Is Akira Toriyama trying to make us hate Goku?

[TheMikado]

^ it were an issue of pure genetics then Vegeta shouldn't be redeemable. It's frustrating to watch Goku and Vegeta go in the opposite directions personality wise. Remember when we use to complain about how OOC Vegeta was? Now we've got the same issue with Goku. I'm wondering if all this is on purpose.

[Ki Breaker]

^ it were an issue of pure genetics then Vegeta shouldn't be redeemable. It's frustrating to watch Goku and Vegeta go in the opposite directions personality wise. Remember when we use to complain about how OOC Vegeta was? Now we've got the same issue with Goku. I'm wondering if all this is on purpose.

Yeah, they are making them switch personalities..
Now that I think about it this could be on purpose too, I don't think if they can nail the personalities why will they decide to nail it on the opposite guy..

But then again the manga goku and Vegeta feels like the same person we know, there is a big chance this is an execution issue rather than a character fault

[SansrivaaL]

Thats what got me thinking, I wonder how Toyo will handle this, his Goku is... well not like his anime counterpart, his version is more mature and cool/calm, while the anime is a dumbass old man thats high on drugs or whatever he's in

[HeroR]

Like I said in another thread, this is the super version which is causing this problem.. Just wait and see the manga version roll in and we should see a perfect execution of this situation with much better wording even if the feelings are the same..

The dub should fix whatever issues there are with wording if necessary too

You mean like the infamous kissing scene? And having the dub changed something because you don't like seems go against the spirit of 'sticking the original script' mindset around here.

Also, it's weird that fans are talking about Vegeta being more compassionate about something he doesn't even know about yet, all because he chose to stay by his pregnant wife, who he still haven't done anything for.

[Ki Breaker]

Like I said in another thread, this is the super version which is causing this problem.. Just wait and see the manga version roll in and we should see a perfect execution of this situation with much better wording even if the feelings are the same..

The dub should fix whatever issues there are with wording if necessary too

You mean like the infamous kissing scene? And having the dub changed something because you don't like seems go against the spirit of 'sticking the original script' mindset around here.

Nope, no kissing scene mentioned in my post.. I am actually totally fine with Goku's kissing scene, why change what the author indented..
But seems you didn't catch my intent here,
There are many ways to say a sentence..

Take a situation where toriyama intended goku to not know how to flush
Super will make goku say this
"I don't understaaaaaand what that stick is for! I am getting excited, maybe it's super strong! *Proceeds to pull it right off the hinge* "

The manga would go something like this
"What's this little thing right here *press* hey it's cleans up! That's neat"

Stick to the original script but not some wordings, could be achieved by dubbing him and changing the wording to better suit a grown man talking even when meaning remains intact

[TysonWine]

Oh come now. Goku enjoys fighting, but not wiping out civilizations.

Episode 78 set up the precedent that Goku doesn't care about causing the death of zillions as long as he can get a good fight out of it, which is what Raditz promised.

But hey, who am I to interrupt the sociopath Goku narrative.

This is exactly how a sociopath would react.

As others have pointed out, this scene could've been handled better. In fact, it was my least favorite part of the episode. Through all of Goku's naivety and goofyness, this scene gave him the opportunity to take responsibility, redeem himself, and have a good father son moment.

Directly after the quoted exchange, this dialogue occurs...

Gohan: "If something happens, Dad, you'll do something about it, right?"
Goku: "I won't know unless it comes to that"
Gohan: "That's irresponsible"

How this scene should've went...

Gohan: "If something happens, Dad, you'll do something about it, right?"
Goku (Serious Tone): "If it comes to that, I promise to make things right"
(Gohan looks unsure)
Goku (Serious Tone): "I won't let anything happen, son. You have my word"
(Goku puts hand on Gohan's shoulder)
Goku (Still Serious): "All I'm asking is that you show up. I'll win the tournament myself If I have to."
Gohan (reassured): "Right Dad, you always find a way."
(As Gohan leaves to get ready, Goku sees Pan fly into Videl's arms)
Goku clinches fist: "This one's on me. I must win at all costs."

Not the best script in the world, but you all get the point. What Goku needs is a scene like that, and that was the perfect opportunity for him to have one. Gohan was the first team member to learn about the rules and through his concern, Goku could've have shown his own. As much as Goku is to blame for the tournament's creation, I can fully get behind him if his primary motivation becomes his responsibility to his friends and family, rather than fighting strong opponents.

Like when Vegeta told Black that he wasn't fighting him because he likes to fight, but for the sake of Trunk's future. Black responded that this type of thinking was un-saiyan like. Massive growth was shown in Vegeta's character there. He now knows what's more important.

The problem with Goku, is that he was never a villain. He should already know this lesson. I'm sure we'll get to see training scenes before the main tournament, and I REALLY hope Goku's primary motivation isn't to fight strong fighters. What I hope it is and what it should be, is to protect his universe at all costs. Enjoying himself is a fortunate bonus. Imagine the poetic justice of Goku NOT enjoying the tournament because of the stakes being so high and the blame that falls at his feet. A mental struggle about how to save the other universes wouldn't hurt either.

[HeroR]

Nope, no kissing scene mentioned in my post.. I am actually totally fine with Goku's kissing scene, why change what the author indented..
But seems you didn't catch my intent here,
There are many ways to say a sentence..

Take a situation where toriyama intended goku to not know how to flush
Super will make goku say this
"I don't understaaaaaand what that stick is for! I am getting excited, maybe it's super strong! *Proceeds to pull it right off the hinge* "

The manga would go something like this
"What's this little thing right here *press* hey it's cleans up! That's neat"

Stick to the original script but not some wordings, could be achieved by dubbing him and changing the wording to better suit a grown man talking even when meaning remains intact

That is kind of an assumption of what you think the manga will do. Not the actual reality. Using the kissing scene, the anime makes it look like Goku misunderstood what Vegeta was talking about and it is unclear if he kiss Chi-Chi. In the manga, not only did it make it clear he never kissed his wife, he seemed almost disgusted at the idea of it, hence the, 'of course not!'.

And you kind of kill your point when you over-exaggerated Super's Goku since Goku has shown to be quite smart in many situations, but for some reason the moment he says or does something stupid, that is all people remembers. Episode 76 for example.

As others have pointed out, this scene could've been handled better. In fact, it was my least favorite part of the episode. Through all of Goku's naivety and goofyness, this scene gave him the opportunity to take responsibility, redeem himself, and have a good father son moment.

Directly after the quoted exchange, this dialogue occurs...

Gohan: "If something happens, Dad, you'll do something about it, right?"
Goku: "I won't know unless it comes to that"
Gohan: "That's irresponsible"

How this scene should've went...

Gohan: "If something happens, Dad, you'll do something about it, right?"
Goku (Serious Tone): "If it comes to that, I promise to make things right"
(Gohan looks unsure)
Goku (Serious Tone): "I won't let anything happen, son. You have my word"
(Goku puts hand on Gohan's shoulder)
Goku (Still Serious): "All I'm asking is that you show up. I'll win the tournament myself If I have to."
Gohan (reassured): "Right Dad, you always find a way."
(As Gohan leaves to get ready, Goku sees Pan fly into Videl's arms)
Goku clinches fist: "This one's on me. I must win at all costs."

Not the best script in the world, but you all get the point. What Goku needs is a scene like that, and that was the perfect opportunity for him to have one. Gohan was the first team member to learn about the rules and through his concern, Goku could've have shown his own. As much as Goku is to blame for the tournament's creation, I can fully get behind him if his primary motivation becomes his responsibility to his friends and family, rather than fighting strong opponents.

Like when Vegeta told Black that he wasn't fighting him because he likes to fight, but for the sake of Trunk's future. Black responded that this type of thinking was un-saiyan like. Massive growth was shown in Vegeta's character there. He now knows what's more important.

The problem with Goku, is that he was never a villain. He should already know this lesson. I'm sure we'll get to see training scenes before the main tournament, and I REALLY hope Goku's primary motivation isn't to fight strong fighters. What I hope it is and what it should be, is to protect his universe at all costs. Enjoying himself is a fortunate bonus. Imagine the poetic justice of Goku NOT enjoying the tournament because of the stakes being so high and the blame that falls at his feet. A mental struggle about how to save the other universes wouldn't hurt either.

This reads like something original dub Goku would say. Japanese Goku, even in Z, almost never makes grand statements like this. He keeps things simple, so Goku being blunt and saying, 'I won't know unless it comes to that' is in character for him. He doesn't know if he can fix the situation and he's not going to make a promise that he can't keep. Just like during the Cell Saga when he was perfectly blunt about his chances of winning. He also told Piccolo when he asked if he could beat the androids that he had no clue since he hasn't seen them.

[Ki Breaker]

That is kind of an assumption of what you think the manga will do. Not the actual reality. Using the kissing scene, the anime makes it look like Goku misunderstood what Vegeta was talking about and it is unclear if he kiss Chi-Chi. In the manga, not only did it make it clear he never kissed his wife, he seemed almost disgusted at the idea of it, hence the, 'of course not!'.

And you kind of kill your point when you over-exaggerated Super's Goku since Goku has shown to be quite smart in many situations, but for some reason the moment he says or does something stupid, that is all people remembers. Episode 76 for example.

How about we take the given example as an example and not a gospel of truth?

If I need to break down the example's intent as well, I will do it, Super goku is idiotic outside of fighting, manga version isn't..

Wording matters.. you can't go to an interview and say "sup. BITCH" even if you meant hello..
Disclaimer- not to take this example literally as well, only the intended meaning is to be taken

[HeroR]

How about we take the given example as an example and not a gospel of truth?

If I need to break down the example's intent as well, I will do it, Super goku is idiotic outside of fighting, manga version isn't..

Wording matters.. you can't go to an interview and say "sup. BITCH" even if you meant hello..
Disclaimer- not to take this example literally as well, only the intended meaning is to be taken

He is such an idiot that he has been shown working and being part of society far more than manga Super Goku, or even original manga Goku. This is what I mean by being selective.

[HybridSaiyan]

Got into Dragon Ball during my childhood. Massive Goku fan 15+ years, inspired me to bodybuild, taught me to stay strong and stand up to bullies. Super starts, my love for Goku is decreasing with every episode. Wtf, surely I aint the only one to be feeling this way?

[Ki Breaker]

He is such an idiot that he has been shown working and being part of society far more than manga Super Goku. This is what I mean by being selective.

The ridiculous Pacing the manga has it's no surprise goku isn't shown to be working on farm all the time, there simply isn't enough space or time

[HeroR]

The ridiculous Pacing the manga has it's no surprise goku isn't shown to be working on farm all the time, there simply isn't enough space or time

Pacing or saying that the manga has no time doesn't changed that anime Super Goku has shown himself to be smart outside of battle, while you just said that Super Goku is an idiot in everything not related to fight. And the manga can easily show slides of Goku working in one panel or even just have a throw away line about it, much like it did with Vegeta and Future Trunks. Going by the manga, once Goku got the money from Mr. Satan, he never worked again and just trains all the time. So he's even more fight obsessed than anime Super Goku since we have seen him do other things besides train.

[Ki Breaker]

The ridiculous Pacing the manga has it's no surprise goku isn't shown to be working on farm all the time, there simply isn't enough space or time

Pacing or saying that the manga has no time doesn't changed that anime Super Goku has shown himself to be smart outside of battle, while you just said that Super Goku is an idiot in everything not related to fight. And the manga can easily show slides of Goku working in one panel or even just have a throw away line about it, much like it did with Vegeta and Future Trunks. Going by the manga, once Goku got the money from Mr. Satan, he never worked again and just trains all the time. So he's even more fight obsessed than anime Super Goku since we have seen him do other things besides train.

Goku destroying working a farm dosen't make him smart, it makes ChiChi a nagging wife..

The main point of my post was, the dub changing the lines he says, and working on a farm comes under action not a dub

[HeroR]

Goku destroying working a farm dosen't make him smart, it makes ChiChi a nagging wife..

The main point of my post was, the dub changing the lines he says, and working on a farm comes under action not a dub

Despite destroying his farm now and then, he still grows a giant, healthy crop that is popular and Beerus has even praised. If he was as dumb as you claim, he wouldn't be able to do that. Do you know how hard it is to farm in real life? It isn't something some idiot can do on their free time.

And Goku has shown that he can and will disobey Chi-Chi if he really wants something, him leaving with Whis in Resurrection 'F'. He even worked a deal with Chi-Chi where he trains while farming, so they both win.

The dub didn't change a line. It added a line about Goku training to protect his family in Episode 1.

Also, most of your post was about the manga 'fixing' Goku based on how you feel Manga Super Goku is better and smarter, while downplaying Anime Super Goku as dumb outside of fighting despite me pointing that that Goku in the anime is shown to be more sociable and able to function in society just fine to the point that he runs a successful farm. Something that anyone who grew up around a farmer can tell you isn't easy.

[Ki Breaker]

Goku destroying working a farm dosen't make him smart, it makes ChiChi a nagging wife..

Despite destroying his farm now and then, he still grows a healthy crop that is popular and Beerus has even praised. If he was as dumb as you keep claiming, he wouldn't be able to do that. Do you know how hard it is to farm in real life? It isn't something some idiot can do on their free time.

And Goku has shown that he can and will disobey Chi-Chi if he really wants something, him leaving with Whis in Resurrection 'F'. He even worked a deal with Chi-Chi where he trains while farming, so they both win.

The main point of my post was, the dub changing the lines he says, and working on a farm comes under action not a dub

[HeroR]

Goku destroying working a farm dosen't make him smart, it makes ChiChi a nagging wife..

Despite destroying his farm now and then, he still grows a healthy crop that is popular and Beerus has even praised. If he was as dumb as you keep claiming, he wouldn't be able to do that. Do you know how hard it is to farm in real life? It isn't something some idiot can do on their free time.

And Goku has shown that he can and will disobey Chi-Chi if he really wants something, him leaving with Whis in Resurrection 'F'. He even worked a deal with Chi-Chi where he trains while farming, so they both win.

The main point of my post was, the dub changing the lines he says, and working on a farm comes under action not a dub

Read my edit.

[Ki Breaker]

Dosen't change the fact super Goku's lines are as irritating and stupid as it gets sometimes even in fighting..
Which the dub should change

[HeroR]

Dosen't change the fact super Goku's lines are as irritating and stupid as it gets sometimes even in fighting..
Which I want the dub to change

The dub shouldn't change lines from the original source just because you don't personally like them. If the lines are supposed to be 'irritating and stupid' then that is how it should be. Not changed because of personal preference.

[Ki Breaker]

Dosen't change the fact super Goku's lines are as irritating and stupid as it gets sometimes even in fighting..
Which I want the dub to change

The dub shouldn't change lines from the original source just because you don't personally like them. If the lines are supposed to be 'irritating and stupid' then that is how it should be. Not changed because of personal preference.

The lines aren't supposed to be stupid, if they were intended by the author to be that, the manga version would be just that, which it's not..

[HeroR]

The lines aren't supposed to be stupid, if they were intended by the author to be that, the manga version would be just that, which it's not..

Do you have Toriyama's script that tells you the intent? Toei and the manga are two different things with most of the dialog not even being the same. They follows the same bare bone outline that you haven't seen, so you don't even know if Toriyama wrote dialog.