What you think about DBS?

[sintzu]

The Shadow Dragons Saga Did what the other two shows couldn't do and that was: Killing Goku for good and remove the Dragon Balls forever (100 years...well, 102).

Don't forget about them killing off Piccolo for good.

[dbzfan7]

I've become very disillusioned with Super, lately. It's not a good feeling. Rewatching Kai's first outing certainly hasn't helped matters. The difference in quality is quite large. I don't mean in terms of animation, either; the lows and highs are pretty much the same in that regard. It's the other components that are really starting to get to me.

Sumitomo's score is unbearably bland. It really does nothing to accent the action on screen. Music is such a huge part of Dragon Ball for me, and his work is really killing my enjoyment. Kikuchi is, of course, the definitive sound of the show, but that's never made me shy away from other composers. Plagiarism aside, Yamamoto's score was very rarely off the mark, and did a great job of breathing new life into the show. Takaki, with only minimal involvement in the franchise, managed to produce some incredible music that was very blatant in paying homage to Kikuchi. Sumitomo just hasn't stepped up and produced anything that gives me the feeling that any of the other composers have managed. It's deeply upsetting.

The new sound effects, while perhaps not a big deal to some, have definitely started to get to me. They're such a tiny detail, but they make a world of difference in establishing the overall tone of the show. Can you imagine Star Wars without its trademark sound design? The blasters, the explosions, the sound of the lightsabers. It would totally throw you off. I know it's throwing me off in Super! The auras, the punches, the footsteps, the beams. It sounds so wrong. It's not just different, it's worse. It lacks the power that the original effects had. I've still yet to wrap my head around the change.

But really, the biggest thing for me is the direction and the writing. I don't feel fully engaged in the narrative. It's easy to pass that off as "Oh, but you've seen the films, so of course you wouldn't be", but the thing is, I can go back and watch the older series being fully aware of everything that's going happen, and still feel tense. Super's direction is unbelievably weak. There have been only a few moments where I've been glued to the screen, but they were fleeting and few and far between. It's a little disappointing, especially when I think about just how well it handles its comedic moments, and more recently, the training exercises.

In 19 episodes, we've had how many Kamehamehas? How many power-ups? How many endless flurries of punches? It's just not very well written. You're supposed to accent fights with big moves and impressive setpieces. You can't repeat the same formula over and over again and expect it to turn out okay. That's just not how any of this works. Think back to Goku vs Piccolo Daimao! You remember the chest piercing. Think back to Namek, and you'll remember Goku bursting out of the water to deliver a Kaioken Kamehameha. There are just so many examples of well-directed action that are sorely missing from Super so far. It's even more baffling considering the movies had those moments in them just fine. How can the show be so good at comedy, but so bad at action?

I'm just finding the series so frustrating now. All of the initial excitement around a new series has kinda worn off now, and I'm left focusing on what the show really is. It's a far step above GT, but I'm really worried about its future. Universe 6 certainly sounds interesting, but its not the story content I'm worried about. It's everything else that is required to actually tell the story that's terrifying me. Will I really be able to get over all of that? I hope so. Part of me wants to pretend they're going to put real effort into the new arc, but I know that's not true.

I agree with most of this. Music sucks ass in Super. Sound effects suck ass in Super. I never feel tense in Super. The fights for the most part suck ass in Super. Some moments are pretty cool to watch when it comes to fights, but they are mostly so forgettable and bad that I don't care. I think the comedy can be good, when it's not relying on food jokes so much. Food jokes are fine, but god damn if they aren't everywhere. I doubt they can go 2 or 3 episodes with at least a couple food jokes. Probably not even 1. Super is just way better at just getting the characters together for fun. When the characters aren't fighting and are together, Super is at it's best. Which is weird cause that's not even supposed to be the best part of Dragon Ball, but it is right now.

Why hating GT. GT's rating way higher than super.

These are things both shows have in common yet the responses from fans are the polar opposite :

Gt has a different art style : "It sucks because it doesn't look like Z".
Super has a different art style : "it's the way animation is today so it's acceptable"

Gt has slow fights : "It sucks because the fights aren't as fast paced as Z's"
Super has slow fights : "It's a weekly series so it's to be expected"

Gt doesn't utilizing the other characters : "it sucks because it's only about Goku"
Super doesn't utilize the other characters : "Oh well I'll enjoy it regardless"

Gt starts out with a lighthearted/gag tone : "It sucks because it's going back to the early days of DB"
Super starts out with a lighthearted/gag tone : It makes sense for it to go back to it's roots"

Gt rehashes plot points : "They ran out of ideas"
Super rehashes entire stories : "not everyone got to see them so it makes sense"

How do you think the responses would be if Toriyama wrote Gt instead of Super ?

This. The hypocrisy pisses me off so much. If Toriyama wasn't mentioned to have anything to do with anything in the series, perhaps the response wouldn't be the same. Artstyle wise I can get why people won't like GT. The darker and less coloured style I can see being unappealing to some. The fighting however I find ridiculous. Hell I find GT's more interesting than Super's fighting. GT get's the fuck you treatment while Super is excused for the same drawback GT had.

This is my biggest gripe of all. Super and GT do this, and yet Super is easily excused of this crime. Though in Super's case perhaps Piccolo and Boo will get a chance now, but we'll wait and see if that amounts to anything. Otherwise in reality they both do the same thing, and yet it's fuck you GT, well Super is ok doing this, I'll accept it.

Tone wise at least GT made me feel excited or tense. With Super I'm bored. Beyond a power level enthusiast's wet dream, and lack of any memorable moments, I'm so bored and just don't care.

Going by rehashes, at least Super is open about it. GT kinda isn't. Though even the original Dragon Ball isn't a stranger to rehashing ideas.

[Doctor.]

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved. I haven't seen anyone say "Well, I like Super better because it has Toriyama while GT doesn't". No, it's just that even if they have the same issues, those people think GT's are more severe. Like me, for instance.

[successoroffate]

I agree with the whole music thing. The music is nonexistent or really bad. Well, not bad, not up with the quality of DB/Z/GT. It does not fit the scenes...yet.

[successoroffate]

Tone wise at least GT made me feel excited or tense. With Super I'm bored. Beyond a power level enthusiast's wet dream, and lack of any memorable moments, I'm so bored and just don't care.

I'm enjoying Super so Far, but it's not yet up to the level where GT remains for me. Super is Fun, but it's no GT yet. Again, I'm talking about my Taste. Also, Super hasn't really tell anything new because we are all spoiled by the movies but I am sure the whole U-6 thingy arch is going to be great.

[sintzu]

I am sure the whole U-6 thingy arch is going to be great.

It'll be great if they cut down on the humor and improve the fight choreography.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved. I haven't seen anyone say "Well, I like Super better because it has Toriyama while GT doesn't". No, it's just that even if they have the same issues, those people think GT's are more severe. Like me, for instance.

I've seen it a lot on Youtube. lol.

I hated Dub GT more than I dislike Super. However, I feel watching the Japanese sub might make me appreciate that series more...

[successoroffate]

I hated Dub GT more than I dislike Super. However, I feel watching the Japanese sub might make me appreciate that series more...

The Original Japanese is a complete different creature from the dub. If I could I would encourage you to give it a shot. Just because it's feels more like DB and it's, of course, accurate and not made up like the Funi dub.

[successoroffate]

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved. I haven't seen anyone say "Well, I like Super better because it has Toriyama while GT doesn't". No, it's just that even if they have the same issues, those people think GT's are more severe. Like me, for instance.

Sometimes, I like to think that some people are really failing at understanding Toriyama's true involvement in Both GT and Super. Someone said earlier, I think it was Lord Beerus who said that Toriyama's Super involvement is just Plot Outline and characters designs. If that's the case, it seems he's involved in Super just as Much as he was involved in GT. Yet again, we don't know for sure.

Here's an Italian Magazine saying that Toriyama did these illustrations as a base for GT which include: Characters, basic plot and the design for Planet Monmaas. I don't know if it's true.

The title says: "The Characters First look! Here are the first pictures/illustrations created by Toriyama Sensei AND the Cartoon designers before the show premieres on TV. Some of these are been shown for the first time to the Public."

[Doctor.]

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved. I haven't seen anyone say "Well, I like Super better because it has Toriyama while GT doesn't". No, it's just that even if they have the same issues, those people think GT's are more severe. Like me, for instance.

I've seen it a lot on Youtube. lol.

I hated Dub GT more than I dislike Super. However, I feel watching the Japanese sub might make me appreciate that series more...

Well, Youtube has the same fanbase that thinks that any mindless freak punching a rock is good writing. I'm not trying to belittle any fanbase (well, a little), but c'mon, it's youtube.

I didn't, even when I rewatched the series. If anything, it made me think it was even worse. You think Goku's characterization in Super is off? In GT he goes against everything he has stood for. It's not just Goku, either. The series is absolutely awful when it comes to storytelling. It has slightly more consistent animation than Super and a much, much, much better soundtrack, but in terms of writing it's at the bottom of the barrel.

[successoroffate]

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved. I haven't seen anyone say "Well, I like Super better because it has Toriyama while GT doesn't". No, it's just that even if they have the same issues, those people think GT's are more severe. Like me, for instance.

I've seen it a lot on Youtube. lol.

I hated Dub GT more than I dislike Super. However, I feel watching the Japanese sub might make me appreciate that series more...

Well, Youtube has the same fanbase that thinks that any mindless freak punching a rock is good writing. I'm not trying to belittle any fanbase (well, a little), but c'mon, it's youtube.

Youtubers created the 12 Gods of Destruction before it never became a reality.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved. I haven't seen anyone say "Well, I like Super better because it has Toriyama while GT doesn't". No, it's just that even if they have the same issues, those people think GT's are more severe. Like me, for instance.

Sometimes, I like to think that some people are really failing at understanding Toriyama's true involvement in Both GT and Super. Someone said earlier, I think it was Lord Beerus who said that Toriyama's Super involvement is just Plot Outline and characters designs. If that's the case, it seems he's involved in Super just as Much as he was involved in GT. Yet again, we don't know for sure.

Here's an Italian Magazine saying that Toriyama did these illustrations as a base for GT which include: Characters, basic plot and the design for Planet Monmaas. I don't know if it's true.

The title says: "The Characters First look! Here are the first pictures/illustrations created by Toriyama Sensei AND the Cartoon designers before the show premieres on TV. Some of these are been shown for the first time to the Public."

Spoiler:

Well, as far as Kanzenshuu is concerned, all Toriyama contributed to GT was the design of the logo, the characters and a few of the planets. He had zero involvement in the plot.

[HybridSaiyan]

I don't know about you guys but my top best experience while watching DBZ is the Old Funi + Bruce.
I think this is why I'm having a hard time enjoying Super, despite its animation problems.
I just don't understand those who think Super is much better than GT. GT Had many greatness to it, and rounded off Dragon Ball as a whole perfectly.

[Scott]

Super is not good at comedy.

Episode 16 disagrees. That episode was a riot.

Couldn't disagree more, Vegeta was once again turned into a clown.

The comedy side of Dragon Ball Super is so childish, it's embarrassing to watch.

[dbzfan7]

Super is not good at comedy.

Episode 16 disagrees. That episode was a riot.

Couldn't disagree more, Vegeta was once again turned into a clown.

The comedy side of Dragon Ball Super is so childish, it's embarrassing to watch.

Well comedy is something you will or won't find funny. Everyone is different.

I think Super's comedy is pretty miss usually with tons of food jokes. Meanwhile I laugh my ass off while watching One Punch Man which I think does pretty much everything better than Dragon Ball Super.

[Araki]

Sometimes, I like to think that some people are really failing at understanding Toriyama's true involvement in Both GT and Super. Someone said earlier, I think it was Lord Beerus who said that Toriyama's Super involvement is just Plot Outline and characters designs. If that's the case, it seems he's involved in Super just as Much as he was involved in GT. Yet again, we don't know for sure.

No, we do know for sure that his involvement is completely different. Toriyama gets in Super the same credit he did for Battle of Gods (story + character designs), which answers your question already. While in GT, he just made a few character designs for the beginning of the show, the logo and he was done. He had nothing to do with any plot direction whatsoever, and was never credited for anything other than being the original author. An Italian magazine doesn't count when official Japanese sources and the show itself said otherwise. I'll stick with the facts.

Everything you want to know for sure is here, Kanzenshuu is your friend:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/toriyama/#gt
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/super/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/gt/

It's not cool to point fingers at others when you're the one making a mistake there.

[successoroffate]

Sometimes, I like to think that some people are really failing at understanding Toriyama's true involvement in Both GT and Super. Someone said earlier, I think it was Lord Beerus who said that Toriyama's Super involvement is just Plot Outline and characters designs. If that's the case, it seems he's involved in Super just as Much as he was involved in GT. Yet again, we don't know for sure.

No, we do know for sure that his involvement is completely different. Toriyama gets in Super the same credit he did for Battle of Gods (story + character designs), which answers your question already. While in GT, he just made a few character designs for the beginning of the show, the logo and he was done. He had nothing to do with any plot direction whatsoever, and was never credited for anything other than being the original author. An Italian magazine doesn't count when official Japanese sources and the show itself said otherwise. I'll stick with the facts.

Everything you want to know for sure is here, Kanzenshuu is your friend:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/toriyama/#gt
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/super/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/gt/

It's not cool to point fingers at others when you're the one making a mistake there.

Those same pictures from the Italian Magazine and the information are the same ones provided by Kanzenshuu. The italian magazine didn't add anything new . And tell me, When did I point my finger at anyone? I only mentioned Lord Beerus because he said something about Toriyama's involvement in Super, but I wasn't pointing his comment as a mistake or neither was I trying to make him look like a fool or something. I am talking about those who say " Hey, I don't like GT because Toriyama wasn't on the project, at all." Which is not true and we don't really know for sure cause we have no way to know what really happened over there during production.

Maybe Toriyama was the Mastermind of the whole thing and after he saw the decline in quality not by his hand, but rather from TOEI he probably said "Screw this, Take me out of this/This is not what we agreed upon"


So, choose your words wisely. Tell me where's my mistake? Cause all I did was translate and of course, I am not taking what the Magazine says as Fact. Take in mind, The magazine came out before GT premiered on TV. And I do use Kanzenshuu, just like everyone else. I'm still discovering things.

[Kuririn Fan]

Why hating GT. GT's rating way higher than super even above sazae san.

You're joking, right? You can't compare the ratings from 96 with today.

[Araki]

Those same pictures from the Italian Magazine and the information are the same ones provided by Kanzenshuu. The italian magazine didn't add anything new .

If they said Toriyama came up with GT's plot, then they did add something that is not here or in any other reliable source.

And tell me, When did I point my finger at anyone? I only mentioned Lord Beerus because he said something about Toriyama's involvement in Super, but I wasn't pointing his comment as a mistake or neither was I trying to make him look like a fool or something. I am talking about those who say " Hey, I don't like GT because Toriyama wasn't on the project, at all." Which is not true and we don't really know for sure cause we have no way to know what really happened over there during production.

You said people were "failing to understand" that Toriyama had the same involvement in Super and GT, which i just pointed out why was a mistake, but from your end. Heck, everyone is discussing the U6 chapters fully aware that Toriyama is behind it. The only thing we actually don't know is if he's overseeing the BoG/RoF adaptations or only gets the credit because of his work on the movies - that's up in the air, but the rest is all solid and easily verifiable information.

It's perfectly fine to like GT, and yes, it's stupid to like or dislike something because of the names behind it - but that's not much different from what you're doing, using Toriyama's name as a crutch while trying to connect him to GT. You don't need that to appreciate GT.

Maybe Toriyama was the Mastermind of the whole thing and after he saw the decline in quality not by his hand, but rather from TOEI he probably said "Screw this, Take me out of this/This is not what we agreed upon"

Now that's complete speculation territory. All we know is that Toriyama seemed very tired of the franchise back then, and never really implied he was involved with the show. Even when SSJ4 came around, the biggest event in the series, he wasn't there to design it.

Why hating GT. GT's rating way higher than super even above sazae san.

You're joking, right? You can't compare the ratings from 96 with today.

Lol, yeah. GT had ratings that seem impressive out of context, for today's standards, but it was not top 10 material back then.
Rurouni Kenshin was another anime cancelled for ratings that were above current Sazae, times are way too different now. If we want to analyze GT's ratings, it's easier to compare it to DBZ and see the drop.

[successoroffate]

If they said Toriyama came up with GT's plot, then they did add something that is not here or in any other reliable source.[

There's no such thing as absolute reliability as to any matter regarding Dragon Ball. Kanzenshuu does a hell of great job compiling, researching and informing the fans, but back when the Internet wasn't a thing like today, people relied on Magazines. Some of them lied, others try not to while others did communicate bits of information that were cherish by fans even today. There's a reason why Kanzenshuu calls itself "the most authoritative Dragon Ball resource" and the reason is because they earned it. They don't make stuff up and they are accurate (I'm looking at you Wikia). However, like I said, there is no absolute truth and even Kanzenshuu While communicating their info, are likely to miss stuff. But I would rather have the website missing stuff than making it up.

I'm not trying to crutch Toriyama into GT, but I stand with my opinion, There's more to Toriyama's involvement in GT that meets the eye. Whether we like it or not, whether it was a Fluke or something else, Anything Dragon Ball related would always be somehow connected to Toriyama.

By the way, that whole thing I said about Toriyama stepping out in mid production of GT was pure speculation by me.