Theories On the Origin of Black

[Kakarotto92]

Was rewatching all the scenes featuring Zamasu today and honestly, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Black actually being Gowasu.

In fact, the more he appears and acts in new episodes, the more suspicious I find him, and rewatching his scenes today only cemented my suspicion.

For instance:

-The way he keeps stressing to Zamasu that only Hakaishins are allowed to interfere with the world and the kaioshin's role is simply to observe, it's almost like Gowasu is implying that Zamasu's worldview about mortals being unnecessary would be acceptable as long as it was enforced by an Hakaishin. This correlates with the theory about Black and Zamasu being the Hakaishin and Kaioshin (respectively) of Mirai Trunks' timeline, replacing the deceased Beerus and Kaioshin.

-Despite being aware of Zamasu's mental instability, Gowasu still deliberately keeps telling and teaching him a bunch of critical info: tells him about the Time Rings and how they function, shows him a species of barbarian aliens not being able to evolve into a civilization even after 1000 years (which only aggravated Zamasu's instability), shows him footage of Goku going SSGSS and to top it all off, tells him about the Super Dragon Balls. Either Gowasu was plotting something with all this or he's just downright irresponsible and incompetent as a master.

-This one is a bit of a stretch and it might just be my imagination, but I noticed that the voice acting as well as accent of Gowasu seems to be quite similiar to that of Black. It's almost like Nozawa and Gowasu's VA are playing the same character, only with their own respective voices.

-The way Gowasu reacted to Goku and Zamasu's fight also caught my attention.I noticed that Toei put quite a bit of emphasis on how overwhelmed Gowasu was with Goku's power. Were they trying to tell us something more?

-His passive attitude and almost indifference as Zamasu's turns to the dark side right in front of his eyes.

All this leads me to think that Gowasu might be manipulating Zamasu through reverse psychology (telling him kaioshins should just observe and never act, while secretly wishing him to do the opposite) and is deliberately instigating him to hate mortals and to put into pratice his genocidal fantasy. Then, somewhere along the line, Gowasu would eventually reveal his true intentions to Zamasu and the two would become the Hakaishin and Kaioshin of Mirai Trunks timeline.

He would basically be Palpatine to Zamasu's Anakin, only using reverse psychology this time.

For the record, this is just a wild theory I came up with out of boredom, I still put my money on Black being just a life force created by Zamasu which then possessed Mirai Goku's dead body. This life force is basically a "spiritual clone" of Zamasu, hence why Black shares the same ki and beliefs/way of thinking as him.

[dragonballhero]

I rewatched the next episode preview and I'm curious about where Gokû could be standing that would have lighting like that. It looks very inside his own head sort of thing.

That's exactly what I was trying to explain in my post. I wondered if that's supposed to be Black, right after his...."initial conception"...? I guess would be one way to put it..?

[vilker]

Zamasu and Black have an earring in the same place, so they use to go to the future, maybe Zamasu needs a partner for travel through time.

I doubt Black could be a Hakaishin, only Kaioh Shins are allowed to use the ring of time and also has a pothala, so Black must be a Kaioh Shin.

Creation is also difficult to believe, because his words: that body doesn't belong to him.

Possesion of mirai Goku could be possible, but...
-He has Zamasu similar ki.
-Mirai Goku was very weak -but could train in the other world-,
-He has to learn movements and techniques fighting Goku.

Still I see this theory more coherent.

But I have noticed when Goku hits his punch with Zamasu or Black, notes something similar but different. So I believe there are 3 Zamasus with 3 different wishes: inmortal body, most powerfull (or potential) body and in the next chapter we will see the last wish.

If the present Zamasu would be the future Zamasu, then Goku would notice the same feeling, but They emphasize that are different, so is from another timeline. Besides would be a paradox, in dragon ball there are no time paradox, there are alternatives timelines cause the time travels.

[marcbret87]

Zamasu and Black have an earring in the same place, so they use to go to the future, maybe Zamasu needs a partner for travel through time.

I doubt Black could be a Hakaishin, only Kaioh Shins are allowed to use the ring of time and also has a pothala, so Black must be a Kaioh Shin.

Creation is also difficult to believe, because his words: that body doesn't belong to him.

Possesion of mirai Goku could be possible, but...
-He has Zamasu similar ki.
-Mirai Goku was very weak -but could train in the other world-,
-He has to learn movements and techniques fighting Goku.

Still I see this theory more coherent.

But I have noticed when Goku hits his punch with Zamasu or Black, notes something similar but different. So I believe there are 3 Zamasus with 3 different wishes: inmortal body, most powerfull (or potential) body and in the next chapter we will see the last wish.

If the present Zamasu would be the future Zamasu, then Goku would notice the same feeling, but They emphasize that are different, so is from another timeline. Besides would be a paradox, in dragon ball there are no time paradox, there are alternatives timelines cause the time travels.

I understand this different as it being that Zamasu is now more powerful, but so far I'd say all signs point to the Zamasu they have just met in the Trunks timeline being the future version of the one in the main Super timeline.

So, my guess is that Black Goku is a version of Goku that accepted the job of being a God of Destruction. Our Goku had received this offer before, but had declined.

That would not really explain the lines talking about Goku's body he is using as if it wasn't his own. I

[GodKaio-Ken]

Zamasu and Black have an earring in the same place, so they use to go to the future, maybe Zamasu needs a partner for travel through time.

I doubt Black could be a Hakaishin, only Kaioh Shins are allowed to use the ring of time and also has a pothala, so Black must be a Kaioh Shin.

Creation is also difficult to believe, because his words: that body doesn't belong to him.

Possesion of mirai Goku could be possible, but...
-He has Zamasu similar ki.
-Mirai Goku was very weak -but could train in the other world-,
-He has to learn movements and techniques fighting Goku.

Still I see this theory more coherent.

But I have noticed when Goku hits his punch with Zamasu or Black, notes something similar but different. So I believe there are 3 Zamasus with 3 different wishes: inmortal body, most powerfull (or potential) body and in the next chapter we will see the last wish.

If the present Zamasu would be the future Zamasu, then Goku would notice the same feeling, but They emphasize that are different, so is from another timeline. Besides would be a paradox, in dragon ball there are no time paradox, there are alternatives timelines cause the time travels.

I can see both sides. You could easily argue that yes the rules state only Kaioshin are supposed to use time rings. However does Black really seem like the type who cares about rules at all? He does wear a Potara but so did Vegeta/Goku and they are obviously not Kaioshin either. Also in the opening credits Black does take the Beerus pose while shooting ki blasts.

On the other hand it really hasn't been hinted at or shown in any way that he is a God of Destruction. It's all fan speculation and it's not really my opinion either. Especially considering he wasn't over powered until fighting Goku and to a lesser extent Trunks before he went back in time.

[HeroR]

Zamasu and Black have an earring in the same place, so they use to go to the future, maybe Zamasu needs a partner for travel through time.

I doubt Black could be a Hakaishin, only Kaioh Shins are allowed to use the ring of time and also has a pothala, so Black must be a Kaioh Shin.

Creation is also difficult to believe, because his words: that body doesn't belong to him.

Possesion of mirai Goku could be possible, but...
-He has Zamasu similar ki.
-Mirai Goku was very weak -but could train in the other world-,
-He has to learn movements and techniques fighting Goku.

Still I see this theory more coherent.

But I have noticed when Goku hits his punch with Zamasu or Black, notes something similar but different. So I believe there are 3 Zamasus with 3 different wishes: inmortal body, most powerfull (or potential) body and in the next chapter we will see the last wish.

If the present Zamasu would be the future Zamasu, then Goku would notice the same feeling, but They emphasize that are different, so is from another timeline. Besides would be a paradox, in dragon ball there are no time paradox, there are alternatives timelines cause the time travels.

I can see both sides. You could easily argue that yes the rules state only Kaioshin are supposed to use time rings. However does Black really seem like the type who cares about rules at all? He does wear a Potara but so did Vegeta/Goku and they are obviously not Kaioshin either. Also in the opening credits Black does take the Beerus pose while shooting ki blasts.

On the other hand it really hasn't been hinted at or shown in any way that he is a God of Destruction. It's all fan speculation and it's not really my opinion either. Especially considering he wasn't over powered until fighting Goku and to a lesser extent Trunks before he went back in time.

Black was overpowered. Trunks said that he was at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and this is Goku whose base form no sells Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. He may have been weaker than Beerus, but he certainly was overpowered. Remember, Gowasu also said that Super Saiyan 2 Goku had power that rivaled the God of Destruction.

[Oracle]

I'm thinking that since Black is wearing the time ring and a potara, and of course he knows how to use them, and he is impliying that he is a god...Black must be Gowasu + Goku's body.
May sound crazy and very obvious that Zamasu is going to kill his master but he is the only one apart from him, at least in their universe, that has that kind of information.
I'm going with that but the hakaishin theory sounds pretty good too.

[Kakarotto92]

My only problem with the Hakaishin theory is, how would have Black landed the job? Aren't the Hakaishin supposed to be appointed by Zeno or a Whis-like creature? Plus, shouldn't he also have an attendant like Whis and Vados?

Unless Kaioshins are also allowed to appoint their Universe's Hakaishin, in which case then Kaioshin Zamasu would have no problem in appointing Black, but I find this very unlikely.

[vilker]

Okay, I understand that only Kaiohshins CAN travel through time, anyway if Black stole a ring of time without permission anyone cares? Zamasu give his ring? why? where is his assitant? Why has the Goku's body? Why Zamasu similar ki and attacks? He was choosen by Zeno?
Black being god of destruction doesn't clarify anything. And Hakaishin destroy planets, not only humans, and don't have ideas like utopic zamasu world.

[Nejishiki]

Well, maybe Goku Black is Zamasu's attendant. We don't know the process for selecting them, I don't think. Assuming he's a proper Kaioshin, that might be why they're comrades. There's nothing like choosing your own partner.

[DBZ Macky]

My only problem with the Hakaishin theory is, how would have Black landed the job? Aren't the Hakaishin supposed to be appointed by Zeno or a Whis-like creature? Plus, shouldn't he also have an attendant like Whis and Vados?

Unless Kaioshins are also allowed to appoint their Universe's Hakaishin, in which case then Kaioshin Zamasu would have no problem in appointing Black, but I find this very unlikely.

Okay, this might sound far fetched but Zamasu might have somehow killed Zeno. I feel that Goku will press his "Insta-Win Button" only for it to get no response except for Black laughing and telling him that Zeno's dead.
Besides, the higher gods don't give a shit about morals anyways so they could just appoint Black as the Hakaishin since he asked nicely
I don't think that Gowasu is using reverse psychology but damn, wouldn't that be one heck of a plot twist.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Zamasu and Black have an earring in the same place, so they use to go to the future, maybe Zamasu needs a partner for travel through time.

I doubt Black could be a Hakaishin, only Kaioh Shins are allowed to use the ring of time and also has a pothala, so Black must be a Kaioh Shin.

Creation is also difficult to believe, because his words: that body doesn't belong to him.

Possesion of mirai Goku could be possible, but...
-He has Zamasu similar ki.
-Mirai Goku was very weak -but could train in the other world-,
-He has to learn movements and techniques fighting Goku.

Still I see this theory more coherent.

But I have noticed when Goku hits his punch with Zamasu or Black, notes something similar but different. So I believe there are 3 Zamasus with 3 different wishes: inmortal body, most powerfull (or potential) body and in the next chapter we will see the last wish.

If the present Zamasu would be the future Zamasu, then Goku would notice the same feeling, but They emphasize that are different, so is from another timeline. Besides would be a paradox, in dragon ball there are no time paradox, there are alternatives timelines cause the time travels.

I can see both sides. You could easily argue that yes the rules state only Kaioshin are supposed to use time rings. However does Black really seem like the type who cares about rules at all? He does wear a Potara but so did Vegeta/Goku and they are obviously not Kaioshin either. Also in the opening credits Black does take the Beerus pose while shooting ki blasts.

On the other hand it really hasn't been hinted at or shown in any way that he is a God of Destruction. It's all fan speculation and it's not really my opinion either. Especially considering he wasn't over powered until fighting Goku and to a lesser extent Trunks before he went back in time.

Black was overpowered. Trunks said that he was at least as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and this is Goku whose base form no sells Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. He may have been weaker than Beerus, but he certainly was overpowered. Remember, Gowasu also said that Super Saiyan 2 Goku had power that rivaled the God of Destruction.

Gowasu wasn't necessarily right. We actually know it isn't true because Goku is still much weaker than Beerus even as a SSB. Gowasu has probably never met Beerus or felt his full Ki. He most likely just assumed based on how strong Goku is.

Also I dont consider being as strong or slightly stronger than SSJ3 to be overpowered...because it isnt even the highest form Goku can reach. I agree its REALLY powerful but I mean over powered in relation to other characters.

Remember Trunks also said Black got better ever time they fought. We can assume from this that Black didn't start off as powerful as he is now. I think the only way he is a Hakaishin is if Zamasu gave him the unofficial title in that timeline somehow.

[HeroR]

Gowasu wasn't necessarily right. We actually know it isn't true because Goku is still much weaker than Beerus even as a SSB. Gowasu has probably never met Beerus or felt his full Ki. He most likely just assumed based on how strong Goku is.

Also I dont consider being as strong or slightly stronger than SSJ3 to be overpowered...because it isnt even the highest form Goku can reach. I agree its REALLY powerful but I mean over powered in relation to other characters.

Remember Trunks also said Black got better ever time they fought. We can assume from this that Black didn't start off as powerful as he is now. I think the only way he is a Hakaishin is if Zamasu gave him the unofficial title in that timeline somehow.

We know Goku isn't as strong as Beerus, but Gawasu still said that his power rivals that of the God of Destruction. He never specifically mentioned Beerus. Gawasu also clearly met Beerus before since he knew what Beerus looked like and Beerus knew who Zamasu was how he was being trained as a Supreme Kai.

It is overpowered in context. Goku's base form is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, who was once considered the strongest being in the universe and was an even match with Super Buu. Goku's Super Saiyan 2 is over 100x Gotenks' power. Keep in mind, Buu wiped out the Supreme Kais of his universe.

We saw Trunks first meeting Black in a flashback. Black effortlessly beat Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. He has gotten stronger, but Trunks was never a match for him.

We are assuming that all Gods of Destruction are Beerus' strength. Given that the Kais are not one strength, why would the Gods of Destruction be? I mean, the weakest Supreme Kai is Perfect Cell's level, while the strongest was on par with Kid Buu. That is a huge power different different.

[Anime Kitten]

How do we know Goku isn't stronger than Beerus though? For all we know, "I don't have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis" could be a lie, or maybe Mr. Toriyama changed his mind by now.

[HeroR]

How do we know Goku isn't stronger than Beerus though? For all we know, "I don't have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis" could be a lie, or maybe Mr. Toriyama changed his mind by now.

Until Toriyama says it's a lie, Goku is weaker than Beerus. The anime made that clear when Beerus dared Goku to stop Champa from killing his team, and the manga outright says that Goku is far weaker than Beerus.

[Anime Kitten]

Until Toriyama says it's a lie, Goku is weaker than Beerus. The anime made that clear when Beerus dared Goku to stop Champa from killing his team, and the manga outright says that Goku is far weaker than Beerus.

Then his power definitely has been retconned. There's no way that he's training since all he ever does is lay around and eat food.

But back on-topic...

[Blackstripe]

I think it's pretty clear now that Zamasu did in fact create Black in some way. Gokuu and Whis even speculated on it. While it's not clear if it was with the Super Dragon Balls or not, I think the series has shown that Zamasu made Black through some method that gave them a similar Ki.

[Ki Breaker]

Similiar ki to zamasu, body of goku....

If Ki is spirit energy, or life energy..
Zamasu's spirit possessing some version of goku is the most satisfying option..

If ki is related to body well zamasu made wish to be in goku's body, which dosen't make sense as he said pointing to his own green body that "this is the body a God deserves"...

[HeroR]

I think it's pretty clear now that Zamasu did in fact create Black in some way. Gokuu and Whis even speculated on it. While it's not clear if it was with the Super Dragon Balls or not, I think the series has shown that Zamasu made Black through some method that gave them a similar Ki.

Black wouldn't say stuff, 'this body' if he was a creation.

[DragonBallLove]

My bet: Black is Mirai Zamas in Mirai Goku's dead body. The other Zamas is a future Zamas of the main timeline.