Plot Holes

[dragonballer]

The most recent thing that stands out to me as a straight up plot hole is probably in Battle of Gods after Bulma gets slapped by Beerus and Vegeta gets so angry that he surpasses Goku's strength, although I think the scene is great it doesn't make sense when I actually started thinking about it. Goku was SSJ3 when he fought Beerus on Kaio's planet and he couldn't lay a finger on him, this means that Vegeta was able to SURPASS SSJ3 just by getting angry, I remember SSJ3 being a monstrously strong power when it was introduced (I mean SSJ3 itself doesn't make sense to me either (If I'm being honest SSJG & SSJGSSJ made more logical sense to me) but that's another story...) but if Vegeta can reach that level of power by just getting angry then that means the training Goku is doing is a waste of time since getting stronger through anger is more effective.

Also in the original story whenever anyone becomes stronger than previously thought possible it can sometimes feel like a plothole, especially when someone reaches their "full potential" but then later on just surpasses it like its nothing, it happens more than a few times, even though "reaching full potential" usually implies that they can't possibly get any stronger. None of this ruins the series for me because Dragon Ball is at its most entertaining when the viewer/reader has full suspension of disbelief, and most plotholes can just be explained to stop them having that much of a damaging effect on the story (like maybe getting angry really is the most effective way to get stronger, there, now you have some new logic for the way anger works in Dragon Ball, and looking at Teen Gohan it fits into the world for the most part)

Any plot holes that DBSuper has in its retellings of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F can just be explained by having the movies be part of the "Toriyama Canon" whereas Super is part of the "Toei Canon", there, done. The movies were better told and animated anyway. Of course the new Universe 6 Tournament story arc would be part of the "Toriyama Canon" because it's the only medium that the story has been told through thus far, maybe we'll get a movie of it soon who knows.

As Darkprince410 has mentioned all of the rage boosts up until Vegeta's were temporary. I would say that even the Cell Games one was, in my opinion, Gohan was just perpetually angry at this point rather than having an out of control burst of rage. Gohan's battle power has varied throughout the series. His initial Battle Power boost from rage shot him up to 1,307. It is unclear where is base battle power lied because Raditz also picked his battle power up as 710 before his actual rage boost. Though I guess the 710 could have been a slight anger boost? We also have him do a proper one against Freeza. At the time Gohan's battle power was in the 10's of thousands. So for him to match Freeza's second and third form with that his battle power would have had to have shot up to over 100x what it was. So a rage boost can vary from around 1.8x(Assuming that Gohan's 710 was his base battle power.) to the minimum of 100x. So there is plenty of leeway for a SSJ or SSJ2 Vegeta to receive enough of a boost to surpass SSJ3 if you follow the guidebooks multipliers. Even if you don't and assume that the SSJ power increases are more or less than what is shown in the guidebooks a 100x boost to your battle power would be an insane amount. And frankly I don't think there is that much of a difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3 given that Majin Vegeta could still do damage to Fat Boo and Pure Boo. In comparison Base Gotenks against Evil Boo, with all the blows he landed, didn't lay a scratch on Evil Boo.

about gohan's rage boost against freeza,i think gohan had a zenkai before that.

[Hitiro]

about gohan's rage boost against freeza,i think gohan had a zenkai before that.

Both Kuririn and Gohan may have been around 20,000 ish when they thought Freeza, they were doing pretty well against a 23,000 BP Ginyu. Though arguably Ginyu was fending off both of them so I would still place them under the 20,000 mark. The first time Gohan has a rage boost against Freeza he hadn't got a zenkai yet. After that he received a zenkai and then another rage boost but this time against third form Freeza. So Gohan would still have had a sizeable zenkai as third form Freeza is much stronger than his second form. Arguably 2 million to 3 million. You could say that he was only 1.25 million as people have shown that, that sort of gap is enough to have clear superiority over their opponent though.

[Speedster]

Despite that there are numerous contradictions to your own opinion that people have challenged and have had really weak arguments for.

There are no contradictions and all my arguments are also backed up by what is undeniably stated in official SOURCE material -- the anime, its remake that removed filler, and again in the new canon. Whereas what do you have? Mere assumptions, misinterpretations, baseless statements of impossibility, random multipliers and headcanons.

I will even try to support both sides of the argument if you check by saying things like "Even if time did move differently there." Something you omitted.

I omitted nothing. I gave a response considering each one of your arguments.

You literally said "you can say that the conditions on Kaioshin’s planet are somewhere in-between those of afterlife and those of the mortal world. In other words contrary to the Other World where time doesn't flow, time may flow on Kaioshin’s planet but still slower than in the mortal world." This is honestly one giant ass pull just to make your opinion fit. Rather than rely on actual facts from the story.

How so? This is an actual fact from the story. It is stated by Goku himself when he was having trouble using SSJ3 on Earth.

and even re-writing the physics of the Dragon Ball world to suit your opinion.

So is there a Dragonball physics book? Are you a professor of Dragonball physics by any chance?

When someone proves you incorrect all you can say is "you're clutching at straws" you're not decent enough to say that you stand corrected.

But you didn't prove me incorrect and you are indeed clutching at straws. This is the big difference!

You pretty much highlighted me saying "I stand corrected" earlier. So I see how it is. If I'm wrong then it’s a win for every Pure Boo supporter everywhere but when its yourselves I must be clutching at straws.

The reason I highlighted your mistake was not in order to say “haha you made a mistake” but because you incorrectly misquoted me and you made it appear as if it was me who made that incorrect post. So I wanted to set the record straight.

Again, I'm not the one trying to make the story conform to my own ideals. I am merely going with what is said in the manga, anime and databooks.

Are you friends with Pinocchio?

You bring up the man's issues and flaws with lore just so you can say "Well he was wrong here, so he must be wrong in general therefore my opinion must be correct!"

This is very rich coming from someone who says: “The anime was wrong there or here so it must be wrong with kid Buu too!” Isn't this the very method YOU use to discount any non-manga material that says the opposite of what you are saying? As long as you are using this method then you are not in the position to even dare complaining about me using it. It is your own logic used against you. Don't you like it now I guess? Well then don't use it. It would also mean that you accept that the anime statement of kid Buu>Super Buu - end of the debate.

if you want to argue about this statement it is already a fallacy. Goku defeats Boo via a Genki Dama which was formed by all of Earth's inhabitants plus a few additional friends. So Goku is no. 1 because he beat Boo?

In both DBSuper and the manga, Vegeta acknowledges Goku to be the strongest. And that was because of the power level of Goku he had sensed during his battle against kid Buu. Nothing more nothing less.

And while we are at it, as I said and earlier any contradiction the anime had was a result of lack of future knowledge. By the time the kid Buu saga was around the manga was complete. I can't recall any single mistake to have ever propagated to new arcs through previous arcs - Toei had zero qualms retconning their own filler in favour of Toriyama’s true vision as shown multiple times; last time with the portrayal of Freeza in hell. And if I am not mistaken they didn't include anime filler lore contradicting the manga lore in any canon anime guidebooks - for example Roshi's description of the Dragonballs. So this statement being in Super is to me a confirmation that Goku was the strongest person Vegeta knew before the introduction of Hakaishins. If the Pure Buu line in the anime was actually a mistake as you suggest it wouldn’t perpetuate. It wouldn’t be in Kai. It wouldn’t be a core element in the movies. Even in the manga, from the appearance of kid Buu onwards there is nothing of substance to go against the notion Goku was the strongest fighter that could go against kid Buu. The only thing that goes against it is the assumption that Goku referred to his SSJ3 form inside Super Buu, and that it was infeasible for Goku to increase his power during his battle with kid Buu because a 2009 databook implies that SSJ multipliers are static.

Furthermore I never actually gave a definitive answer as to what Enma was doing. I merely suggested some things.

And out of the two things you had suggested the one was training, mind you! You also miss the point why so many others (who tried but failed) tried to cross the snakeway too. It wasn't only Enma.

Because otherwise we can make up whatever reason we want until Toriyama comes along and says differently.

But Toriyama did come long and said different things about the lore of Gods in Dragonball in 2014. That whole Shin-jin and fruit tree concept which also concerned the Kaios was retconned. You have to assume that is still applicable for Kaios when it is proven it isn’t for the Kaioshins. I assume nothing.

Furthermore we are still told that the Kaio age and die by the databooks even if there are contradictions to their actual lifespan.

Not in the manga though. And the databooks which came 15 years after the end of the manga were completely retconned regarding that lore.

But you can't can you because you want to be right about this. Correct?

But I am right about everything I said about the map. There aren’t two ways about it. I am correct. Should I I lie and say I am wrong in order to please you? Besides why do you think Elder Kaioshin remained in his planet after dying? Doesn’t someone who dies go to the other World? The whole joke with the Elder Kaioshin getting up and screaming to Goku after dying was that it doesn't matter if you are dead or alive if you are someone who lives permanently in afterlife. North Kaio stayed in the snakeway when he was killed by the explosion in a similar fashion but snakeway is in the Other World.

But through all of this I have never gone "Well I assume that time moves differently here, so that must mean Goku is more powerful there and therefore Boo is more powerful too." This is pretty much what you have done. You didn't even say that it was your assumption actually.

It is not an assumption though. It's a valid argument that counters your assumption about the infeasibility of Goku to be stronger against kid Buu than when he said he had no chance against Super Buu (if we indeed believe he referred to his SSJ3 form to begin with).

Kami was also considered a deity but it was shown that he doesn't have an infinite lifepan either.

That's because he was living on Earth, obviously.

You could say that Enma meant that he never imagined Dabra would die from being killed. Or you could take it that he never thought Dabra would die period. But why should that change anything? I imagine it is possible for their to be races that do have an infinite lifespan.

And again you're making assumptions about how the afterlife works. Nobody is specifically said to have eternal life.

Dabra, Kibito and Kaioshin kept referring to humans as mere mortals. Therefore they didn't consider themselves as mortals. The dictionary says that the opposite of mortal is someone who is not subjected to death. Then we get a statement that Dabra (who is not a mortal) was indeed someone who was not supposed to ever die. You only need to put 2 and 2 together. Can’t you? Or do you want to be spoon-fed?

Though Whis also asked if Goku would take over for Beerus when he dies. I can't imagine anybody killing Beerus but it certainly is a possibility now that we've seen another God of Destruction.

First Whis didn't say this in Super. He instead said something to Vegeta in episode 16 as a joke that he will train him if he is going to become the next god of destruction. Second, whether you can imagine something or not is irrelevant. In the movie Whis clearly implied Beerus getting killed -- given that Beerus lived for over 100million years it is highly unlikely for him to die from natural causes (assuming that this is indeed possible) by the end of Goku’s lifespan in 40-50 years in order to be replaced by him.

Just because the Rou Kaioshin gave up his life does not mean that the total lifespan he had left would be Goku's. That would suggest that the transferring of Elder Kaioshin's lifespan would somehow alter the genetic make-up of Goku to make him age differently.

Or just Kaioshins age differently (originally not at all) due to living in a realm where time flows differently (originally it was not at all).

If it were his environment then Kaio's world would be the ideal place to train indefinitely if it was just a matter of living there in other world.

Have you ever seen Goku not liking it there or aging? But he has to ask permission from Chi-Chi though too! Goku in Super also wondered if there is any difference for Kaio being dead or alive and Kaio just cited he was being ridiculed by the other Kaios.

A dead Goku doesn't age because he is dead.

Or being dead means that he belongs in a realm where time doesn't flow.

[quote="="Hitiro"]So when Goku says that time flows in the mortal realm he is specifically on about the trait inherent in dead people. [/quote]But time does flow for everyone in the mortal world, both dead and living! It is not a trait inherent only to dead people.

I said that Goku not ageing was a direct result of him being dead and not the environment he was in. So of course his body was the same.

There is a difference here. Goku is DEAD! That is the reason why his body can sustain SSJ3 differently than normal. Dead people because the dead don't age.

Ok let's test the logic of this claim. I ask you for which reason dead people don't age. And you answer that is because of the very fact of them being dead. Then I ask why dead Goku could use SSJ3 in the other world without problem and you answer that this is due to the very fact he was dead.

Now in the mortal world Goku was not given any special living body for his one-day return to the mortal world. So as far as Goku's state is concerned there was nothing that was changed. Goku has the same body and is still dead. But despite that he has trouble to use SSJ3 in the mortal world. So we can conclude that the very fact of Goku being dead is not actually relevant. Being dead is not the true reason of Goku not having trouble with SSJ3 in the Other World. The reason was the environment in the Other World favouring it. An environment that is stated to be different from the mortal world. And this difference in the environment was the flow of time. In mortal realm it flows and in the Other World it doesn't.

[Khin]

Getting back on-topic.Would Pure Boo being able to push back the Genki Dama be considered as a plot hole when it was stated that only good people can do it ? Or i misunderstand the line that Goku said to Gohan.

[rereboy]

Getting back on-topic.Would Pure Boo being able to push back the Genki Dama be considered as a plot hole when it was stated that only good people can do it ? Or i misunderstand the line that Goku said to Gohan.

Good people would be able to do it regardless of power. Kid Buu pushes it with his power. If this wasn't the case, Kid Buu wouldn't be able to push the genki dama of the saiyan saga thrown by Krillin, despite the massive power difference.

[Hellspawn28]

Half of what you say is no plothole, Hellspawn. It is either just not explained or misunderstood by you.

If it's not very explained in the story than it should be view as plot hole. Plot holes are view as logical inconsistency within a story. I see people say that a lot of the stuff that is not very well explained and didn't make sense in the movie Prometheus as plot holes. Won't the same be said for stuff in Dragon Ball.

[Hitiro]

There are no contradictions and all my arguments are also backed up by what is undeniably stated in official SOURCE material -- the anime, its remake that removed filler, and again in the new canon. Whereas what do you have? Mere assumptions, misinterpretations, baseless statements of impossibility, random multipliers and headcanons.

There are no contradictions and all your arguments are backed up by what is stated in the official source material? Where is it stated that Goku is superior to Evil Boo? Isn't that your opinion? Yet Goku doesn't say "Yeah, I could beat Evil Boo." So no, your arguments aren't all backed up by the source material. This is your assumption and misinterpretation of the source material. Goku says that neither him nor Vegeta would be able to beat Evil Boo. Yet you're the one assuming this statement is just an attempt from Goku to hide his strength for whatever assumption you made up for it. Whether it be to protect Vegeta's pride or because he wants to fuse because he has some sort of fusion fetish. So please don't talk rubbish. You have not proved anything about your opinion and it is riddles with contradictions such as the one I just mentioned.

You literally said "you can say that the conditions on Kaioshin’s planet are somewhere in-between those of afterlife and those of the mortal world. In other words contrary to the Other World where time doesn't flow, time may flow on Kaioshin’s planet but still slower than in the mortal world." This is honestly one giant ass pull just to make your opinion fit. Rather than rely on actual facts from the story.

How so? This is an actual fact from the story. It is stated by Goku himself when he was having trouble using SSJ3 on Earth.

You say that it is an actual fact but the Kaioshin are proven to age. Anything you say is mere assumptions you've made to make your opinion fit. So no. What Goku stated on Earth can easily be interpreted that dead people aren't effected by the flow of time in other world. If you're going to assume that it must mean time doesn't flow there when we have proof that the Kaio and Kaioshin age then that is your issue and another contradiction to your "perfect" opinion that has no contradictions at all from what you've been telling me. You just seem to pigheaded to admit that your opinion has flaws.

and even re-writing the physics of the Dragon Ball world to suit your opinion.

So is there a Dragonball physics book? Are you a professor of Dragonball physics by any chance?

You're changing facts like characters can't go beyond their maximum battle power without the help of certain things. You're telling me that time doesn't move in the afterlife when the Kaio and Kaioshin do age which would literally contradict time not flowing in the afterlife. And you're telling me that these fundamental things are turned on their head when Goku battles Pure Boo? That Goku can power up past his 100%, that the Kaioshin world's time doesn't flow or it flows slower, let me point out to you that if the Kaioshin worlds time did flow slower then it would have taken even longer for Goku to gather the Genki Dama. If we look at a 2:1 ratio for the Kaioshin world and assume that 2 days on Earth is equivalent to a day on the Kaioshin world then a it would have taken them twice as long to gather the energy needed for the Genki Dama. Furthermore if time did move differently to Earth there then it would not change Goku's transformation at all. Because he would still be moving at the speed of the environment. If you look at a planet getting sucked up by a black hole everybody looks like they are in slow motion. But their perception of time passing looks normal and when they view us, assuming they can, we would look like we're going faster. So if Goku loses 12 Ki per second on Earth it is going to be feel and be exactly the same on the Kaioshin world. The only way what you're suggesting would work is if only his transformations were effected by the passage of time. So again it brings me back to the point that time doesn't actually not flow in the afterlife. It just doesn't mean anything for people who are dead because their bodies are suspended in the same state indefinitely. If you look at the RoSaT for instance characters still age in their. Gotenks still can only last 5 mins as a SSJ3, despite time being faster in the RoSaT. On Earth he can still only maintain the form for 5 mins. So as you can see time does not have any bearing on their transformations. It is merely that Goku, in a dead body in the afterlife, can ignore the effects of time. Hence why in the Viz translations of the manga Goku says "where time doesn't mean much." So this debunks your theory of the Kaioshin world having some sort of slower time scale allowing him to hold the transformation for longer. Because if that were the case then Gotenks would have less time in the RoSaT and more time on earth.

When someone proves you incorrect all you can say is "you're clutching at straws" you're not decent enough to say that you stand corrected.

But you didn't prove me incorrect and you are indeed clutching at straws. This is the big difference!

But I did prove you incorrect? You stated that it was said in the story that Enma went to across Snakeway to train with Kaio. Yet I corrected you and said no such statement was ever made. At least not in the manga. But then you call this clutching at straws? Again, you're being way too pigheaded for your own good that you can't see the rubbish you're spewing. Please come back when you can actually admit that you're wrong and not spout rubbish like this.

You pretty much highlighted me saying "I stand corrected" earlier. So I see how it is. If I'm wrong then it’s a win for every Pure Boo supporter everywhere but when its yourselves I must be clutching at straws.

The reason I highlighted your mistake was not in order to say “haha you made a mistake” but because you incorrectly misquoted me and you made it appear as if it was me who made that incorrect post. So I wanted to set the record straight.

I never made the assertion that you were highlighting it to say I made a mistake. All I was pointing out was that you highlighted it to make sure you don't say something stupid like I don't admit my mistakes. Because as the above proves you're fine with pretending that you weren't wrong. You literally said the story tells us Enma went to train with Kaio and I pointed out that the story never says such a thing. When I said I corrected you, you said that you weren't incorrect and shrugged it off as if it never happened and then even went as far as to say I'm clutching at straws. What a great sense of logic you have. You're incorrect at something but that must mean that I am the one that is clutching at straws here. You just don't want to admit you're wrong.

Again, I'm not the one trying to make the story conform to my own ideals. I am merely going with what is said in the manga, anime and databooks.

Are you friends with Pinocchio?

Great insult. But I think that it is you who are friends with Pinocchio as from the the quotes above you're fine with lying about you not being correct.

You bring up the man's issues and flaws with lore just so you can say "Well he was wrong here, so he must be wrong in general therefore my opinion must be correct!"

This is very rich coming from someone who says: “The anime was wrong there or here so it must be wrong with kid Buu too!” Isn't this the very method YOU use to discount any non-manga material that says the opposite of what you are saying? As long as you are using this method then you are not in the position to even dare complaining about me using it. It is your own logic used against you. Don't you like it now I guess? Well then don't use it. It would also mean that you accept that the anime statement of kid Buu>Super Buu - end of the debate.

Yeah, because obviously the anime overwrites the actual creators lore and info. You're right. How foolish of me. The anime is what is correct. Not the manga. How could I be so dumb. Listen to yourself. I am using the manga to back up my statements. I am ignoring the anime and I will only reference the statements and information that Akira Toriyama had a hand in doing himself. The multipliers for SSJ and the battle powers up to the Freeza arc are things that I won't use because they are not by the man himself. They are a good base to get points across and I feel that they are values that can accurately reflect things in the manga and anime. But I would never say to a person that they are the stories multipliers as a fact. I also admit that Akira Toriyama has flaws in his story but you have to understand he is the author. What he says goes. He is the literal God of the Dragon Ball Universe. If he wants to make Goku the strongest or even Oob stronger than Beerus then there is no use saying "He's wrong because everything he has done up until this point says otherwise." He is the one that controls the story. It is fine to say it about the Dragon Ball Z anime because he has nothing to do with those filler lines. The manga should be the reference guide in all regards unless lines are ambiguous then we fall to statements the man has made himself, no matter how batty they may be.

if you want to argue about this statement it is already a fallacy. Goku defeats Boo via a Genki Dama which was formed by all of Earth's inhabitants plus a few additional friends. So Goku is no. 1 because he beat Boo?

In both DBSuper and the manga, Vegeta acknowledges Goku to be the strongest. And that was because of the power level of Goku he had sensed during his battle against kid Buu. Nothing more nothing less.

Incorrect. Vegeta never says that Goku is the strongest in the manga. All he says is Goku is the only one who can beat Boo now. Which was correct because at the time the only people strong enough to stand any chance of fighting Boo were Goku and Vegeta as everyone else was dead.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

At the time this was said Gohan and the kids were dead so the statement is true that Goku is the only one capable of fighting him between Vegeta and Goku. Nothing more, nothing less.

And while we are at it, as I said and earlier any contradiction the anime had was a result of lack of future knowledge. By the time the kid Buu saga was around the manga was complete. I can't recall any single mistake to have ever propagated to new arcs through previous arcs - Toei had zero qualms retconning their own filler in favour of Toriyama’s true vision as shown multiple times; last time with the portrayal of Freeza in hell. And if I am not mistaken they didn't include anime filler lore contradicting the manga lore in any canon anime guidebooks - for example Roshi's description of the Dragonballs.

So you're telling me that Popo fending off two SSJ boys is not a contradiction of established information in the story? Somehow Popo is one of the strongest characters in the story despite the fact that he had long been left in the dust by the characters since the Saiyan arc? How about when Piccolo says to Vegeta that he will not keep his body when he dies and goes to hell yet we have seen evil people keep their bodies all the way up to this point and it continues after this is made a statement. Yet Akira Toriyama, at least in his original work, never contradicted this statement? How about Goku's statement that if you die while you're dead you will cease to exist? In GT they throw away this statement when Goku fights Freeza and Cell because Goku kills them and they come back to life? These are probably just a few of the many inconsistencies the anime and Toei makes. There are probably more.

So this statement being in Super is to me a confirmation that Goku was the strongest person Vegeta knew before the introduction of Hakaishins.

Except Vegeta never states that Goku is the strongest person merely that he is #1. Considering their rivalry this can easily be taken as Vegeta saying out of the two of them Goku is superior. It doesn't have to mean that Goku is the strongest in the universe. And as I said above that statement would be folly if it were a reference to his strength because Goku never beat Boo with his own strength.

If the Pure Buu line in the anime was actually a mistake as you suggest it wouldn’t perpetuate. It wouldn’t be in Kai.

Popo vs. Trunks and Goten is apparently still in Kai? So your argument is really null and void.

It wouldn’t be a core element in the movies. Even in the manga, from the appearance of kid Buu onwards there is nothing of substance to go against the notion Goku was the strongest fighter that could go against kid Buu. The only thing that goes against it is the assumption that Goku referred to his SSJ3 form inside Super Buu, and that it was infeasible for Goku to increase his power during his battle with kid Buu because a 2009 databook implies that SSJ multipliers are static.

And why is it an assumption that Goku was referring to his SSJ3 form inside Boo? Why are you taking this line as if it must mean something else? You're quick to jump on people about not using the "troublesome" quote the Kaioshin said as the most obvious meaning. But when the most obvious meaning to Goku saying they can't beat Evil Boo is that they literally can't beat Evil Boo without fusion or weakening him further it's okay to make assumptions on this? Furthermore I don't understand what you mean by the 2009 databook stuff. The SSJ multipliers can be static and their battle power can still vary. If Goku is at 50% ki in his base form and he transforms into a SSJ then his ki will be 50% times the multiplier. Then he would have to raise his battle power up to 100% why would it be the case that if he is at 50% and transforms into a SSJ that his Ki would instantly be 100% times the multiplier? If that is what you are implying? We already had confirmation that Goku and others can vary their battle power even while transformed.

Furthermore I never actually gave a definitive answer as to what Enma was doing. I merely suggested some things.

And out of the two things you had suggested the one was training, mind you! You also miss the point why so many others (who tried but failed) tried to cross the snakeway too. It wasn't only Enma.

Yes, I said training. Can't he use Snakeway as a way to train? Like Goku used Karin's tower to train? I also never missed the point. Akira Toriyama stated that when a Kaio dies there will be a new one allotted to that section of the universe. So perhaps they were crossing to train with the previous Kaio? We can come up with any reason as to why these guys crossed Snakeway. The manga does not tell us why Enma crossed it so it is an open book until we are told otherwise.

Because otherwise we can make up whatever reason we want until Toriyama comes along and says differently.

But Toriyama did come long and said different things about the lore of Gods in Dragonball in 2014. That whole Shin-jin and fruit tree concept which also concerned the Kaios was retconned. You have to assume that is still applicable for Kaios when it is proven it isn’t for the Kaioshins. I assume nothing.

Where are you getting this from? The only thing that was changed in the 2014 interview was their lifespans. The tree and fruit thing is still a thing, I reference the Twel-boo mysteries interview:

The Kaiōshin are said to have the highest status in the universe, but how can you become a Kaiōshin?
No one can. Kaiōshin are born as Kaiōshin. There are three of them, and they work in shifts. Though there are two of them on duty now, if one of the Kaiōshin were to die in an accident, then the currently-inactive Kaiōshin would grow in the Kaiōshin Realm like a plant. If there aren’t any accidents, then it’s said their lifespans are about 75,000 years.

As far as I'm concerned the tree thing is still a thing as the dialogue says they grow in the Kaioshin Realm like a plant.

Furthermore we are still told that the Kaio age and die by the databooks even if there are contradictions to their actual lifespan.

Not in the manga though. And the databooks which came 15 years after the end of the manga were completely retconned regarding that lore.

They weren't completely retconned. Things have been changed but like I said the Kaioshin and Kaio still age. If it were completely retconned then they wouldn't age at all. Akira Toriyama has not once changed it so that they don't age. He has always stated they had a large lifespan but will eventually die and be replaced. The how and when of this has been changed but the why has still remained the same. They die from their life running out.

But you can't can you because you want to be right about this. Correct?

But I am right about everything I said about the map. There aren’t two ways about it. I am correct. Should I I lie and say I am wrong in order to please you? Besides why do you think Elder Kaioshin remained in his planet after dying? Doesn’t someone who dies go to the other World? The whole joke with the Elder Kaioshin getting up and screaming to Goku after dying was that it doesn't matter if you are dead or alive if you are someone who lives permanently in afterlife. North Kaio stayed in the snakeway when he was killed by the explosion in a similar fashion but snakeway is in the Other World.

You're wrong because the map says that the Kaioshin is in another realm. Even if you are right that their are mistakes you are wrong in this instance. Just because there are mistakes on the map doesn't mean everything on the map is incorrect and that you are right. By that logic I could say you were wrong about it being stated Enma went to train with the current Kaio so I must be right about everything else. It doesn't work that way. Furthermore it is the Kami's of each respective world who move the bodies to otherworld. Piccolo says this when Goku dies the first time. So the fact that the Kaio or the Kaioshin remain where they are is due to them. Rather than with Goku where he was moved to the check-in station with his body because Kami thought it would be best for Goku to receive training from the Kaio.

But through all of this I have never gone "Well I assume that time moves differently here, so that must mean Goku is more powerful there and therefore Boo is more powerful too." This is pretty much what you have done. You didn't even say that it was your assumption actually.

It is not an assumption though. It's a valid argument that counters your assumption about the infeasibility of Goku to be stronger against kid Buu than when he said he had no chance against Super Buu (if we indeed believe he referred to his SSJ3 form to begin with).

Except it doesn't counter my argument because as I brought up earlier time does not effect how long or how powerful a transformation is. The prime example coming from Gotenks. He still only had 5 mins despite coming back to the normal world. The only thing that effects a transformation is being in a dead body in the Afterlife/Earth. Because dead bodies are privy to the flow of time like living bodies are. So even if we assume that time flowed differently in the Kaioshin realm it would not make the slightest bit of difference.

Kami was also considered a deity but it was shown that he doesn't have an infinite lifepan either.

That's because he was living on Earth, obviously.

It doesn't matter where he lives his lifespan will remain the same. With Goku going into the RoSaT he doesn't convert how long he has to live in a normal time scale. It's not like this:

Goku(Earth): "My lifespan should be 100 years."
Goku(RoSaT): "My lifespan should be 100 days."

This isn't how it works. If the Kaioshin states he has 1,000 years of a lifespan left then that would be privy to whatever timeframe he is moving in. Therefore if the time scale for the Kaioshin realm is different that doesn't change how many years he has of his lifespan. Effectively:

Rou Kaioshin(Earth): "I have about 1,000 years left."
Rou Kaioshin(Kaioshin Realm): "I have about 1,000 years left."

You could say that Enma meant that he never imagined Dabra would die from being killed. Or you could take it that he never thought Dabra would die period. But why should that change anything? I imagine it is possible for their to be races that do have an infinite lifespan.

And again you're making assumptions about how the afterlife works. Nobody is specifically said to have eternal life.

Dabra, Kibito and Kaioshin kept referring to humans as mere mortals. Therefore they didn't consider themselves as mortals. The dictionary says that the opposite of mortal is someone who is not subjected to death. Then we get a statement that Dabra (who is not a mortal) was indeed someone who was not supposed to ever die. You only need to put 2 and 2 together. Can’t you? Or do you want to be spoon-fed?

You're going to play the mortal and non-mortal card? Really? You realise that this universe has different definitions of words. Gods aren't so feeble in our universe. They can do anything and everything, create life, exist forever, are omnipotent and have omnipresence. In comparison Gods in this universe are just beings who watch over their own section of the universe and are bound by lifespans and don't have as much power as some of the mortals in the universe. Kami even refers to the Z Fighters as mortals on several occasions... So should we assume that Kami is immortal too? Even though the title of Kami is passed on to another every time because the previous person has died?

Though Whis also asked if Goku would take over for Beerus when he dies. I can't imagine anybody killing Beerus but it certainly is a possibility now that we've seen another God of Destruction.

First Whis didn't say this in Super. He instead said something to Vegeta in episode 16 as a joke that he will train him if he is going to become the next god of destruction. Second, whether you can imagine something or not is irrelevant. In the movie Whis clearly implied Beerus getting killed -- given that Beerus lived for over 100million years it is highly unlikely for him to die from natural causes (assuming that this is indeed possible) by the end of Goku’s lifespan in 40-50 years in order to be replaced by him.

First of all I was referencing the movie. Secondly you can't say that it was a joke because Whis never actually said he was joking that is your own interpretation. And you also can't say that it is implied Beerus will get killed either. As the movie makes it very vague. He could be close to running out of lifespan or he could die from a powerful enemy. It really isn't clear. You're also making the assumption that Beerus has more than 40-50 years left. You can't know that. You don't know anything about his race or their lifespan apart from it is extremely long. He could only have a couple of years left.

Just because the Rou Kaioshin gave up his life does not mean that the total lifespan he had left would be Goku's. That would suggest that the transferring of Elder Kaioshin's lifespan would somehow alter the genetic make-up of Goku to make him age differently.

Or just Kaioshins age differently (originally not at all) due to living in a realm where time flows differently (originally it was not at all).

As I point out above that isn't going to change how long his lifespan is. If he says that he has 1,000 years left then that 1,000 years will equivalent to whatever timeflow he is in. If he is in the RoSaT it is still going to be a 1,000 years. It's just that 1,000 years will pass quicker in the RoSaT than on Earth. It is the same for if the Kaioshin realms time is slower than Earth. He is still going to have 1,000 years of life left.

If it were his environment then Kaio's world would be the ideal place to train indefinitely if it was just a matter of living there in other world.

Have you ever seen Goku not liking it there or aging? But he has to ask permission from Chi-Chi though too! Goku in Super also wondered if there is any difference for Kaio being dead or alive and Kaio just cited he was being ridiculed by the other Kaios.

The planet has 10x Earth's gravity anyway so of course he is going to like it there. It is better than training on Earth. But if he knew that he could train there indefinitely without ageing do you think he would spend his time on planets like Earth training? Yet he clearly does. And the whole "ageing" remark is stupid. He has never spent more than six or seven months on the planet at any one time so of course you aren't going to see him age. That's a silly question. If he had spent 10 years there then I would think that question is a valid one. But one it is a year or less of course you aren't going to see any difference between then and now. In a years time I won't look much different than I am now. And even the subtle changes are going to be unnoticeable on an anime character who does not have as much detail on their face as I do.

A dead Goku doesn't age because he is dead.

Or being dead means that he belongs in a realm where time doesn't flow.

Or being dead prevents him from experiencing the effects of time. Like I said and like the Viz novel translation equates to.

[quote="="Hitiro"]So when Goku says that time flows in the mortal realm he is specifically on about the trait inherent in dead people.

But time does flow for everyone in the mortal world, both dead and living! It is not a trait inherent only to dead people.[/quote]That is incorrect. Time doesn't flow for Goku in the mortal world. He is merely bound by staying on Earth for the day. That does not mean he ages or needs to use any bodily functions. You can not say for certain that Goku will age or anything else while he is there therefore you can't say that time flows for a dead body.

I said that Goku not ageing was a direct result of him being dead and not the environment he was in. So of course his body was the same.

There is a difference here. Goku is DEAD! That is the reason why his body can sustain SSJ3 differently than normal. Dead people because the dead don't age.

Ok let's test the logic of this claim. I ask you for which reason dead people don't age. And you answer that is because of the very fact of them being dead. Then I ask why dead Goku could use SSJ3 in the other world without problem and you answer that this is due to the very fact he was dead.

That is the reason. If he used it in otherworld while he was alive he is going to run out of time. It is a simple fact that the dead body allows him to ignore the effects of time in otherworld. While living beings like the Kaio's and Kaioshin still are effected by it. Hence why the Viz novels translate the line as "where time doesn't mean much." because the dead are not effected by it. Also hence why Goku makes a direct distinction between a living and dead body when he runs out of Ki when charging up to face boo.

Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2
Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”

Therefore it is the body that allows you to ignore such effects as time. Not the realm itself.

Now in the mortal world Goku was not given any special living body for his one-day return to the mortal world. So as far as Goku's state is concerned there was nothing that was changed. Goku has the same body and is still dead. But despite that he has trouble to use SSJ3 in the mortal world. So we can conclude that the very fact of Goku being dead is not actually relevant. Being dead is not the true reason of Goku not having trouble with SSJ3 in the Other World. The reason was the environment in the Other World favouring it. An environment that is stated to be different from the mortal world. And this difference in the environment was the flow of time. In mortal realm it flows and in the Other World it doesn't.

Goku's body was special for his one-day return. He was given 24 hours on earth. This is something at a dead body can't have unless it is given to them. For Goku to use SSJ3 he had to use up the time he was given. But as far as Goku is concerned he would not be effected by the time itself. He still won't age. He won't need the toilet. He won't need sleep. He won't need food, despite him stuffing his gullet. Kaio had already told him before that he doesn't need food while dead.

[Speedster]

I would like to continue the debate about SSJ3 and its relation with time-flow in the Other World but I would like to request from the mods, if it is possible, for all the relevant posts starting from this one to be transferred in another thread so that we do not continue derailing this thread. Thread title request: “Timeflow in afterlife/Kaioshin realm and SSJ3’s maximum power”.

But if this request is not granted I would like to finish with the following which shows what kind of self-contradictory debater Hitiro really is.

Furthermore you are making the assumption that Goku’s dead body in afterlife is physically different from the one we have seen on his return day on Earth. That is a baseless assumption as we have seen that both when Goku left the other world to come to the Earth as well as when he left Earth to go back to the other World his body was the same and unmodified.

You say I made a baseless assumption when you didn't even read what my assumption was. I said that Goku not ageing was a direct result of him being dead and not the environment he was in. So of course his body was the same.

Yet...after some further debate he says this...

Goku's body was special for his one-day return. He was given 24 hours on earth. This is something at a dead body can't have unless it is given to them.

-----------------------------
Meanwhile here is a sort of plothole with the gravity training.

Goku did a 3x gravity training with Muten Roshi, 40kg extra on his own 20kg body mass. After Karin’s traning he ascended the tower about 7-8 times faster than before suggesting a 7-8 increase in actual strength. So kid Goku could theoretically do at least 280kg weighted clothing training. Himself being 20kg this would be like 14x gravity. Yet with Kami and despite the further powerups since Karin (22nd TB, Ultra divine water) he was doing 120kg weighted clothe training (120kg on top of 75kg is 2.7x gravity). He supposedly did 10x gravity in RoSaT supposedly - that is like 750kg training (but this makes things worse for the next point so let's withhold it for the moment).

Anyway fast-forward to the Saiyan arc and he has trouble with 10x gravity on Kaio’s planet. Anyway soon enough he masters 10x gravity while also wearing Kami’s training clothes. With Kami's clothes and the planet's 10x gravity he was like weighing around 2 tons (1950kg to be exact) i.e. 26x gravity. Anyhow he mastered this 26x gravity. Yet an even stronger Goku (through Zenkai boost) started training in the spaceship with 20x gravity (without wearing heavy clothing – just Kaio’s light clothes) and he had trouble.

I would like to think Goku in the spaceship was actively suppressing his power-level for further gains. If you think about it Vegeta was still using 150x gravity in the Buu arc and Goku was happy for Kaio's 10x gravity. So it points to that instead of using heavier clothing or larger gravity they just use a lower constant percentage of their power level. If for instance a certain gravity used to be challenging for their 100% and they are now 100x stronger, they are now using only 1% of their power and so that their 1% selves are pushed higher. They increase the power level of their 1% selves hence their 100% proportionally.

Another thing is that there is subtle difference between increased gravity and heavy clothing. With gravity you also have the internal organs being pulled by gravity so it was more difficult in that regard. But this detail seems to be ignored since even infant Goku could endure it on planet Vegeta. Also Vegeta said that Whis suit puts more strain to the body than Bulma's latest gravity room so clearly gravity's effect is primarily concerned with the body's exterior.

[Hitiro]

But if this request is not granted I would like to finish with the following which shows what kind of self-contradictory debater Hitiro really is.

Furthermore you are making the assumption that Goku’s dead body in afterlife is physically different from the one we have seen on his return day on Earth. That is a baseless assumption as we have seen that both when Goku left the other world to come to the Earth as well as when he left Earth to go back to the other World his body was the same and unmodified.

You say I made a baseless assumption when you didn't even read what my assumption was. I said that Goku not ageing was a direct result of him being dead and not the environment he was in. So of course his body was the same.

Yet...after some further debate he says this...

Goku's body was special for his one-day return. He was given 24 hours on earth. This is something at a dead body can't have unless it is given to them.

This is not self contratidctory. This is a fact. If Goku's body wasn't special for his one-day return he would not be able to return to Earth for one day. Dead bodies normally do not have this feature otherwise I would assume loads of martial artists would come back and forth whenever they want. The fact that he can return to Earth is what makes it special. The very definition of "special" is "better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual." and I would count this as different from what is usual because usually dead bodies can't leave other world. So please stop with the trash talk. The only reason you avoided everything else is because you can't accept the truth. When I shut down your SSJ3-time flow theory down because SSJ3 Gotenks shows that time-flow doesn't effect his transformation limits/strength you decide to just end it with obligatory trash talk.

Meanwhile here is a sort of plothole with the gravity training.

Goku did a 3x gravity training with Muten Roshi, 40kg extra on his own 20kg body mass. After Karin’s traning he ascended the tower about 7-8 times faster than before suggesting a 7-8 increase in actual strength. So kid Goku could theoretically do at least 280kg weighted clothing training. Himself being 20kg this would be like 14x gravity. Yet with Kami and despite the further powerups since Karin (22nd TB, Ultra divine water) he was doing 120kg weighted clothe training (120kg on top of 75kg is 2.7x gravity). He supposedly did 10x gravity in RoSaT supposedly - that is like 750kg training (but this makes things worse for the next point so let's withhold it for the moment).

Anyway fast-forward to the Saiyan arc and he has trouble with 10x gravity on Kaio’s planet. Anyway soon enough he masters 10x gravity while also wearing Kami’s training clothes. With Kami's clothes and the planet's 10x gravity he was like weighing around 2 tons (1950kg to be exact) i.e. 26x gravity. Anyhow he mastered this 26x gravity. Yet an even stronger Goku (through Zenkai boost) started training in the spaceship with 20x gravity (without wearing heavy clothing – just Kaio’s light clothes) and he had trouble.

I would like to think Goku in the spaceship was actively suppressing his power-level for further gains. If you think about it Vegeta was still using 150x gravity in the Buu arc and Goku was happy for Kaio's 10x gravity. So it points to that instead of using heavier clothing or larger gravity they just use a lower constant percentage of their power level. If for instance a certain gravity used to be challenging for their 100% and they are now 100x stronger, they are now using only 1% of their power and so that their 1% selves are pushed higher. They increase the power level of their 1% selves hence their 100% proportionally.

Another thing is that there is subtle difference between increased gravity and heavy clothing. With gravity you also have the internal organs being pulled by gravity so it was more difficult in that regard. But this detail seems to be ignored since even infant Goku could endure it on planet Vegeta. Also Vegeta said that Whis suit puts more strain to the body than Bulma's latest gravity room so clearly gravity's effect is primarily concerned with the body's exterior.

The average weight for a 15 year old is 56 kg. Goku would be more than that because he is mostly muscle. And the suits that Whis prepared distribute the weight across the whole body. That is why they are more difficult. Goku would wear weighted clothes but these weights focused around the protrusion of his ligaments, I.E. his wrists and feet. With also a weighted chest piece. In actuality Goku would only be affected by the weight of his shoes when he lifted them off the ground. And it would be much easier for him to move them going from no strain. Just like how weight lifters use their burst of strength in the initial lift to bring the bar up to their chest. Because they use their strength to bring it up to that level rather than using their strength to maintain the weight at a certain level. The most difficult pieces would be Goku's wristbands and chest piece. Also Goku was on Planet Vegeta for 3 years. The average weight of a 3 year old is almost 15kg. So he would be equivalent twice the weight of a mixed martial artist in the welterweight class. Or 30 kg heavier than a heavyweight fighter. But anyway, you can't compare gravity training to weight training. Because gravity training effects every inch of your body. The closest you would get to it is having a suit like Whis provided them. Carrying a shell which is 40 kg is actually much easier than being 40 kg heavier across your whole body. Because you just need to focus your strength into a specific area rather than spread it out. A weight lifer may be able to lift 2 tons but if their bodies weighed that then they would not be able to get up with the way the weight is shifted in their bodies.

[Speedster]

fact that he can return to Earth is what makes it special. The very definition of "special" is "better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual." and I would count this as different from what is usual because usually dead bodies can't leave other world. So please stop with the trash talk. The only reason you avoided everything else is because you can't accept the truth.

The fact of the matter is that you say one thing one time and the opposite thing next time. Clearly your tactic is to drag on debates (apparently you have lots of free time allowing you to do so) and by hiding behind the sheer length of the conversation you shamelessly move the goalposts until the other person gives up because of time constraints.

When I shut down your SSJ3-time flow theory down because SSJ3 Gotenks shows that time-flow doesn't effect his transformation limits/strength you decide to just end it with obligatory trash talk.

I don't really feel the need to respond to everything we discuss. There must be a need for that and your responses to my arguments are either non-sense or fallacies and don't counter anything from what I say. That said because you don't realise this and like a pigeon that plays chess you are strutting around the board acting as if you have won (while in fact you just knocked over all the pieces and crapped on the board), I have actually bothered to waste more time and write responses not only to everything you said in your previous post about Gotenks, timeflow etc but also about all the previous non-sense you spouted about body limits compared to ki attacks. However for the sake of not derailing this thread further I held back from posting them here and this is why I have requested for a thread split.

-----------

And the suits that Whis prepared distribute the weight across the whole body. That is why they are more difficult. Goku would wear weighted clothes but these weights focused around the protrusion of his ligaments, I.E. his wrists and feet. With also a weighted chest piece. In actuality Goku would only be affected by the weight of his shoes when he lifted them off the ground. And it would be much easier for him to move them going from no strain.But anyway, you can't compare gravity training to weight training. Because gravity training effects every inch of your body. The closest you would get to it is having a suit like Whis provided them.

The weighted clothing versus gravity of course has differences but exercising with weighted clothing or shadowboxing the weight does end up training every muscle over your entire body. It is also generally more difficult to deal with a concentrated weight than a uniformly distributed one across multiple muscles. I can wear a shirt, trousers and shoes of total weight 20kgs (5 kgs each) but I will find it much harder to wear a 20kg shirt or 20kg trousers. Also if I wear 20kgs shoes each time I move I exercise all my leg muscles too with the weight of 20kgs. Most importantly there is the great benefit from the weight placement (like for example the shoes and wrists) as it requires you to provide a greater force to overcome not only the weight but also the opposing torque. The torque is produced due to the position of the weight’s centre of mass relative to where your relevant muscles apply the force. Watch this video segment (watch between 1:37 and 2:09) to at least get the gist of some very basic real mechanics knowledge.

[Hitiro]

fact that he can return to Earth is what makes it special. The very definition of "special" is "better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual." and I would count this as different from what is usual because usually dead bodies can't leave other world. So please stop with the trash talk. The only reason you avoided everything else is because you can't accept the truth.

The fact of the matter is that you say one thing one time and the opposite thing next time. Clearly your tactic is to drag on debates (apparently you have lots of free time allowing you to do so) and by hiding behind the sheer length of the conversation you shamelessly move the goalposts until the other person gives up because of time constraints.

The issue here is that when you're presented with something that you can't retort against your first option is to resort to instults. Which is frankly disgraceful. I have stuck by my guns throughout the discussion. You're the one who is coming up with random assumptions to back up your own argument. I have repeatedly used the source material to get my point across. But when you're presented with such stuff you either call the creator on his mistakes or posit a new assumption to counter whatever I provide. I have given you the reason as to why I said Goku's body is special. Because, as I said, normally a dead person can't come back from the afterlife. The only way for them to do so is by, probably, Enma Daio. Otherwise a dead person is bound to the afterlife. So Goku is special in that regard. As is Grandpa Gohan and the other martial artists who were given a day to return to Earth. This is a fact. Not an assumption as you're claiming I'm making.

When I shut down your SSJ3-time flow theory down because SSJ3 Gotenks shows that time-flow doesn't effect his transformation limits/strength you decide to just end it with obligatory trash talk.

I don't really feel the need to respond to everything we discuss. There must be a need for that and your responses to my arguments are either non-sense or fallacies and don't counter anything from what I say. That said because you don't realise this and like a pigeon that plays chess you are strutting around the board acting as if you have won (while in fact you just knocked over all the pieces and crapped on the board), I have actually bothered to waste more time and write responses not only to everything you said in your previous post about Gotenks, timeflow etc but also about all the previous non-sense you spouted about body limits compared to ki attacks. However for the sake of not derailing this thread further I held back from posting them here and this is why I have requested for a thread split.

Here we go again. Insults. When you are presented with something that you cant retort to your first option is insults. By saying things like "your arguments are non-sense or fallacies." You need to grow up. In fact, I don't do this often but I'm reporting you for being offensive. There really is no reason for you to be as insulting as you are. Just because I've provided things that you can't avoid. The issue here is that you can't except you being wrong on something. A prime example is when you said it was stated that Enma crossed Snake Way to train with Kaio. Yet nothing was stated as such. The only thing that was stated was that he did cross Snakeway. But instead of saying "my bad" you went and said that I was "clutching at straws."

-----------

The weighted clothing versus gravity of course has differences but exercising with weighted clothing or shadowboxing the weight does end up training every muscle over your entire body. It is also generally more difficult to deal with a concentrated weight than a uniformly distributed one across multiple muscles. I can wear a shirt, trousers and shoes of total weight 20kgs (5 kgs each) but I will find it much harder to wear a 20kg shirt or 20kg trousers. Also if I wear 20kgs shoes each time I move I exercise all my leg muscles too with the weight of 20kgs. Most importantly there is the great benefit from the weight placement (like for example the shoes and wrists) as it requires you to provide a greater force to overcome not only the weight but also the opposing torque. The torque is produced due to the position of the weight’s centre of mass relative to where your relevant muscles apply the force. Watch this video segment (watch between 1:37 and 2:09) to at least get the gist of some very basic real mechanics knowledge.

I am familiar with physics, I was in the highest graded level for science when I was in school. I am also have a bachelor's degree at computer science where a good percentage of my course was dedicated to physics because it focused on games development we had to understand how objects interacted when traveling at given velocities, how gravity works, how light behaves for graphical purposes, etc. The video you linked is not a good example by the way. Because that is about centrifugal force. This would not be generated by Goku and the others unless they were spinning on the spot.

[VegettoEX]

Account strikes have been issued, and as always, are not up for debate. Please review the community guidelines, which you agreed to (twice) prior to registration, before making additional contributions. These gigantic back-and-forths with a sarcastic, dismissive tone are unacceptable and ain't nobody got time for that.

[Speedster]

Account strikes have been issued, and as always, are not up for debate. Please review the community guidelines, which you agreed to (twice) prior to registration, before making additional contributions. These gigantic back-and-forths with a sarcastic, dismissive tone are unacceptable and ain't nobody got time for that.

Could you please let me know if it is only me who got an account strike because of this? Thanks.

[VegettoEX]

As noted, this is not up for debate or elaboration. Please worry about your own conduct and carry on with the actual conversation at hand if you are willing to comply with the guidelines that you have already agreed to.

[Desassina]

So, does anyone think that SSJ2 is a Super Saiyan's full power with a strength increase, and that SSJ3 is to go even further beyond (on both)? The reasons being that SSJ2 has never been stated to have an energy cap, nor waste Goku's time on Earth, despite the characters calling it "ascending". After Goku labeled it SSJ2, Super Saiyan 3 was the only form to behave like a power up beyond one's limits, which came with a hindrance on both the dead and the fused. Perhaps SSJ2 was only an energy waster for Gohan, because he hadn't trained, which could explain the Buu saga forcing his full power without the perks of an "ascended" form. What's left to be explained is Goku's full power as a SSJ3, which he alluded to against Kid Buu, making the whole deal more confusing. I guess that it's what Speedster was trying to inspire through another argument.

[Hitiro]

So, does anyone think that SSJ2 is a Super Saiyan's full power with a strength increase, and that SSJ3 is to go even further beyond (on both)? The reasons being that SSJ2 has never been stated to have an energy cap, nor waste Goku's time on Earth, despite the characters calling it "ascending". After Goku labeled it SSJ2, Super Saiyan 3 was the only form to behave like a power up beyond one's limits, which came with a hindrance on both the dead and the fused. Perhaps SSJ2 was only an energy waster for Gohan, because he hadn't trained, which could explain the Buu saga forcing his full power without the perks of an "ascended" form. What's left to be explained is Goku's full power as a SSJ3, which he alluded to against Kid Buu, making the whole deal more confusing. I guess that it's what Speedster was trying to inspire through another argument.

I would imagine that any SSJ transformation would waste his time in Earth. But the amount of time SSJ 1 and 2 waste is so small because they are more efficient power wise that it isn't worth mentioning. Something like if Goku were to maintain the forms for most of the day he is going to lose only a couple of minutes to an hour.

The way Goku words it gives the impression that energy is equivalent to time when he is on Earth. But that is just my own personal impression.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Dragon Ball Super produced a huge one: Vegeta becoming a Super Saiyan Blue without having to become a Super Saiyan God, which was stated to be mandatory for any user to achieve the form in the first place. Instead, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan Blue by just training. What bullshit. It's a big, fat fucking plot hole no matter what way you look at it.

It's not really a plot-hole. Whis explained to Vegeta that by getting control of his ki, he can surpass Goku with SSG power. This seems to be a reference to his rage boost, where he displayed incredible power that he couldn't control, and he was about 7 times weaker than SSG Goku with that power. This implies that the SSG power is dormant inside every Saiyan, so Vegeta temporarily tapped to that power against Beerus, and then got full control over it through his training with Whis, which eventually allowed him to become a Super Saiyan Blue.

Yes, it wasn't explained properly, but the implications are still there. Big fat fucking plot-holes are the ones that are impossible to explain, like the Dragon Balls been active after 8 months in the 23rd TB arc.

[Darkprince410]

Dragon Ball Super produced a huge one: Vegeta becoming a Super Saiyan Blue without having to become a Super Saiyan God, which was stated to be mandatory for any user to achieve the form in the first place. Instead, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan Blue by just training. What bullshit. It's a big, fat fucking plot hole no matter what way you look at it.

To be fair, it was never stated to be mandatory. The Ssj God ritual in itself was never said to be the only way for a Saiya-jin to obtain godly ki, just the only way that Shenlon knew about from the book of legends he was pulling his information from, as it was how the previous god came to be. So, in itself, it's not a plot hole.

[Lord Beerus]

It's not really a plot-hole. Whis explained to Vegeta that by getting control of his ki, he can surpass Goku with SSG power. This seems to be a reference to his rage boost, where he displayed incredible power that he couldn't control, and he was about 7 times weaker than SSG Goku with that power. This implies that the SSG power is dormant inside every Saiyan, so Vegeta temporarily tapped to that power against Beerus, and then got full control over it through his training with Whis, which eventually allowed him to become a Super Saiyan Blue.

Yes, it wasn't explained properly, but the implications are still there. Big fat fucking plot-holes are the ones that are impossible to explain, like the Dragon Balls been active after 8 months in the 23rd TB arc.

To be fair, it was never stated to be mandatory. The Ssj God ritual in itself was never said to be the only way for a Saiya-jin to obtain godly ki, just the only way that Shenlon knew about from the book of legends he was pulling his information from, as it was how the previous god came to be. So, in itself, it's not a plot hole.

Then Goku should have never said in Super, when he became a Super Saiyan Blue, that the form was the result of a “Saiyan who’s a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”. That line, in my opinion, destroys any kind of loophole that can be given for Vegeta skipping Super Saiyan God to become a Super Saiyan Blue. It just doesn't add up. If Goku doesn't explicitly say that line, I wouldn't have that much of an issue with Vegeta going straight to Super Saiyan Blue without the Super Saiyan God transformation, because nothing is really established or implied about how the form is achieved. But Goku flat out states the basic circumstances of how he attained the form. And that's the big problem. If we have to accept that Vegeta became a Super Saiyan Blue without becoming a Super Saiyan God, then we have to ignore everything Goku said about how he became a Super Saiyan Blue in Resurrection F and Dragon Ball Super. So, yeah, I'm sticking to my guns. It's a big, fat fucking plothole now matter what way you look at it.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku wasn't saying that was a form only a Saiyan that had been a Super Saiyan God could achieve. Goku and Vegeta actually became much stronger due to training, not because they already had Super Saiyan God's power. SSB just happens to have it, when they were called to Earth.