Would the Dragon Ball series be more respected if Z didn't exist?

[ABED]

I like to read/watch stories from the beginning. DBZ is not the beginning.

I do think it's important to watch something from the beginning but if for whatever reason someone doesn't then they should go back and watch what they missed. you and me experienced the story differently (you started from the beginning while I started from the middle then went back to the beginning) but we both know how everything came together from start to finish and that's to me more improtant then where someone started.

If someone doesn't like DB then that's fine, likeing at least one part of the story is better than nothing but I do think anyone who's started with Z needs to go back and watch the original just once to know how everything started and evolved over time.

Ironically I didn't start from the beginning. I began with DBZ just like most people on this forum because that's what was out in 97. And for me, the importance of watching DB is not to see how things got to where they did in Z, it's to experience the whole story.

[sintzu]

You judge a book by its cover.

I know.

Sintzu isn't wrong that kids make pre-judgments based on how something looks.

I'm in my 20's and I still do that and have probably missed out on a lot of good products because of it. it shows that 1st impressions are everything for some people. DB is my favorite franchise after Batman and if I saw the wrong image then I might not have ever found out about that.

Ironically I didn't start from the beginning. I began with DBZ just like most people on this forum because that's what was out in 97.

I'm surprised, the way you defend DB always gave me the idea that you started with it. I like it as well but you give the impression that you were there from the beginning.

[ABED]

Ironically I didn't start from the beginning. I began with DBZ just like most people on this forum because that's what was out in 97.

I'm surprised, the way you defend DB always gave me the idea that you started with it. I like it as well but you give the impression that you were there from the beginning.

I get that, but I was born in 85, so I didn't see a great number of my favorite shows starting from the beginning. I don't think I saw the first episode of Friends until 2004 when I bought the first season on DVD. There are a number of shows that start off weak but grow into something great. I would still suggest watching shows from the beginning.

[sintzu]

I get that, but I was born in 85, so I didn't see a great number of my favorite shows starting from the beginning.

I'd hurry up and see what I want if I were you, at best you might have 50 or so years left before meeting grandpa Gohan.

[ABED]

I get that, but I was born in 85, so I didn't see a great number of my favorite shows starting from the beginning.

I'd hurry up and see what I want if I were you, at best you might have 50 or so years left before meeting grandpa Gohan.

Less than that, I have a whole Benjamin Button thing going on.

[sintzu]

Less than that, I have a whole Benjamin Button thing going on.

Soory about that, wouldn't have made that joke if I knew you had that...(looks it up with a guilty conscience) WHAT!!!! that's real ? you have that ? how ?

[ABED]

Less than that, I have a whole Benjamin Button thing going on.

Soory about that, wouldn't have made that joke if I knew you had that...(looks it up with a guilty conscience) WHAT!!!! that's real ? you have that ? how ?

Is it real? I was bustin' balls and playing along. Damn internet! It's hard to convey tone.

Back to Dragon Ball. I think it's a shame that so many don't have a desire to go back and watch DB. Some even seem to take a perverse pleasure in not doing so.

[WittyUsername]

No one is arguing that it wasn't.

Yes, DBZ is the bigger name. Stop bringing it up. We all know it, but it's not the question before the coure. And not for a single second do I believe DB never would've found its way over here. Even obscure titles have been released here and DB wasn't obscure well before DBZ.

Stop bringing it up? I brought it up all of once before you responded to me. Also, DB was brought over to the West before Z...twice, and it flopped in both cases...

It was a general response. We get it, DBZ is more popular. That's not at issue. As for DB flopping, a bad time slot will do that to you.

Even after the series aired on Toonami in its entirety, it still never reached the popularity that Z did. I'm not saying that to spit on the series, but the truth is that many of the people who are fans of the franchise, are fans of it for characters like Vegeta and Trunks, the Super Saiyan transformations, and the high speed fights. I'm not one of those people, but plenty of the more casual viewers are indeed like that.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Then I would've just thought it was a stupid children's show and wouldn't look back again. I would've missed out on so much if that's the 1st thing I saw of DB.

Z is one of those oddities I like to think about, but its popularity is due to different reasons I see. In series, even though it is DB as a collective, the tone shift and fighting scale raised its bar so high that they seem like two different shows. Along with the fact that the way Z is written, you really don't need to watch DB to understand Z. DB answers some questions about the side characters but because most of that isn't carried over as fundamentally as it is for at most Piccolo. Especially considering how DBZ was marketed solely based on the fighting scale Z set, and portraying the "Z-fighters" like a superhero team it completely made it seem like a different show. DB and DBZ to me are like if Digimon Frontier was a sequel to Digimon adventure.

Now as for aesthetic, I might be the only one who sees this but because the DB anime is more crudely drawn and cartoony in comparison to Z that looked closer to comic book characters to western audiences, that too might have been an influence. DB itself does look like a little kid's show. I mean listen to the people that say they love DB but hate the first 25 episodes of GT (which was skipped even by funimation for being boring and irrelevant) I think that attitude is what people subconsciously have in prejudice with DB. If DB looked like Path To Power or from the start, the transition might not have been so jarring to casuals.

SJW would have ate early Dragon Ball alive nowadays (admittedly the overt sexualization of Bulma was
a bit much)

I don't think so. DB makes a lot of itself clear that the goofy things Bulma does is pretty much a cheeky gag, but it probably just wound have been censored out as if it didn't happen the context of it would have probably just been altered.

[sintzu]

Z is one of those oddities I like to think about, but its popularity is due to different reasons I see. In series, even though it is DB as a collective, the tone shift and fighting scale raised its bar so high that they seem like two different shows.

Along with the fact that the way Z is written, you really don't need to watch DB to understand Z.

Now as for aesthetic, I might be the only one who sees this but because the DB anime is more crudely drawn and cartoony in comparison to Z that looked closer to comic book characters to western audiences, that too might have been an influence.

This is how I see the whole franchise, all 4 shows form one story but at the same time they're very different from one another.

This is what I love about it, you can introduce anyone to the franchise through it then after you can show them what came before and after if you want. if they're not interested then they still got a complete experience (more or less).

DB is like that is because it was made by the people who made Dr.Slump. When Torishima got a new producer for it he said the 1st thing they needed to do was rename it to get rid of that childish image DB had. the reaosn a new producer was brought in was because the anime wasn't doing that well. I give the top workers on Z major credit for making it not only stand on its own but also be the main product of the franchise.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Would Star Wars be more respected if Empire and Jedi didn't exist? Does it even matter? They do exist, and they're a massively popular part of the franchise. Popularity is the closest thing to respect that can be easily measured, so it'll have to do, in which case, the answer is no.

I guess if you want my personal opinion, as in "Would I respect it more?", well... I don't judge based on hypotheticals if I can help it. For example, do we get video games? Merchandise? Will it effect localization? There's also the question of fan culture. If I could peak into every hypothetical universe, I'd just as soon answer, but there are too many variables otherwise.

[ABED]

Even after the series aired on Toonami in its entirety, it still never reached the popularity that Z did. I'm not saying that to spit on the series, but the truth is that many of the people who are fans of the franchise, are fans of it for characters like Vegeta and Trunks, the Super Saiyan transformations, and the high speed fights. I'm not one of those people, but plenty of the more casual viewers are indeed like that.

The high speed fights are also in DB and it was marketed almost like a prequel series.

at the same time they're very different from one another.

DB and Z aren't that different. It's all DB and DB changes over time.

DB is like that is because it was made by the people who made Dr.Slump. When Torishima got a new producer for it he said the 1st thing they needed to do was rename it to get rid of that childish image DB had. the reaosn a new producer was brought in was because the anime wasn't doing that well. I give the top workers on Z major credit for making it not only stand on its own but also be the main product of the franchise.

That's not actually what happened. Toriyama is the one who made DB. It started off as a gag manga that was influenced by Journey to the West and wasn't catching on, so Toriyama put the emphasis on action and after the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, the manga became a success that built. You keep trying to make the story out to be unsuccessful until three years after it began. Z doesn't stand on its own. That's another pet peeve. It wasn't written to be a stand alone. The only reason it can be seen without DB is because it's not a sophisticated story.

I think DB would've been less ignored if there hadn't been DBZ, but that's about it. I think the more interesting scenario is what would've happened to the series had it all been DB.

[MasenkoHA]

. Along with the fact that the way Z is written, you really don't need to watch DB to understand Z. DB answers some questions about the side characters but because most of that isn't carried over as fundamentally as it is for at most Piccolo.

Like Abed said that has more to do because the plot isn't complicated. You can start at DBZ and not be lost but it does change a few things.

We don't get the full impact of Goku and Piccolo teaming up against Raditz without Dragon Ball

The reveal of Goku as an alien is more of a premise than a plot twist since we don't have 153 episodes of assuming he's a monkey-boy hybrid but still an earthling

Tein and Chiaotzu essentially have no context they just appear. (Bulma and Krillin we at least know are Goku's friends and Roshi is his martial arts teacher because
Goku tells us this and we know Yamcha is Bulma's boyfriend.)

. DB and DBZ to me are like if Digimon Frontier was a sequel to Digimon adventure.

How? Why?

.

I don't think so. DB makes a lot of itself clear that the goofy things Bulma does is pretty much a cheeky gag,.

It's less what Bulma does and more she's a walking "teehee girls have boobies!" gag in the first thirteen.

[ABED]

Not to mention Kuririn, Chaozu, and Muten Roshi have all died once before.

[sintzu]

That's not actually what happened. Toriyama is the one who made DB. It started off as a gag manga that was influenced by Journey to the West and wasn't catching on, so Toriyama put the emphasis on action and after the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, the manga became a success that built.

You keep trying to make the story out to be unsuccessful until three years after it began.

I think the more interesting scenario is what would've happened to the series had it all been DB.

This is with the manga.

I'm talking about the anime based on what Torishima said about it and why he requested Toei to change the main people behind it.

It wouldn't be a franchise, it probably would've just died with the manga in 1995.

We don't get the full impact of Goku and Piccolo teaming up against Raditz without Dragon Ball

The reveal of Goku as an alien is more of a premise than a plot twist.

Tein and Chiaotzu essentially have no context they just appear.

What about Fairy tail ? it starts with Natsu and Gray established as rivals with a history but that doesn't take anything away from us seeing them team up for the 1st time.

It works as both. That's how Naruto's origin is handled, the story starts with us being told he's hated by everyone and why. we don't go through 150 chapters of seeing him hated for no reason only to find out the reason 3 years later.

A lot of stories have characters who just show up and they explain their connection to the hero.

[ABED]

It works as both. That's how Naruto's origin is handled, the story starts with us being told he's hated by everyone and why. we don't go through 150 chapters of seeing him hated for no reason only to find out the reason 3 years later.

Except it's not dealt with as though it's this huge shocking revelation.

A lot of stories have characters who just show up and they explain their connection to the hero.

Yes, but they are given introductions. You don't however just thow it out there that three characters were killed before the story even begins.

This is with the manga.

I'm talking about the anime based on what Torishima said about it and why he requested Toei to change the main people behind it.

It wouldn't be a franchise, it probably would've just died with the manga in 1995.

The success of the anime and the manga were comparable. The story wouldn't have become a franchise, but it wouldn't have died.

[sintzu]

Except it's not dealt with as though it's this huge shocking revelation.

The success of the anime and the manga were comparable.

It's to Naruto, he loses it when he finds out about who he really is, just like Goku did.

Even though we tried to make the Dragon Ball anime better than Dr. Slump's, the ratings still went gradually down. We then tried to figure out why that was happening, why the series wasn't doing well. One thing we discovered was that the producer for the Dragon Ball anime was the same as on Dr. Slump. As he had an image of Toriyama's manga as being something cute and funny, which meant his style of Dragon Ball became too similar to Dr. Slump. This meant he was missing the more serious tone we had developed in the Dragon Ball manga. For instance, when I saw the scene in the anime where Goku pierces Piccolo I realized I couldn't work with this producer.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarde ... 3170a825e5

Let me ask you (and anyone else who wants to take part) this, what would you think of DB if it started with the Bardock special then went on to the Saiyan arc and ended with Buu. everything would be exactly the same, the only difference is that the DB part that we know now (Pilaf-Piccolo) wouldn't be a thing.

[ABED]

But not for the audience. THere's a world of difference between beginning a story where characters have backstory you need to set up vs. a show where you are starting in the middle of the story. It's not the same thing.

I'm well aware of the interview you mentioned

Starting with the Bardock special is a terrible idea. It makes him out to be more important than he really is. If you cut out DB, you need to rewrite the beginning of Z dramatically. And why cut out so much of what came before? Why not start with either the Tenshinhan arc or the Piccolo Daimao arc? The later is where the show becomes what many associate with DB. Even that is a bad idea. DB was less successful but it's neccessary to get to DBZ. Just allow the story to unfold naturally. If it had all been DB, even if the beginning might have scared off viewers, the series would've picked up new ones as it went along. It might have spared us attempts from fans to separate the two series and look at DB as unneccessary back story.

[sintzu]

Starting with the Bardock special is a terrible idea. The payoff won't happen until years later.

I meant if the original DB didn't exist and it was Just the Bardock special and the 4 main Z arcs.

[ABED]

Starting with the Bardock special is a terrible idea. The payoff won't happen until years later.

I meant if the original DB didn't exist and it was Just the Bardock special and the 4 main Z arcs.

Terrible. Bardock isn't important to DBZ and the two Piccolo arcs alone are infinitely better than the Cell and Buu arc.