"Future" Trunks Arc Timeline & Paradox Discussion Thread

[Cetra]

YES, YES, YES, UGHHH!
No bootstrap paradoxes/casual loop/stupid time travel logic.
Alternate timelines just like in the Cell Arc and Trunks unwittingly creating the main timeline now just as it fucking should be!

No it doesn’t remove the timeloop paradox at all.

That is not what the picture says. Speedster is right. And people should really reconsider what a bootstrap paradox is because it uses a closed cycle where the only complaint of it being "illogical" is rendered void through the fact that it has no beginning and therefore what seems illogical does not even exist. A bootstrap paradox is way easier to understand and better (well, the latter one is pretty subjective) than timelines. And here we even have both.

"Whatever happened, happened."

[Will]

Herms's translation:

[Terra-jin]

If that image is official, it seems they're really going for the broken causal loop theory. Too bad, I would have preferred a proper timeline explanation, which I find much more logical and elegant. I wonder how the manga's gonna handle it.

[dbgtFO]

Aww damnit and I was just preparing a giant party to celebrate!
Meh.

[ekrolo2]

I still want to know why (Black) Zamasu bothers going after Goku. In the series proper, Goku fights Zamasu and gets his interest in Goku from there while the manga has Zamasu hear about Goku's exploits against Boo and thus, further research him.

In (Black) Zamasu's original timeline, what exactly makes Goku even want to meet Zamasu if Trunks never started to whole "Who is Black?" investigation? That's what I want to know cause right now it seems like Goku fights him just because or Zamasu requests to meet Goku just because.

[Cetra]

In (Black) Zamasu's original timeline, what exactly makes Goku even want to meet Zamasu if Trunks never started to whole "Who is Black?" investigation? That's what I want to know cause right now it seems like Goku fights him just because or Zamasu requests to meet Goku just because.

There is no "Black original timeline". Just as it was stated already. That timeline did not actually exist before "ours". It was all one timeline that was split through Beerus interfering.

Not to say Toyble does the same of course.

[ekrolo2]

In (Black) Zamasu's original timeline, what exactly makes Goku even want to meet Zamasu if Trunks never started to whole "Who is Black?" investigation? That's what I want to know cause right now it seems like Goku fights him just because or Zamasu requests to meet Goku just because.

There is no "Black original timeline". Just as it was stated already. That timeline did not actually exist before "ours". It was all one timeline that was split through Beerus interfering.

That's not my point, I want to know what the hell prompts Zamasu to target Goku in his version of events. Without Future Trunks, Goku would never investigate Black and Zamasu wouldn't ever hear about him, yet, the anime has them fight & meet because reasons. What happens in Black Zamasu's history for him to specifically target Goku?

And before you tell me "Well Zamasu chose not to kill Gowasu so Beerus doesn't murder him!" okay, why not? What, did he suddenly get a last spurt of conscience at that moment then just decide "Nah, I'ma kill him anyway!" later on? Cause that's not how it seems like it happened at all.

Also, the show uses Black's Time Ring as the excuse for why Beerus murdering him earlier on didn't erase him from history, if Black was just from a split timeline, what is even the point of making this a point to bring up?

[Terra-jin]

@Cetra:

Trunks and Black appearing in the main timeline lead to Zamasu getting killed. Black's history has a different outcome, which means that - if we assume a deterministic flow of events - the circumstances must've been different. It cannot be exactly the same as the main timeline, because then we'd have two histories where Zamasu was killed by Beerus.

It boils down to a simple question: what stopped Beerus from killing Zamasu in Black's history?

[Nejishiki]

The heart of the matter is that Goku and Zamasu met on their own. I don't think there's a grand motive that requires dramatization. It would be covered if it was more than what it is now. Goku Black meddling with Future Trunks' era is an event that sparks their meeting in our perspective. "Destiny is destiny", as Final Fantasy characters would say.

[Cetra]

That's not my point, I want to know what the hell prompts Zamasu to target Goku in his version of events. Without Future Trunks, Goku would never investigate Black and Zamasu wouldn't ever hear about him, yet, the anime has them fight & meet because reasons. What happens in Black Zamasu's history for him to specifically target Goku?

I think you misunderstand me. There was no "without Future Trunks". Future Trunks always guaranteed that the guy that became Black would become Black because Trunks came back, Goku visited Zamas (the one that was supposed to become Black) and the grudge started to grow in Zamas. Then when Beerus tried to interfere the timeline split. Because they introduced that weird "Beerus can affect time" thing they guaranteed Black's existence to continue through the Ring of Time.

Also, the show uses Black's Time Ring as the excuse for why Beerus murdering him earlier on didn't erase him from history, if Black was just from a split timeline, what is even the point of making this a point to bring up?

It is basically an uneccessary tool. It works this way by giving him another paradoxical safety but they could have made an even easier bootstrap paradox where that ring was not needed at all, to be honest with you.

@Cetra:

Trunks and Black appearing in the main timeline lead to Zamasu getting killed. Black's history has a different outcome, which means that - if we assume a deterministic flow of events - the circumstances must've been different. It cannot be exactly the same as the main timeline, because then we'd have two histories where Zamasu was killed by Beerus.

It boils down to a simple question: what stopped Beerus from killing Zamasu in Black's history?

Yes, of course. That is why I mentioned Beerus. The mere fact that Black in the future had a ring already made the time split up when Beerus did his judgement. At least that is the only reason that we get from the anime as more than "because of Beerus" is not to be concluded from that chart. They introduced the ring to add one paradoxical element that would have priority over Beerus' power which was said to affect time (which in an on itself is also another weird thing).

[Terra-jin]

Yes, of course. That is why I mentioned Beerus. The mere fact that Black had a ring already made the time split up. At least that is the only reason that we get from the anime as more than "because of Beerus" is not to be concluded from that chart. They introduced the ring to add one paradoxical element that would have priority over Beerus' power which was said to affect time (which in an on itself is also another weird thing).

Well, my main gripe with it is that those elements (Beerus' special powers regarding time travelers, the time ring protecting Black) make the mechanics of time travel internally contradictory. If official sources say so, however, who am I to disagree, but I'd've preferred another explanation.

[ekrolo2]

I think you misunderstand me. There was no "without Future Trunks". Future Trunks always guaranteed that the guy that became Black would become Black because Trunks came back, Goku visited Zamas (the one that was supposed to become Black) and the grudge started to grow in Zamas. Then when Beerus tried to interfere the timeline split. Because they introduced that weird "Beerus can affect time" thing they guaranteed Black's existence to continue through the Ring of Time.

Okay, if a God killing another God effects the timeline, why aren't Kai's and Gods of Destruction dying everywhere? They're not wearing Time Rings or whatever to protect them and both Black & Future Zamasu admitted to killing all the other Gods. Does it only count because Beerus did it? The Daisuki subs don't say that just that Gods killing one another would affect all timelines.

[Cetra]

Yes, of course. That is why I mentioned Beerus. The mere fact that Black had a ring already made the time split up. At least that is the only reason that we get from the anime as more than "because of Beerus" is not to be concluded from that chart. They introduced the ring to add one paradoxical element that would have priority over Beerus' power which was said to affect time (which in an on itself is also another weird thing).

Well, my main gripe with it is that those elements (Beerus' special powers regarding time travelers, the time ring protecting Black) make the mechanics of time travel internally contradictory. If official sources say so, however, who am I to disagree, but I'd've preferred another explanation.

I fully agree that it could have been made a bit different. Especially the Ring of Time was not necessary for a Bootstrap. But to be honest with you, while there are some problems in all sorts of time concepts I can still see what they wanted to go with.

Okay, if a God killing another God effects the timeline, why aren't Kai's and Gods of Destruction dying everywhere? They're not wearing Time Rings or whatever to protect them and both Black & Future Zamasu admitted to killing all the other Gods. Does it only count because Beerus did it? The Daisuki subs don't say that just that Gods killing one another would affect all timelines.

Believe me, I have wondered about such stuff as well. I don't know what they thought when they wrote it but from what I remember Beerus just was like "your logic does not work with us, my power works different" - until he realized something went wrong when he was told Black is alive. This event not being a lie from Beerus is essential though because it explains why Zamas survived. The Ring was more powerful than Beerus and having priority over his logic, it instead split time.

I would not have needed the part but they wanted to make it that way. If Beerus was not lying but just taking crap, then yes, the ring was not necessary and it could have been made different.

There could have been a lot different.

[ekrolo2]

Believe me, I have wondered about such stuff as well. I don't know what they thought when they wrote it but from what I remember Beerus just was like "your logic does not work with us, my power works different" - until he realized something went wrong when he was told Black is alive. This event not being a lie from Beerus is essential though because it explains why Zamas survived. The Ring was more powerful than Beerus and having priority over his logic, it instead split time.

I would not have needed the part but they wanted to make it that way.

It still doesn't make any sense though. The Time Ring preserving Zamasu is okay, whatever, but Black and Future Zamasu are still murdering Gods all across the future timeline and none of it effects anything at all. Beerus being save from it makes sense as Supreme Kai was killed by Dabra & Babidi, not Gods, but what about the others? Why isn't Champa dead or any of the other Gods of Destruction & Kai's from across the multiverse? They don't have Time Rings to protect them.

My stupid mortal logic might sound stupid, but Beerus' God logic also doesn't make any sense at all.

[Cetra]

Believe me, I have wondered about such stuff as well. I don't know what they thought when they wrote it but from what I remember Beerus just was like "your logic does not work with us, my power works different" - until he realized something went wrong when he was told Black is alive. This event not being a lie from Beerus is essential though because it explains why Zamas survived. The Ring was more powerful than Beerus and having priority over his logic, it instead split time.

I would not have needed the part but they wanted to make it that way.

It still doesn't make any sense though. The Time Ring preserving Zamasu is okay, whatever, but Black and Future Zamasu are still murdering Gods all across the future timeline and none of it effects anything at all. Beerus being save from it makes sense as Supreme Kai was killed by Dabra & Babidi, not Gods, but what about the others? Why isn't Champa dead or any of the other Gods of Destruction & Kai's from across the multiverse? They don't have Time Rings to protect them.

My stupid mortal logic might sound stupid, but Beerus' God logic also doesn't make any sense at all.

As implied in my previous post, I do agree with that. But there is the thing that we do not really know if it did not affect futures so basically it could actually have had any influence. We just do not notice it because "our timeline" is in the past. As Beerus implied, he can do a Grandfather Paradox without it being a Grandfather Paradox. That is always a phenomenon that is about future events.

I doubt we will get answers to everything though.

[ekrolo2]

As implied in my previous post, I do agree with that. But there is the thing that we do not really know if it did not affect futures so basically it could actually have had any influence. We just do not notice it because "our timeline" is in the past.

I don't see why it wouldn't work both ways. These timelines are entirely divorced from one another so I don't see why Beerus' apparent ripple effect would only work one way and not the other. Personally, I REALLY hope this something the manga just flat out ignores or else it's going to become convoluted too.

[Cetra]

As implied in my previous post, I do agree with that. But there is the thing that we do not really know if it did not affect futures so basically it could actually have had any influence. We just do not notice it because "our timeline" is in the past.

I don't see why it wouldn't work both ways. These timelines are entirely divorced from one another so I don't see why Beerus' apparent ripple effect would only work one way and not the other. Personally, I REALLY hope this something the manga just flat out ignores or else it's going to become convoluted too.

You mean overwriting the past that lies timewise behind the murdering of gods? That would bring an entirety of new problems though. I think we already have enough.

[ekrolo2]

You mean overriding the past that lies timewise behind the murdering of gods? That would bring an entirety of new problems though. I think we already have enough.

Overriding the past?

[Cetra]

You mean overriding the past that lies timewise behind the murdering of gods? That would bring an entirety of new problems though. I think we already have enough.

Overriding the past?

Oops, typo. Sorry.

[HeroR]

Yes, of course. That is why I mentioned Beerus. The mere fact that Black had a ring already made the time split up. At least that is the only reason that we get from the anime as more than "because of Beerus" is not to be concluded from that chart. They introduced the ring to add one paradoxical element that would have priority over Beerus' power which was said to affect time (which in an on itself is also another weird thing).

Well, my main gripe with it is that those elements (Beerus' special powers regarding time travelers, the time ring protecting Black) make the mechanics of time travel internally contradictory. If official sources say so, however, who am I to disagree, but I'd've preferred another explanation.

That is because Black and Future Zamasu are murdering the future gods. Killing them wouldn't erased their past selves. It works for Beerus because he kills Zamasu before he could become Black, since Black is the future of Present Zamasu.

I fully agree that it could have been made a bit different. Especially the Ring of Time was not necessary for a Bootstrap. But to be honest with you, while there are some problems in all sorts of time concepts I can still see what they wanted to go with.

Okay, if a God killing another God effects the timeline, why aren't Kai's and Gods of Destruction dying everywhere? They're not wearing Time Rings or whatever to protect them and both Black & Future Zamasu admitted to killing all the other Gods. Does it only count because Beerus did it? The Daisuki subs don't say that just that Gods killing one another would affect all timelines.

Believe me, I have wondered about such stuff as well. I don't know what they thought when they wrote it but from what I remember Beerus just was like "your logic does not work with us, my power works different" - until he realized something went wrong when he was told Black is alive. This event not being a lie from Beerus is essential though because it explains why Zamas survived. The Ring was more powerful than Beerus and having priority over his logic, it instead split time.

I would not have needed the part but they wanted to make it that way. If Beerus was not lying but just taking crap, then yes, the ring was not necessary and it could have been made different.

There could have been a lot different.