Biggest exageration by fans?

Doctor. · Post by **Doctor.** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:40 pm

Arguments exist. Yes, we're both passionately arguing. And yes, we're both probably trying to convince the other side to either change his mind or, at the very least, understand why we think the way we do. The reason the discussion is going on is because I don't understand. I can't understand, and I'm trying to.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:43 pm

What are you trying to understand, though? How someone could like what FUNimation did to Dragon Ball? For the same reasons why you like what Toei did to Dragon Ball. For the same reason you like whatever you like. It resonates with the person and the person doesn't care what the original says. Original doesn't mean anything to some people.

Nearly every Disney story was adapted from something else. Does that mean that the Disney version of Snow White, Cinderella, the Little Mermaid, Pooh, and whatever else they did is horrible and so bad and that people should only like the original books? No. Most people don't even know the original stories and only know Disney. That's the exact same thing with the dub version of DB.

Doctor. · Post by **Doctor.** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:45 pm

No, I understand why people like what Funimation did to Dragon Ball. I don't understand why people like what Funimation did to Goku. You can say it's still nostalgia, but I still can't comprehend how one can like it to this day. And I should stop, then, because this discussion will never stop otherwise.

fadeddreams5 · Post by **fadeddreams5** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:51 pm

Doctor. wrote:Look at the Red Ribbon Army. If Dub Goku was actually a shining beacon of morality as the dub tries to portray him as, then he'd try to reason with Gero because it's mostly his fault that Gero came for them in the first place.

After Gero impaled Yamcha and blew up a city filled with people right before his eyes? lol.

If you mean before, I don't think Goku thought much of it. The guy hadn't done anything and Goku wanted a challenge, especially knowing he never got to face these guys in the alternate future. Mr. Morals or not, dub Goku still loves fighting.

Yes, and that's what Goku does. He's a normal person with selfish and selfless actions. He's NOT portrayed as a role model or a superhero, he's portrayed as a normal person. Like I said, he's an over-idealized version of a western hero in the dub, any flaws in his character are either omitted or severely downplayed for his heroic characteristics. If you can't see how the former is more interesting than the latter, then I'm sorry, I guess.

But his flaws are all there. Nothing is omitted. Any fan will still see him as an idiot who makes dumb decisions and a poor father.

You can not like the character. But it's still an insult to any Dragon Ball fan that they changed the MAIN character so much to the point where he's radically different. For what? Because he'd seem to rude to western audiences? So they're basically admitting that they think their audience is dumb and can't understand a character with more than one layer to his personality.

Goku being an asshole is what makes him likable to me. Because, amidst a series with flying aliens who shoot laser beams, it makes him somewhat relatable.

Don't get me wrong, I already admitted in my other post that it is an insult to the original work because it's not faithful in many ways.

I find dub Goku more relatable and inspiring. Incidentally, the fact that he spews self-righteous shit a lot of the times, but his actions kind of contradict his intentions, that's as real as you can get. lol.

It's not admirable if, like Kamiccolo explained, he's being a shithead asshole like Toriyama wrote him and the dub is STILL portraying him as a role model to follow.

That's the beauty of the character. He means well, truly believes what he does is for the good of mankind, but still acts like a shithead asshole. He's smart, naive, caring, and wholly misguided. Overall, a truly good person who's aware of evil and fights against it, but also loves to undertake challenges. His morality and desires kind of clash with one another, making him a total hypocrite at times.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:52 pm

Someone could like what they did to Goku because people don't sit there and go so in-depth and go so deep with a character that was never ever meant to be deep at all. We know that in FUNimaton's version, Goku is righteous, he is brave, he is heroic, he is considerate, he wants what's best. Then you have Japanese version's Goku whose list of things he cares about are fighting, getting stronger, and MAYBE his family and friends, but certainly not more than the other two. Some people legitimately relate more to the righteous, heroic person than a careless and selfish douchebag. It's not an incredible psychological phenomenon really. Yeah, Goku does things in the dub where Goku's actions don't align with what his characteristics are, but you KNOW his character is supposed to be the guy who stands up for what's right. With Japanese Goku, his carelessness is just pitiful really and he is a truly infuriating character.

Regardless of who likes which version, this dub vs Japanese version shit needs to end because everyone has the version they like at full exposure to them. Liking the Japanese version isn't RIGHT for everyone, it can only be right for you.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:55 pm

No one cares if anyone likes the portrayal the dub makes. That's their prerogative.

That doesn't keep it from being an utter failure at adapting the source material, done to make it acceptable to "stupid and fragile" American kids.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:58 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:No one cares if anyone likes the portrayal the dub makes. That's their prerogative.

That doesn't keep it from being an utter failure at adapting the source material, done to make it acceptable to "stupid and fragile" American kids.

Sure. Nobody's disputing that it's not an accurate adaptation. So what? What's this whole argument about? Not one person has ever said that it was an adaptation that was completely accurate to the original. Even FUNimation never claimed that to be the case. So what? The arguments seem to be, "But I like the dub and it portrays the characters better" and the other side going, "NU-UH!!! That's wrong! That's an embarrassment! How could anybody think so?!" And then when someone brings up that people have the right to like whatever they like, both sides retreat to their corners and suddenly make the statement that it's not about what someone likes, but how faithful the adaptation is. That's definitely NOT what's disputed here.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:59 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:No one cares if anyone likes the portrayal the dub makes. That's their prerogative.

That doesn't keep it from being an utter failure at adapting the source material, done to make it acceptable to "stupid and fragile" American kids.
Sure. Nobody's disputing that it's not an accurate adaptation. So what? What's this whole argument about? Not one person has ever said that it was an adaptation that was completely accurate to the original. Even FUNimation never claimed that to be the case. So what?

This entire conversation started because someone said that the inaccuracies of the old dub were exaggerated. That's what the whole last few pages have been about.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:01 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:This entire conversation started because someone said that the inaccuracies of the old dub were exaggerated. That's what the whole last few pages have been about.

It's subjective. Maybe to some people, it's not a big deal that they made Goku a little more heroic. But to some people it's a huge deal. Who's to say which opinion is true and which isn't? This entire thing is subjective. What's a big deal to one isn't a big deal to another. How can anybody convince someone else how to feel? I find it insulting as an adult when someone tries to change my fundamental way of thinking about something. If someone thinks that he or she can change my mind against my will and force me to believe something else, I find that highly insulting and offensive. I'm sure that everyone feels that way, which is why it turns into such a giant war.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:05 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:This entire conversation started because someone said that the inaccuracies of the old dub were exaggerated. That's what the whole last few pages have been about.
It's subjective. Maybe to some people, it's not a big deal that they made Goku a little more heroic. But to some people it's a huge deal. Who's to say which opinion is true and which isn't? This entire thing is subjective. What's a big deal to one isn't a big deal to another. How can anybody convince someone else how to feel? I find it insulting as an adult when someone tries to change my fundamental way of thinking about something. If someone thinks that he or she can change my mind against my will and force me to believe something else, I find that highly insulting. I'm sure that everyone feels that way, which is why it turns into such a giant war.

The fact that the dub heavily deviates from the original is not subjective, and, in fact, numerous examples have been cited as proof. No one cares if other people are fan of the dub, but if someone's opinion is that it isn't all that different from the original, then their opinion is wrong. There is no arguing that. Quality is subjective, accuracy is not.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:10 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:This entire conversation started because someone said that the inaccuracies of the old dub were exaggerated. That's what the whole last few pages have been about.
It's subjective. Maybe to some people, it's not a big deal that they made Goku a little more heroic. But to some people it's a huge deal. Who's to say which opinion is true and which isn't? This entire thing is subjective. What's a big deal to one isn't a big deal to another. How can anybody convince someone else how to feel? I find it insulting as an adult when someone tries to change my fundamental way of thinking about something. If someone thinks that he or she can change my mind against my will and force me to believe something else, I find that highly insulting. I'm sure that everyone feels that way, which is why it turns into such a giant war.
The fact that the dub heavily deviates from the original is not subjective, and, in fact, numerous examples have been cited as proof. No one cares if other people are fan of the dub, but if someone's opinion is that it isn't all that different from the original, then their opinion is wrong. There is no arguing that. Quality is subjective, accuracy is not.

Once again, I ask you who has been saying that it doesn't deviate from the story? HOW faithful it is, is still subjective. To some, as long as you can follow the basic plot, it's accurate. Is Goku's character part of the plot? To some yeah, to some no. If the story was completely unrecognizable, then yeah, pretty easy to say that the dub made a giant deviation from the source material. But it's not like Goku was a human, Vegeta was coming to Earth to find a bride, Freeza teleported Kuririn to another planet, and Cell wanted to hold a friendly tournament to make some new friends. The core story was the same. All of the gaga in between was changed, yeah. To someone like you (obviously), that stuff still counts. But to someone else, it might not count too much. To someone, changing, "Hey, let's go to the park and have fun!" being changed into "Are we going to the park later? Yes! I love the park!" is a huge deviation. To others, it's exactly the same thing.

So I go back to my original opinion that this entire topic (dub vs Japanese) is subjective. Nobody has said that the dub is totally accurate to the original, people are saying they don't care about that and don't feel that those deviations changed the story. Yes, that is subjective. So trying to convince someone that what he or she likes is wrong is actually highly offensive.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:15 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Once again, I ask you who has been saying that it doesn't deviate from the story? HOW faithful it is, is still subjective. To some, as long as you can follow the basic plot, it's accurate. Is Goku's character part of the plot? To some yeah, to some no. If the story was completely unrecognizable, then yeah, pretty easy to say that the dub made a giant deviation from the source material. But it's not like Goku was a human, Vegeta was coming to Earth to find a bride, Freeza teleported Kuririn to another planet, and Cell wanted to hold a friendly tournament to make some new friends. The core story was the same. All of the gaga in between was changed, yeah. To someone like you (obviously), that stuff still counts. But to someone else, it might not count too much. To someone, changing, "Hey, let's go to the park and have fun!" being changed into "Are we going to the park later? Yes! I love the park!" is a huge deviation. To others, it's exactly the same thing.

So I go back to my original opinion that this entire topic (dub vs Japanese) is subjective. Nobody has said that the dub is totally accurate to the original, people are saying they don't care about that and don't feel that those deviations changed the story. Yes, that is subjective. So trying to convince someone that what he or she likes is wrong is actually highly offensive.

Multiple people, as indicated by this very thread, and numerous others.

And yes, I can, with good faith, tell them that they are wrong. If the changes made change the meaning of the respective scenes, then they are unfaithful. If characters are warped into other characters, then it is unfaithful. You can argue whether or not this is a bad thing but you cannot argue that Funi!Goku and Toei!Goku are the same character. You are factually wrong.

If you are offended by disagreement, then I suggest you either get off of the internet and become a recluse, or, in the kindest words possible, get over it. That attitude does not work anywhere.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:24 pm

Please read what I'm saying. Nobody is arguing that there were changes made. That is fact. Whether those changes were substantial enough or not is purely subjective. It might be a big deal to you, not a big deal to someone else. People saying that the FUNimation dub is completely faithful to the original, people are saying that they believes that the dub is faithful ENOUGH for them. How can you change their mind for that?

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:31 pm

To those who say they prefer the old Funi (or even Toei) Goku over the original, I can’t say I see anything about it to prefer. It’s just seeing Goku’s heroic characteristics (which do exist abundantly enough in the manga all the way through to the end; let’s be clear about that) bastardized and blown to the nth degree while nearly every other trait is suppressed to nil.

Not to dictate to you what you should and should not like; just earnestly struggling to understand it, with a friendly invitation on the side to read the manga if you haven’t already.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:32 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:Please read what I'm saying. Nobody is arguing that there were changes made. That is fact. Whether those changes were substantial enough or not is purely subjective. It might be a big deal to you, not a big deal to someone else. People saying that the FUNimation dub is completely faithful to the original, people are saying that they believes that the dub is faithful ENOUGH for them. How can you change their mind for that?

I fully understand what you are saying. The problem is, you are looking at this from the perspective of people's opinions. I'm looking at it from the objective perspective of what the dub is actually supposed to do.

Whether it's "faithful enough" for some people is irrelevant. The fact is, it is objectively not faithful to the source material. Some people may not mind that, and that's fine. However, if they declare that it is faithful, and it's an exaggeration to say that it isn't, then they are factually wrong. I don't care about opinions. Regardless of what your opinions are on the changes, the original Goku was never a superhero out to save the universe, Freeza was never a transvestite chain-smoking homoerotic lizard man, no one was ever transported to the next dimension, cities are not empty on Sundays, etc. This is a fact.

People being to stubborn to change their minds is not a reason to throw your hands in the air and give up. If it were, we would never have progressed as a species. Whether something is good enough for them is irrelevant. That is subjective. Objectively, the dub is a failed attempt to adapt the source material. There is no denying it.

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:36 pm

Please point out who said that the dub was completely faithful to the original. Has anybody ever said that? If not, then you're arguing two different things with that person and that's why it will never end.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:49 pm

Goku's heroism. I'm fine with people who consider him one in-spite of his obvious flaws, but a LOT of people try to pass him off like the perfect hero and I can't agree with that at all. He's an asshole who happens to care enough to stop a bad guy but not without letting his own bullshit from unnecessarily making things worse & harder than they need to be and always putting the appeasement of his own desires first. I wouldn't call a guy like that the be all, end all hero.

fadeddreams5 · Post by **fadeddreams5** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:56 pm

Faustus wrote:To those who say they prefer the old Funi (or even Toei) Goku over the original, I can’t say I see anything about it to prefer. It’s just seeing Goku’s heroic characteristics (which do exist abundantly enough in the manga all the way through to the end; let’s be clear about that) bastardized and blown to the nth degree while nearly every other trait is suppressed to nil.

Not to dictate to you what you should and should not like; just earnestly struggling to understand it, with a friendly invitation on the side to read the manga if you haven’t already.

Well, I haven't read the manga, so I can't say anything about this, and I'm a bit biased over Japanese Goku because I can't stand his voice and Super has mutilated the character for me, but I will say I like the righteous attitude. People complain about Toei's movie portrayals of him for the same reason they do with the dub. They exaggerate (ha, on-topic) about HOW much of a self-righteous hero he's portrayed when it's really just the same character, only smarter in some ways, a hypocrite in others, more morally conscious, a bit more caring, and voiced by an actual man.

precita · Post by **precita** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:58 pm

Goku acts way too heroic in the original that I can't see it being that much an exaggeration. Goku would never save any of his friends if all he cared about was fighting.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:03 pm

precita wrote:Goku acts way too heroic in the original that I can't see it being that much an exaggeration. Goku would never save any of his friends if all he cared about was fighting.

Goku only cares about anyone but himself when they're in danger or they serve his purposes which is combat support, training dummies or a source of food. Otherwise he can go entire years without seeing his friends or family and won't miss them at all. He wouldn't even waste a seconds thought on any of them.

Kanzenshuu

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