The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

[Desassina]

Toriyama's description of the elements of ki suggests that it's not like that. All the different elements of ki come together to determine an individual's total ki level, and reducing one amount is going to reduce their entire ki level as a result. Likewise, not everyone's ki elements are going to be proportionally equal to one another, so just because Kibitoshin being drained of his genki hurt him so much doesn't mean that Gohan necessarily would.

Could you please point me to them? It's not like I needed the extra material to support my claim, because the manga explained it quite well. Goku got tired and lost his power. Since power is Ki, and Genki represents their stamina, by having the latter restored, he was allowed to power up. How much further do we need to complicate things? As for Gohan not being as powerless as Kibitoshin... I already explained this in another thread: if the Genki-dama takes a percentage of their stamina, the characters with a higher amount are still going to be above those who have a lower amount. 90% of Gohan's 1'000 is 100, while the same percentage of Kibitoshin's 500 would be 50 (for example).

[Darkprince410]

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

What is the key to winning in battle?

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

11 Energy, Courage, and Right-Mindedness — The word “energy” [genki] is well-known, but if one asks if you do not have energy if you have even one sickness [byōki], it is difficult to come up with an answer. There are people who are healthy yet do not have any energy, and there are people who are sick, yet full of energy. Plus, even among people who have roughly the same power, for example, there were people who gritted their teeth and stood their ground when Piccolo Daimaō attacked them, yet there were also people who trembled and fled. Thinking about it this way, perhaps you will understand that a variety of different “ki” are indispensable in battle. In the world of Chinese martial arts, exemplified by T’ai-chi Ch’uan, ki training and control is given great importance.

In Dragon Ball, the dark mage Babidi invented a machine that measures and absorbs ki, but current science cannot measure ki levels or store it anywhere. However, when someone cheers you on, you can “receive energy and courage [yūki]” from them. “Ki” is something that cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it is there.

[Kamiccolo9]

I like how the last sentence in that quote pretty much means that Toriyama has established the Power of Friendship (tm) as a thing in his work.

[Desassina]

I also like how it doesn't contradict a thing of what I said, or the manga for that matter. For someone's Ki to disappear by using 100% of his Genki (Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho against Nappa, for example), the formula could be something like this:

Ki = Genki * Yuki * Shoki, where 0 stamina would pretty much erase his Ki. However, with Genki, one's power can increase by working with the others instead (courage, right-mindedness), and Kid Buu had pretty much "infinite" stamina, without fear or remorse, although with questionable intent.

We're merely going by extra material, when not all things considered are that linear. Take Potara fusion being one power multiplied by another, for example. Change the scaling to another and the characters may as well remain the same, or even power down.

[Darkprince410]

I also like how it doesn't contradict a thing of what I said, or the manga for that matter. For someone's Ki to disappear by using 100% of his Genki (Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho against Nappa, for example), the formula could be something like this:

Even in the context of just the manga, it's far simpler to see it as each element of ki just being a part of the whole, and when one portion is used up or donated, it drops the entirety of the level. Everyone was wore out from how much genki they donated, and therefore their entire ki level dropped from where it was normally. If genki were just some cap to ki, and genki was such a large portion of ki (as you suggest), why wouldn't Goten and Trunks have fused to donate?

[miguelnuva1]

If I go by facts using the manga, then no, Vegeta is nowhere near Goku's strength either. In terms of dialogue and actual feats, Vegeta falls well short of Goku in terms of strength, and Goku, in turn, is no match for Evil Buu or any of his absorbed evolutions (Gotenks Buu, Gohan Buu, etc). The anime, with all the random filler content, is contradictory to itself, so if you go by the msot valid source, Goku is stronger than Vegeta, and Goku is no match for Gohan Buu or any other forms of Evil Buu. Simple as that.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree again. because I feel kid buu>=buuhan. And Goku>kid buu>gohan>super buu. I know already you disagree but I don't think of fusion as anything other then addition. We can at least agree buu saga wasn't the most clear on power levels,as nobody debates which form of cell or Freeza is stronger (accept mecha Freeza vs 100% for some)....Good day to you.[/quote]

Buu saga was very clear your making it complicated.[/quote]

If it's very clear why is everyone not on board about fat vs super vs kid buu and gohan vs goku? In cell and Freeza's arcs you don't wonder Freeza 1rst vs 2nd form. I'm not making anything complicated, if anything is,your random comment is. It's out of nowhere man.[/quote]

1. The board can't agree because we have some fans who are dub watchers, some who were sub watchers and some who were manga readers. I use to think Kid Buu>SSJ3 Goku=Ultimate Gohan before I came here but after re watching the anime, reading the manga and getting other outside info as much as I hate to admit it Goku and Kid Buu get out classed once SSJ Gotenks post rosat show up.

Buu saga was very clear.

SSJ3 Goku> Fat Buu> everyone else.

SSJ Gotenks can be weaker or stronger than Goku as long as he is strong enough to beat Buu.

Super Buu comes in the scene. Piccolo doesn't want the boys to fight, later Goku doesn't want to fight Super Buu without fusion.

Super Buu>SSJ3 Goku> Fat Buu> everyone else.

Gotenks goes SSJ3 and is able to beat Buu down in 5 mins. Gohan is later said to be at least a little bit stronger.

Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>/=Super Buu>SSJ3 Goku> Fat Buu> everyone else.

Later Buu starts absorbing everyone and Vegito dominates him.

Super Vegito>Buuhan>Buutenks>Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>/=Super Buu>SSJ3 Goku> Fat Buu> everyone else.

Finally Goku says he can beat the orginal fat Buu and the new Kid Buu bit Kid Buu is a lot tougher to trap and catch.

Super Vegito>Buuhan>Buutenks>Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>/=Super Buu>SSJ3 Goku>Kid Buu> Fat Buu> everyone else.

Kid Buu is able to push the Spirit Bomb back because

A. Only Genki is used not the entire ki

and

B. Goku couldn't push it. The bomb had enough power to kill Buu bit with only one side pushing back it couldn't connect.

[Desassina]

Even in the context of just the manga, it's far simpler to see it as each element of ki just being a part of the whole, and when one portion is used up or donated, it drops the entirety of the level. Everyone was wore out from how much genki they donated, and therefore their entire ki level dropped from where it was normally. If genki were just some cap to ki, and genki was such a large portion of ki (as you suggest), why wouldn't Goten and Trunks have fused to donate?

This isn't something to counter all other points, because I had already thought about Goten and Trunks. They just didn't fuse, period. It doesn't have to mean a thing. All other scenarios still work. When Ki increases, it's not necessarily Genki that increases as well. However, when Genki decreases, so does Ki, because it's part of a bigger "entity". Since there's nothing telling us that Gotenks has so much more stamina than both kids, but power instead, the point is null (they can transform to SSJ3 when both kids cannot).

[Darkprince410]

Even in the context of just the manga, it's far simpler to see it as each element of ki just being a part of the whole, and when one portion is used up or donated, it drops the entirety of the level. Everyone was wore out from how much genki they donated, and therefore their entire ki level dropped from where it was normally. If genki were just some cap to ki, and genki was such a large portion of ki (as you suggest), why wouldn't Goten and Trunks have fused to donate?

This isn't something to counter all other points, because I had already thought about Goten and Trunks. They just didn't fuse, period. It doesn't have to mean a thing. All other scenarios still work. When Ki increases, it's not necessarily Genki that increases as well. However, when Genki decreases, so does Ki, because it's part of a bigger "entity". Since there's nothing telling us that Gotenks has so much more stamina than both kids, but power instead, the point is null (they can transform to SSJ3 when both kids cannot).

That's what I said though, that genki is just part of what makes ki, so when it decreases, ki as a whole decreases as well. You were the one that mentioned that genki was some overall cap to ki, so if it worked the way you described it, then fusing into Gotenks would result in a far higher level of genki, as their ki level was far higher (and thus their ki level would have to be higher to serve as the cap for it).

[Desassina]

... Genki puts a cap on Ki, which only means that, if we consider multiplication, anything below 1 decreases it. I don't know what SSJ3 is supposed to increase, but I know that it puts a cap on stamina, and that Goku has used it long enough to be drained. He only transformed into SSJ once he got his stamina restored... I can't even remember why we started this discussion, but I guess it had to do with Gohan's genki not being enough to defeat Kid Buu. Consider a different scaling from Kid Buu's perspective:

- when Kid Buu's overall Ki (1) is greater than most people's Genki, the latter has to be below 1. Divide that by every person who has contributed, and it gets even lower, which means it's only going to cap their power relative to Kid Buu's. Gohan's other types of Ki would have to be much stronger for him to match Kid Buu, but there's no indication that they were, so we're merely conjecturing at this point.

[Darkprince410]

Gohan's other types of Ki would have to be much stronger for him to match Kid Buu, but there's no indication that they were, so we're merely conjecturing at this point.

We know though that his total ki would have to be greater than Pure Buu's because all evidence shown puts him significantly stronger than Pure Buu in terms of power. If Gohan is stronger (which all evidence in the manga points to) yet the genki he contributed wasn't strong enough to beat Pure Buu, then that means that all the other elements of his ki are just that strong that they make up for whatever difference lies between his genki and his total ki value.

[Desassina]

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I can use the manga just fine and prove that "Ultimate" Gohan isn't stronger than Kid Buu. However, we're way past this thread's original intent, so I would appreciate if this discussion ended here.

[rereboy]

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta, you're not helping by going "nuh-uh" on people. Genki = stamina = energy, it's all the same thing, just like power would be Ki.

No, it's not. Toriyama himself has explained that Ki is composed of various parts, all of them essential to actually have Ki, and Genki is just one of them.

[Desassina]

No, it's not. Toriyama himself has explained that Ki is composed of various parts, all of them essential to actually have Ki, and Genki is just one of them.

So, adding to what I said, Ki is composed of Genki and other types of Ki. If Ki is power, and Genki is stamina or energy, then power is made of stamina as well. We weren't disagreeing, so why did you have to backtrack to perpetuate the argument?

[rereboy]

No, it's not. Toriyama himself has explained that Ki is composed of various parts, all of them essential to actually have Ki, and Genki is just one of them.

So, adding to what I said, Ki is composed of Genki and other types of Ki. If Ki is power, and Genki is stamina or energy, then power is made of stamina as well. We weren't disagreeing, so why did you have to backtrack to perpetuate the argument?

Because the argument perpetually used regarding Genki in the Buu saga is that the Genki Dama, despite having Gohan's Genki, still wasn't enough to kill Kid Buu. Fans who think that Genki = Ki find in this an argument to say that Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan and stronger than Super Buu. However, the truth is that Genki =/= Ki. Genki is just a component, a part of Ki, and Ki is greater than just Genki, so there's actually no argument to be made from that to conclude that Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan.

So, yeah, it's actually important to stress this difference.

[Desassina]

But there's no argument to be made that Gohan is stronger than Kid Buu based on Genki as well. People were defending it based on other information. Notice that the mistake you pointed out wasn't even mine. I always considered Genki to put a cap on Ki, but not because Genki = Ki. Seriously, if you want to argue about Kid Buu, then open a new thread. I won't discuss that here. I'm new, but I have read some old threads, and the impression that I got is that people have too much Genki to waste trying to defend a notion that not even the current material supports.

[rereboy]

But there's no argument to be made that Gohan is stronger than Kid Buu based on Genki as well.

There isn't one based on Genki, but there are other arguments to that effect.

And I merely explained/clarified because it's important information, especially to new users to the forum. That's basically it. The fact that I directed this explanation to you, doesn't mean anything other than me trying to help the fandom in general in regards to what is known about Ki and Genki and the conclusions we can make from it.

[Desassina]

There isn't one based on Genki, but there are other arguments to that effect.
And I merely explained/clarified because it's important information, especially to new users to the forum.

It wouldn't be fun having them run around with baseless arguments, but I guess we're past that point. Anyway, I was just reminded of something: isn't Gohan's stamina one of his best Ki, as in, not wasting it at all? What would SSJ increase on top of his Ultimate form? (because we agreed it would be possible in another thread) Courage, right-mindedness? Would it waste his energy out of not having practiced with it?

[Tectorman]

*Conversation about Genki vs Ki* Not touching that.

...

Kuririn couldn't even do damage to Nappa during that fight apart from with the Kienzan. And the only time he could land a hit was with Nappa being distracted. Even if it was a scratch from Trunks it was clear that it did something and Trunks was able to actually hit Vegeta while Vegeta was prepared. So no, I would definitely not place Trunks as more than twice as weak as Vegeta.

Not counting the Kienzan, Krillin landed three hits, only two of which happened while Nappa was paying attention to another combatant. And he did also successfully dodge Nappa's attack while Nappa was focused on him. So while I agree that power level differences as minute as a quarter can result in a significant advantage for the stronger fighter, that doesn't mean that every single close, proximate, or even (in Krillin and Nappa's case) peripheral battle in the series has to exist within that gap. And if Krillin is able to bridge that expansive gap even just once (I refer again to the dodge that he accomplished with no mitigating factors), then I have no issues rating Trunks as far below Vegeta as I do. And that's before we take into account that Vegeta testing Trunks's abilities doesn't even qualify as sparring, let alone an actual battle.

Characters have been shown to utterly decimate others with a mere gap of 25% Trunks is definitely below this. A good example of this is Kui against Vegeta. If there was this much of a difference between them Vegeta would be casually dodging every blow thrown at him just by swaying. The Namek arc is a perfect example of this. The Ginyu Force, all being around 40,000, were toyed with by Goku who was 90,000 at the time.

Problem with all of that is that those are actual battles, under circumstances that do not resemble a father getting a feel for the first time ever for how good a fighter his son is. If this fight was an actual fight with at least some stakes above a trip to an amusement park involved, then I might be inclined to rate Vegeta's opponent differently.

But in these circumstances, I'm not seeing that Vegeta was putting forth anything resembling his best effort. Which is not to say that I think he was suppressing his power (not that I entirely discount that as a possibility), merely that he wasn't utilizing his full skill. Actually, scratch that. We know Vegeta wasn't giving his all. Vegeta trying his best isn't defending by mere bobbing and weaving. Vegeta trying his best isn't attacking with one reactionary hit. Vegeta trying his best wouldn't say "Oops." regretting the one hit he did throw out. So we know he isn't using his full skill. And if he's only using a fraction of his full skill, then why is it so impossible that he's instead using a fraction of a fraction of his full skill, such that Trunks can land a hit through his deliberately meager guard?

[buutenks]

Sigh,alive ssj3 goku who cant bring out his full ssj3 power is fighting evenly with kid buu and even says if he could get to full power hed wipe the floor with kid buu.Now he tells vegeta that even him and vegeta combined wouldnt even have a slim chance vs super buu and gohan beats super buu senselessly.

So gohan>Super buu>>kid buu.

[Hitiro]

Not counting the Kienzan, Krillin landed three hits, only two of which happened while Nappa was paying attention to another combatant. And he did also successfully dodge Nappa's attack while Nappa was focused on him. So while I agree that power level differences as minute as a quarter can result in a significant advantage for the stronger fighter, that doesn't mean that every single close, proximate, or even (in Krillin and Nappa's case) peripheral battle in the series has to exist within that gap. And if Krillin is able to bridge that expansive gap even just once (I refer again to the dodge that he accomplished with no mitigating factors), then I have no issues rating Trunks as far below Vegeta as I do. And that's before we take into account that Vegeta testing Trunks's abilities doesn't even qualify as sparring, let alone an actual battle.

Three? I only count two. Where is this third blow he landed while Nappa wasn't paying attention to another combatant? The only other ones I think you could be talking about was the Ki blast he launched at the beginning which both Nappa and Vegeta tanked just because they wanted to. And the Kienzan which he was planning to tank again until Vegeta told him to duck as it was dangerous. After that Kuririn is taken out of commission with a blast from Nappa because he marked his face with the Kienzan. So Kuririn actually only landed two attacks that weren't Ki based.

Characters have been shown to utterly decimate others with a mere gap of 25% Trunks is definitely below this. A good example of this is Kui against Vegeta. If there was this much of a difference between them Vegeta would be casually dodging every blow thrown at him just by swaying. The Namek arc is a perfect example of this. The Ginyu Force, all being around 40,000, were toyed with by Goku who was 90,000 at the time.

Problem with all of that is that those are actual battles, under circumstances that do not resemble a father getting a feel for the first time ever for how good a fighter his son is. If this fight was an actual fight with at least some stakes above a trip to an amusement park involved, then I might be inclined to rate Vegeta's opponent differently.

If Vegeta was twice as strong as him it wouldn't have mattered if it was an actual battle or not. He would still be able to casually deal with his sons attacks. Yet he showed there was difficulty there. Ginyu practically said that Goku would only need a battle power of 60,000 to deal with his men effortlessly. So Vegeta pushing over 2x his son's battle power should not have had such a difficult sparring match.

But in these circumstances, I'm not seeing that Vegeta was putting forth anything resembling his best effort. Which is not to say that I think he was suppressing his power (not that I entirely discount that as a possibility), merely that he wasn't utilizing his full skill. Actually, scratch that. We know Vegeta wasn't giving his all. Vegeta trying his best isn't defending by mere bobbing and weaving. Vegeta trying his best isn't attacking with one reactionary hit. Vegeta trying his best wouldn't say "Oops." regretting the one hit he did throw out. So we know he isn't using his full skill. And if he's only using a fraction of his full skill, then why is it so impossible that he's instead using a fraction of a fraction of his full skill, such that Trunks can land a hit through his deliberately meager guard?

I think you need to check the manga again. Vegeta was showing incredible difficulty dealing with his sons blows. You could see it on his face. Even while dodging he pushed out an "Uhn!" which is indicative of someone exerting physical effort. So Vegeta was definitely trying.