Anyone consider or want GT as canon?

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I've given Dragon Ball GT more than a fair chance ever since it first broadcast in the UK, but I just find it so painfully awful to watch I can never get through more than the first few episodes. I'm glad it generally isn't considered "canon" as that might be enough to completely spoil the series for me.

The first arc is like the great saiyaman arc, just skip it and try watching Goku fight Baby, it's a nice story, along with the rest but the first arc of GT is putting it's worst foot forward, if Z opened with the great saiyaman it'd not be a beloved. But at least it has some fighting in it unlike that arc.

[Kuririn Fan]

I've given Dragon Ball GT more than a fair chance ever since it first broadcast in the UK, but I just find it so painfully awful to watch I can never get through more than the first few episodes. I'm glad it generally isn't considered "canon" as that might be enough to completely spoil the series for me.

The first arc is like the great saiyaman arc, just skip it and try watching Goku fight Baby, it's a nice story, along with the rest but the first arc of GT is putting it's worst foot forward, if Z opened with the great saiyaman it'd not be a beloved. But at least it has some fighting in it unlike that arc.

First 15 episodes are nothing like Great Saiyaman, Great Saiyaman is awesome. A lot of people really like it, including Toriyama.

[Cetra]

I've given Dragon Ball GT more than a fair chance ever since it first broadcast in the UK, but I just find it so painfully awful to watch I can never get through more than the first few episodes. I'm glad it generally isn't considered "canon" as that might be enough to completely spoil the series for me.

The first arc is like the great saiyaman arc, just skip it and try watching Goku fight Baby, it's a nice story, along with the rest but the first arc of GT is putting it's worst foot forward, if Z opened with the great saiyaman it'd not be a beloved. But at least it has some fighting in it unlike that arc.

First 15 episodes are nothing like Great Saiyaman, Great Saiyaman is awesome. A lot of people really like it, including Toriyama.

Toriyama-san liked GT too and even considered making a manga of it (though he said that while laughing and said he had no intention of continuing making the manga). You can look it up on kanzenshuu.

[Kuririn Fan]

No, he didn't. Even if he did, he was just being polite. Just like that: " Thank you for bying this! Let's enjoy this grand side story!"

[VegettoEX]

and even considered making a manga of it (though he said that while laughing and said he had no intention of continuing making the manga). You can look it up on kanzenshuu.

That's... not entirely accurate. I mean, it sorta is. Here's the actual statement (from the Shenlong Times that accompanied Daizenshuu 7):

I'll check the stories that come up from Toei Animation, and give them a little bit of advice. Also, I've drawn just a few characters and illustrations. But it's interesting! It feels like, "Ah, so they could do it this way". I think everyone at Toei Animation really racked their brains. Good work. To think they'd make Goku little. With this story, I might even be able to continue the manga serialization again… though I have absolutely no intention of drawing it. (laughs)

What he's basically saying is that Toei managed to come up with a way to continue the story onward, and the reading I have there is that Toriyama personally didn't really have an idea of where to take it after he ended it in the manga. What he then goes on to say is that, oh, since someone came up with a way to continue the story, if it were to come down to it, I'd be able to take that story and then continue onward myself. Of course, as you noted, he (at that point in time) had absolutely no intention/desire to work on the the series further.

So it's not really that he considered specifically making a Dragon Ball GT manga... it's a bit more nebulous/vague/theoretical than that.

[Cetra]

No, he didn't. Even if he did, he was just being polite. Just like that: " Thank you for bying this! Let's enjoy this grand side story!"

You didn't even read the interview the man himself was a part of. That is extremely counter-productive, just like the entire rest of your irrational hatred.

VegettoEX, I think his positive feelings plus the "with this" say much. Of course I have not seen the original.

[Kuririn Fan]

No, he didn't. Even if he did, he was just being polite. Just like that: " Thank you for bying this! Let's enjoy this grand side story!"

You didn't even read the interview the man himself was a part of. That is extremely counter-productive, just like the entire rest of your irrational hatred.

VegettoEX, I think his positive feelings plus the "with this" say much. Of course I have not seen the original.

Neither have you, you only heard what you wanted to hear.

[Cetra]

No, he didn't. Even if he did, he was just being polite. Just like that: " Thank you for bying this! Let's enjoy this grand side story!"

You didn't even read the interview the man himself was a part of. That is extremely counter-productive, just like the entire rest of your irrational hatred.

VegettoEX, I think his positive feelings plus the "with this" say much. Of course I have not seen the original.

Neither have you, you only heard what you wanted to hear.

What are you even talking about? I have read the interview. VegettoEX even said how much I was right about it, just pointed out that it was a bit more foggy. Really nothing you say contributes to anything useful, even your comment about him just being polite was a baseless claim without knowing the interview and clearly influenced by your hatred, resulting in a comparison with the Great Saiyaman saga, leaving the impression Toriyama-san liked that one but not what he said about GT. Please remove that factor so people can finally have a normal conversation with you, anything else is really not even worth posting as it indicates you not even being interested in differentiating between what is and is not. We get it. You hate GT.

[VegettoEX]

Neither of you are particularly in-the-right here in terms of moving the conversation forward. Scale it back, please.

[ABED]

Dragon Ball jumped the shark way before that. I'd say the moment that is was revealed that Goku was an alien is when Dragon Ball changed forever. That's when Dragon Ball practically ended to any kind of homages to Journey Of The West or other wuxia tales and focused more on "who can power up or transform the quickest".

That doesn't make it a jump the shark moment. Sure it was different, but I fail to see how that constitutes declining in quality. The moment it jumped the shark for me was either the end of the Saiyan arc or the Freeza arc. The Saiyan arc had a lot of amazing moments and a final battle that was dramatic, well plotted, and exciting.

I won't deny that, but the Saiyan arc was responsible for introducing several tropes that the franchise would later use and abuse like nothing before. It's still my favourite arc in all of Dragon Ball

Not really relevant to Jumping the Shark. Even if elements that are abused later are introduced here, that doesn't mean that the elements were bad or used badly at this point. And if it's your favorite arc, how do you reconcile that with the idea that the show jumped the shark in the first few episodes?

I don't care if GT is canon, I still find it enjoyable regardless.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Dragon Ball jumped the shark way before that. I'd say the moment that is was revealed that Goku was an alien is when Dragon Ball changed forever. That's when Dragon Ball practically ended to any kind of homages to Journey Of The West or other wuxia tales and focused more on "who can power up or transform the quickest".

That doesn't make it a jump the shark moment. Sure it was different, but I fail to see how that constitutes declining in quality. The moment it jumped the shark for me was either the end of the Saiyan arc or the Freeza arc. The Saiyan arc had a lot of amazing moments and a final battle that was dramatic, well plotted, and exciting.

I think the jump the shark moment of the show we watch can only be subjective, as one person's fall from grace season could be another's cherished season. A lot of people call post Frieza non canon and others say things like "Toriyama was forced by the fans to go on past the cell games arc. Buu isn't canon. Gohan is the strongest and killed Cell. That's the true ending."

I say once Beerus showed up the show was in a reboot of severely lower quality. But I don't think the franchise dead. A lot of people do think Beerus and super ruined dragonball, others say giving SSJ to others besides Goku did. It's all opinionated. None of it's factual. I kind of agree buu saga was a downgrade of the cell saga...but the animation was better. I think each saga from ball -GT all have something they did best.

[ABED]

That wasn't what I said at all. Yes where a show jumps the shark, if it ever does, is a matter of personal opinion, but I was pointing out that by the poster's own logic, that point in the show wouldn't be the jump the shark moment for him. It wouldn't be unless the Saiyan revelation was the high point of the story and everything else was all downhill from then on, in which case I would wonder how the Saiyan arc was his favorite.

[ShaneisMC]

I still dont see how seemingly people haven't come to the conclusion I presented. I mean unless I'm missing something major it makes sense to me to just see the overall series as having a few different continuities with varying levels of idk what word would be most appropriate. Validity? Importance? Whatever. All the manga as written by Toriyama since he is the original author. Kai version of series with Super since the point is to be as close to the manga as possible. Then the original anime with all the additional content not necessarily created by the original author. So all the filler+GT. Not only does this just in general seem to make sense to me but it also helps put away the "oh this just flat out doesnt count" way of thinking. Just view things as alternative.

[ABED]

I still dont see how seemingly people haven't come to the conclusion I presented. I mean unless I'm missing something major it makes sense to me to just see the overall series as having a few different continuities with varying levels of idk what word would be most appropriate. Validity? Importance? Whatever. All the manga as written by Toriyama since he is the original author. Kai version of series with Super since the point is to be as close to the manga as possible. Then the original anime with all the additional content not necessarily created by the original author. So all the filler+GT. Not only does this just in general seem to make sense to me but it also helps put away the "oh this just flat out doesnt count" way of thinking. Just view things as alternative.

I agree that adaptations have their own canon.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I still dont see how seemingly people haven't come to the conclusion I presented. I mean unless I'm missing something major it makes sense to me to just see the overall series as having a few different continuities with varying levels of idk what word would be most appropriate. Validity? Importance? Whatever. All the manga as written by Toriyama since he is the original author. Kai version of series with Super since the point is to be as close to the manga as possible. Then the original anime with all the additional content not necessarily created by the original author. So all the filler+GT. Not only does this just in general seem to make sense to me but it also helps put away the "oh this just flat out doesnt count" way of thinking. Just view things as alternative.

So you go with there's different canons? I agree if that's what you mean. I couldn't follow along with what you wrote. It's not how it was written I'm sick right now and can't think straight haha.

[ShaneisMC]

I still dont see how seemingly people haven't come to the conclusion I presented. I mean unless I'm missing something major it makes sense to me to just see the overall series as having a few different continuities with varying levels of idk what word would be most appropriate. Validity? Importance? Whatever. All the manga as written by Toriyama since he is the original author. Kai version of series with Super since the point is to be as close to the manga as possible. Then the original anime with all the additional content not necessarily created by the original author. So all the filler+GT. Not only does this just in general seem to make sense to me but it also helps put away the "oh this just flat out doesnt count" way of thinking. Just view things as alternative.

So you go with there's different canons? I agree if that's what you mean. I couldn't follow along with what you wrote. It's not how it was written I'm sick right now and can't think straight haha.

Yeah pretty much. I see it pretty simply. All of the manga from Jaco through now Super since that is all straight from Toriyama (yes i realize with Super he doesnt directly draw it, whatever) is the most important since it is the original source material and therefore holds the highest authority. The Kai adaptation of the series would come next in line since the point is to be an anime adaptation that is as close as possible to the original material. Unfortunately we don't have an official Dragon Ball Kai, but the fan cut of it is really, really nice. So DB/Z Kai and Super. I more or less see them as the same since I mean again the point is for them to be essentially the same after all. Then theres the original anime with all of its filler and GT. Thats where a lot of people get things all jumbled up and they try to have everything out all together when obviously these things in many instances were never meant to. So I just see the original anime as its own continuity and see it as like the alternate thing. So all of DB/Z/GT.

[z_cherub]

As much as I've forced myself to enjoy Super, that switch just isn't clicking. For someone who prefers Bruce's score and the long tense fights with brutal violence battle damaging destruction, this isn't the show for me. I feel as though the characters aren't acting like the way they did during the Z era so i do not want Super to be my canon. I'd rather follow the movie versions if anything. The power level issues get to me as well in Super..

So then where does GT fall for you? With the movies and Z? Or do you just want the films? Some people just have a head canon of ball+Z.

GT to me is just the story after Z. I count BoG and RoF as canon after Buu but not Super. I pray they just make a third movie with the Universe 6 arc.

I also say SSJ4> SSGB.

Studio-made cash grab? "Totally legit"

Toriyama himself creatively behind it - "pshh - didn't happen"

Makes sense to me...

FWIW, I like GT okay, I just put it on par with the movies. Didn't happen in AT's continuity, but still a fun little story for the most part.

[z_cherub]

I've given Dragon Ball GT more than a fair chance ever since it first broadcast in the UK, but I just find it so painfully awful to watch I can never get through more than the first few episodes. I'm glad it generally isn't considered "canon" as that might be enough to completely spoil the series for me.

The first arc is like the great saiyaman arc, just skip it and try watching Goku fight Baby, it's a nice story, along with the rest but the first arc of GT is putting it's worst foot forward, if Z opened with the great saiyaman it'd not be a beloved. But at least it has some fighting in it unlike that arc.

Couple questions:

-have you seen Dragon Ball?
-Are you a dub fan?

Not saying anything negative necessarily, but some of this would explain why you seem to look at the series the way you do.

[Deathbringer]

I sometimes see people around on like YouTube and on this forum saying that "GT isn't canon anymore", I always thought GT was never considered canon to the manga because Toriyama wasn't involved with the story, similar to the movies and filler story arcs in Z. I can understand seeing it as a continuation to Dragon Ball Z, the anime, but as a genuine continuation of Dragon Ball, the manga, I don't see it. Especially now, with the Battle of Gods movie and Resurrection F both having stories written by Toriyama and also both making no effort to match up with GT (in fact the whole Pilaf gang as children thing feels like a direct callout to GT) while at the same time making effort to link with the manga, such as the inclusion of Pan, although there are definitely issues like Goku no longer using the SSJG/SSJGSSJ forms when he fights Oob.

Also the most important thing to note is 'Non-Canon =/= Bad', and 'Canon =/= Good'. You can like GT as much as you want just like how people can hate Dragon Ball Minus or Resurrection F, or even the Boo saga as much as they want.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I've given Dragon Ball GT more than a fair chance ever since it first broadcast in the UK, but I just find it so painfully awful to watch I can never get through more than the first few episodes. I'm glad it generally isn't considered "canon" as that might be enough to completely spoil the series for me.

The first arc is like the great saiyaman arc, just skip it and try watching Goku fight Baby, it's a nice story, along with the rest but the first arc of GT is putting it's worst foot forward, if Z opened with the great saiyaman it'd not be a beloved. But at least it has some fighting in it unlike that arc.

Couple questions:

-have you seen Dragon Ball?
-Are you a dub fan?

Not saying anything negative necessarily, but some of this would explain why you seem to look at the series the way you do.

I'm glad you're trying to say whatever you're saying nicely, but what does that even mean? What does watching ball and the dub have to do with the liking GT?

I've seen ball and love it. I've seen ball AND Z AND GT. All of them in Japanese AND funimation dub AND ocean dub. I am indeed a proud dub fan. Grew up with this stuff on toonami.

I still dont see how seemingly people haven't come to the conclusion I presented. I mean unless I'm missing something major it makes sense to me to just see the overall series as having a few different continuities with varying levels of idk what word would be most appropriate. Validity? Importance? Whatever. All the manga as written by Toriyama since he is the original author. Kai version of series with Super since the point is to be as close to the manga as possible. Then the original anime with all the additional content not necessarily created by the original author. So all the filler+GT. Not only does this just in general seem to make sense to me but it also helps put away the "oh this just flat out doesnt count" way of thinking. Just view things as alternative.

So you go with there's different canons? I agree if that's what you mean. I couldn't follow along with what you wrote. It's not how it was written I'm sick right now and can't think straight haha.

Yeah pretty much. I see it pretty simply. All of the manga from Jaco through now Super since that is all straight from Toriyama (yes i realize with Super he doesnt directly draw it, whatever) is the most important since it is the original source material and therefore holds the highest authority. The Kai adaptation of the series would come next in line since the point is to be an anime adaptation that is as close as possible to the original material. Unfortunately we don't have an official Dragon Ball Kai, but the fan cut of it is really, really nice. So DB/Z Kai and Super. I more or less see them as the same since I mean again the point is for them to be essentially the same after all. Then theres the original anime with all of its filler and GT. Thats where a lot of people get things all jumbled up and they try to have everything out all together when obviously these things in many instances were never meant to. So I just see the original anime as its own continuity and see it as like the alternate thing. So all of DB/Z/GT.

Agreed.

I sometimes see people around on like YouTube and on this forum saying that "GT isn't canon anymore", I always thought GT was never considered canon to the manga because Toriyama wasn't involved with the story, similar to the movies and filler story arcs in Z. I can understand seeing it as a continuation to Dragon Ball Z, the anime, but as a genuine continuation of Dragon Ball, the manga, I don't see it. Especially now, with the Battle of Gods movie and Resurrection F both having stories written by Toriyama and also both making no effort to match up with GT (in fact the whole Pilaf gang as children thing feels like a direct callout to GT) while at the same time making effort to link with the manga, such as the inclusion of Pan, although there are definitely issues like Goku no longer using the SSJG/SSJGSSJ forms when he fights Oob.

Also the most important thing to note is 'Non-Canon =/= Bad', and 'Canon =/= Good'. You can like GT as much as you want just like how people can hate Dragon Ball Minus or Resurrection F, or even the Boo saga as much as they want.

THANK YOU. It's canon to the first two animes, but not to the manga. I hate when people act like "wow I don't like this. There it's non canon." And I hate even more when people say "wow I like this, or rather I would if it wasn't on canon." I've seen people say and think they can't and shouldn't like something if non canon in their eyes. On fusion reborn comments people say if it was canon it'd be okay to like it, but since it's non canon you're a "fake fan" for liking it....like really? Supporting the official release is being a fake fan? Liking a draognball movie makes me a "fake" dragonball fan? Yeah, seams logical. I hate elitists. It's fine to prefer the dub,manga or Japanese version or whatever you prefer, but when kids act like they're better for liking one aspect of a franchise and hate the rest, it's ridiculous.