Canon after Toriyama?

[linkdude20002001]

I agree that there can be different canons, but fans don't determine what's canon. At best, we can speculate.

The definition I lookt up says: "established or agreed-upon constraints governing the background narrative, setting, storyline, characters, etc., in a particular fictional world". That doesn't specify anything about an author, company, or owner. By "agreed upon", I can only assume it means "agreed upon by fans of the works".

[Cetra]

I agree that there can be different canons, but fans don't determine what's canon. At best, we can speculate.

The definition I lookt up says: "established or agreed-upon constraints governing the background narrative, setting, storyline, characters, etc., in a particular fictional world". That doesn't specify anything about an author, company, or owner. By "agreed upon", I can only assume it means "agreed upon by fans of the works".

Except that does not work because it a) leads to paradoxical states b) would mean that right holders need to do what the fans say which is nonsense and c) fans who do not own anything of the franchise that gives them any decisive right have no actual power. Detective Conan fans e.g. think the same thing for whatever reason.

[linkdude20002001]

Except that does not work because it a) leads to paradoxical states b) would mean that right holders need to do what the fans say which is nonsense and c) fans who do not own anything of the franchise that gives them any decisive right have no actual power. Detective Conan fans e.g. think the same thing for whatever reason.

Well, I don't think the companies have to do what the fans say, even if we did agree on a canon. They aren't explaining the canon now, so I can't imagine they'd start just cuz fans decided on one. In a world after Toriyama, where maybe Toei let the series disappear and die, it's most certainly up to the fans to decide, much like with Shakespeare's works. In any case, this is a really weird conversation to be having since none of these people/companies have given us any kind of canon, so there's no problem "after Toriyama", but "with Toriyama". And even if Toei decided to create their own canon, depending on what it is, fans mite reject it. And they'd probably constantly add/remove stuff from the canon as they create new stories. I picture it being quite the mess.

[ABED]

I agree that there can be different canons, but fans don't determine what's canon. At best, we can speculate.

The definition I lookt up says: "established or agreed-upon constraints governing the background narrative, setting, storyline, characters, etc., in a particular fictional world". That doesn't specify anything about an author, company, or owner. By "agreed upon", I can only assume it means "agreed upon by fans of the works".

It's agreed upon by some governing body, like the Church decides what is biblical canon. If it's whatever anyone wants, what's the point of the concept?

it's most certainly up to the fans to decide, much like with Shakespeare's works

Not sure what this means.

[linkdude20002001]

It's agreed upon by some governing body, like the Church decides what is biblical canon. If it's whatever anyone wants, what's the point of the concept?

"it's most certainly up to the fans to decide, much like with Shakespeare's works"
Not sure what this means.

It's a littel different with Shakespeare, but with that, it's a matter of people deciding what's "Shakespeare" and what isn't. From collaborations to anonymous plays. He's not here to tell us "These are the plays I wrote, and this is the percentage of each one that I wrote.". It's a different idea of "canon", but similar enuf, I think, for a comparison. Fans of his work have an "official canon" that gets updated as the scholarly fans find more evidence and change their minds. I don't really know how they agree upon it, but my assumption is that not all of them do. Perhaps they have an organization (that acts as an "governing body"), but it's not a company... As a group of people, I guess they must vote?

[ABED]

It's agreed upon by some governing body, like the Church decides what is biblical canon. If it's whatever anyone wants, what's the point of the concept?

"it's most certainly up to the fans to decide, much like with Shakespeare's works"
Not sure what this means.

It's a littel different with Shakespeare, but with that, it's a matter of people deciding what's "Shakespeare" and what isn't. From collaborations to anonymous plays. He's not here to tell us "These are the plays I wrote, and this is the percentage of each one that I wrote.". It's a different idea of "canon", but similar enuf, I think, for a comparison. Fans of his work have an "official canon" that gets updated as the scholarly fans find more evidence and change their minds. I don't really know how they agree upon it, but my assumption is that not all of them do. Perhaps they have an organization (that acts as an "governing body"), but it's not a company... As a group of people, I guess they must vote?

It's not the same thing. We're not figuring out what was written by Toriyama. In this case it's more about what's in continuity. I know I've heard people refer to the Shakespeare canon, but since the works don't have a continuity, I'd say this is a different concept altogether.

If canon is just a matter of whatever anyone wants, what use is the concept? Why not consider fanfiction in that case?

I can only assume it means "agreed upon by fans of the works".

But how many fans have to agree and what if what they agree on doesn't make sense?

[linkdude20002001]

It's not the same thing. We're not figuring out what was written by Toriyama. In this case it's more about what's in continuity.

If canon is just a matter of whatever anyone wants, what use is the concept?

But how many fans have to agree and what if what they agree on doesn't make sense?

I know it's not the same thing, but it is also canon, and my point in comparing it was to show how silly it all is. If Toriyama, Shueisha, Toei, Funimation, etc, were no more, fans would still be arguing over the "official canon". And Toriyama, had he told us what the canon is ten years ago, and then told us again today, stuff probably would've been removed to make way for the new stuff. I guess my point would be that... Well, for one, I agree with you that the concept of "fanmade official canon" is stupid, but also that anything we get from Toriyama or Toei will likely be wishywashy, and thus also stupid. They'll disagree, they change their minds, accidentally forget about stuff previously mentioned to be canon... At that point, when the fans know more about the series than the people in charge, it's fine for fans to decide their own canons. "Headcanon" if you will.

"But how many fans have to agree and what if what they agree on doesn't make sense?"
This I do not know. In a world where we have so many different versions and reversions of DB, I'm sure the "official" canon would piss off half the fans.

[ABED]

It's not the same thing. We're not figuring out what was written by Toriyama. In this case it's more about what's in continuity.

If canon is just a matter of whatever anyone wants, what use is the concept?

I know it's not the same thing, but it is also canon, and my point in comparing it was to show how silly it all is. If Toriyama, Shueisha, Toei, Funimation, etc, were no more, fans would still be arguing over the "official canon". And Toriyama, had he told us what the canon is ten years ago, and then told us again today, stuff probably would've been removed to make way for the new stuff. I guess my point would be that... Well, for one, I agree with you that the concept of "fanmade official canon" is stupid, but also that anything we get from Toriyama or Toei will likely be wishywashy, and thus also stupid. They'll disagree, they change their minds, accidentally forget about stuff previously mentioned to be canon... At that point, when the fans know more about the series than the people in charge, it's fine for fans to decide their own canons. "Headcanon" if you will.

Canon changes. Nothing inherent in the concept implies it can't. I think many fans want it to be fully consistent and unchanging. For some reason, things like this bother them.

I don't like the term "headcanon". It muddles the concept.

[Cetra]

Well, I don't think the companies have to do what the fans say, even if we did agree on a canon.

What gives simple consumers the power to decide over a canon? Where does this come from? This makes no sense and this is why I always find it mindboggling when someone brings this up. Also it leads to a lot of problems that I previously described as "paradoxical states".

They aren't explaining the canon now, so I can't imagine they'd start just cuz fans decided on one.

Considering what the fans say is completely void, of course they are not gonna start deciding based on that. Fans thinking they have that much power is megalomania. Completely unjustified they think they can do something with something that does not even belong to them. What?

In a world after Toriyama, where maybe Toei let the series disappear and die, it's most certainly up to the fans to decide, much like with Shakespeare's works.

And why is that "most certainly" the case? Is there any legal basis or other logical justification for that?

In any case, this is a really weird conversation to be having since none of these people/companies have given us any kind of canon, so there's no problem "after Toriyama", but "with Toriyama". And even if Toei decided to create their own canon, depending on what it is, fans mite reject it. And they'd probably constantly add/remove stuff from the canon as they create new stories. I picture it being quite the mess.

Which already goes with what I am saying. It does not matter what fans reject. It is not up to the consumer to say "uh, uh, this sucks, I THINK, so it aint' cannnnnnon". What is canonical is not up to the consumer or a group of consumers that as we can see from almost every fanbase makes up rules, is highly hypocritical and infantile but those who actually invest money for decisive rights. That is what people do not understand about "the original author decides". The original author does not decide because he is the original author but because he has the right to do so. Why can't even the original author decide if he has sold all that? He is still the original author of all that, right? Well, you cannot have everything. He/She sold the franchise and the decisive rights. The exception would be of course if that person still holds a share of it but for the sake of simplicity I left that out.

[Mister_Popo]

The fact we apparently can decide we enjoy or enjoy not certain things related to them being canon or not, proves in my opinion, despite every definition available, the existence or primary validation of new canon primarily lives in our mind. There is nothing that indicates that, if Toriyamas long gone, although my respect for the old master is still great, another author cannot tell great stories about DB within the same continuity. It's up to us to decide whether we'd accept it as canon or not. But from a pure rational point of view, if one likes new DB-stories, it shouldn't be a turn-off another author created them.

[ABED]

The fact we apparently can decide we enjoy or enjoy not certain things related to them being canon or not, proves in my opinion, despite every definition available, canon primarily exists in our mind. There is nothing that indicates that, if Toriyamas long gone, although my respect for the old master is still great, another author cannot tell great stories about DB within the same continuity.

I don't think anyone believes it's not possible to tell great DB stories without Toriyama, he has a very identifiable voice that even Toei has a hard time imitating. Also, there's so much story that has already been told, I don't know why anyone has a hard time letting it go. It ended on its own terms decades ago.

[Mister_Popo]

The fact we apparently can decide we enjoy or enjoy not certain things related to them being canon or not, proves in my opinion, despite every definition available, canon primarily exists in our mind. There is nothing that indicates that, if Toriyamas long gone, although my respect for the old master is still great, another author cannot tell great stories about DB within the same continuity.

I don't think anyone believes it's not possible to tell great DB stories without Toriyama, he has a very identifiable voice that even Toei has a hard time imitating. Also, there's so much story that has already been told, I don't know why anyone has a hard time letting it go. It ended on its own terms decades ago.

The only thing Toriyama completely has made by himself is the original manga. You can cherish it as your bible as you may. But it doesn't have to be a reason not the enjoy things that Toriyama partially has created or not created at all. At the end, it will still be based on his original idea. New canon will never die, although it's not as authentic in a sense the original author hasn't completely created it to be that way. It's partially filled or completely created by other guys. That, however, doesn't need to be a definitive parameter to no longer enjoy new content, as it still fits within the same continuity when official sources confirm it. A more rational basis should be how qualitative ones thinks the new content really is.

At the end, it's all just fantasy, a trick of the mind, it's up to us to decide whether we enjoy it or not. We shouldn't be lead by parameters that aren't strictly quantifiable.

[sintzu]

The fact we can decide we enjoy certain things related to them being canon or not, proves in my opinion, canon primarily exists in our mind.

What you enjoy or don't has nothing to do with what's "canon". "Canon" is essentially the stories that are taken into account by whever's writing something. For Toriyama it's the stories he's written which is why you don't see things like Z's movie brought up in Super or even the original manga. Once there's a new writer than that can and will most likely change.

[sintzu]

There's so much story that has already been told, I don't know why anyone has a hard time letting it go. It ended on its own terms decades ago.

People let it ago a long time ago as I think the vast majority of fans were happy with how things turned out regarding Toriyama's manga and anime adaptions (GT aside) and if things stayed that way I think fans would still be happy. However, if the right holders and Toriyama want to tell new stories then so be it, if they're good then that's more to enjoy but if not then oh well, we already have a completed work without them.

[Mister_Popo]

The fact we can decide we enjoy certain things related to them being canon or not, proves in my opinion, canon primarily exists in our mind.

What you enjoy or don't has nothing to do with what's "canon". "Canon" is essentially the stories that are taken into account by whever's writing something. For Toriyama it's the stories he's written which is why you don't see things like Z's movie brought up in Super or even the original manga. Once there's a new writer than that can and will most likely change.

I validate your opinion. What i meant, if we are really strict, only the original manga is really canon. I meant with my statement: there are fans that simply cannot enjoy a story because it's officially non-canon in the very strict interpretation Toriyama hasn't created it. But if the man would die someday, why would you no longer enjoy it strictly because he hasn't created it? And what difference does that mentality really make to validate whether or not you enjoy something? It's pointless. At the end the new content will still be based on the world the old master has created. What came after the original manga is all a trick of the mind if you apply it strictly form an 'old school' canon-viewing-point, it's all relative, that's what i meant.

[ABED]

My issue has nothing to do with canon. We're free to enjoy non-canon material, like the movies, but at some point, every story goes over familiar material. If a writer is lucky enough to tell a long story, they cover a lot of ground and going past a certain point almost innevitably results in doing the same thing they did years ago. I'm not inherently averse to new material but after seeing so many of these revivals and being disappointed by them, I'm very pessimistic about them. Let stories end with dignity or do something genuinely new. Bringing in new blood has its upsides, but it also has its negatives, namely it's a different creative voice, which can detract from something that's otherwise good.

I'm at the point where I think serial stories should last for a handful of years to get enough out of their premise and develop their characters, but end before they repeat themselves. Leave the party before it dies down.

[sintzu]

What i meant, if we are really strict, only the original manga is really canon.

There are fans that simply cannot enjoy a story because it's officially non-canon in the very strict interpretation Toriyama hasn't created it.

If we had to pick one thing only then yes, that'd be the "real" canon. The manga's story is the only part of the franchise that fans or even new writers can't dismiss.

There are stories like the movies and additions to the manga by the anime's staff that are really good so I don't understand why one would limit what they can enjoy based on who wrote it.

[ABED]

I would argue that the anime has its own canon. It's an adaptation that sticks closely to the source material, but they have the freedom to do what they want.

[Mister_Popo]

My issue has nothing to do with canon. We're free to enjoy non-canon material, like the movies, but at some point, every story goes over familiar material. If a writer is lucky enough to tell a long story, they cover a lot of ground and going past a certain point almost innevitably results in doing the same thing they did years ago. I'm not inherently averse to new material but after seeing so many of these revivals and being disappointed by them, I'm very pessimistic about them. Let stories end with dignity or do something genuinely new. Bringing in new blood has its upsides, but it also has its negatives, namely it's a different creative voice, which can detract from something that's otherwise good.

I'm at the point where I think serial stories should last for a handful of years to get enough out of their premise and develop their characters, but end before they repeat themselves. Leave the party before it dies down.

I know what you mean. That's one of the reasons i have respect of authors like Alan Moore who don't validate the movie-adaptations of their work. It's meant to be a comic or manga, an adaptation doesn't automatically do anything creative. It has the tendency to do the opposite for commercial benefits.

Dragon Ball hower, i don't see this as a unique philosophical feature anymore, it's there for enjoyment and commercial reasons of course. There is no other show that makes me feel like a 10-year like DB does, it does something magic but it gets the job done.
I still enjoy new content, so why would i say 'no'. I have seen dozens of other anime and manga that have layers of stories and animation DB doesn't reach, but still, it cannot create the same feeling.

We can still cherish the original manga as something unique, this may be entertainment, but one day if a new mind takes over, maybe a real new nenewal can take please and Dragon Ball can explore all new domains.
At this point, i still like it, despite its flaws. Nostalgia is not the only reason involved. It does something creative combining old features with new renewable features. If that were the unique argument, i would still like Star Wars, which isn't the case. I still prefer Dragon Ball a thousand times over.

[ekrolo2]

I'm at the point where I think serial stories should last for a handful of years to get enough out of their premise and develop their characters, but end before they repeat themselves. Leave the party before it dies down.

Agreed, more and more I notice just how regurgitating a lot of series are, to the point where things that used to be special have become banal or a downright joke. Dragon Ball is no real exception, what is Beerus except a slightly more serious version of Boo? Their backstories are identical and their functions in the universe are so similar the redundancy still sticks out like a sore thumb over 5 years later. Freeza's return speaks for itself, it's just a longer, stupider version of the time Trunks killed him. The U6 and Survival arc tournaments are just the Otherworld Tournament except biggerer.

The only concept out of the new stuff that could've justified a temporary revival was the Black arc and even that has to retread the Future Trunks are by introducing ANOTHER apocalyptic doom scenario from which FT has to travel back to the past to fix.

I know what you mean. That's one of the reasons i have respect of authors like Alan Moore who don't validate the movie-adaptations of their work. It's ment to be a comic or manga, an adaptation doesn't automatically do anything creative. It has the tendency to do the opposite for commercial benefits. .

Moore is too much of an extremist when it comes to adaptations because he thinks that things in their origin format should ONLY ever stay there which is true for some things. You can't do the Silmarillion or rather the multitude of stories in it as anything. They're too vast, larger than life and also purposefully vague to ever really adapt.

Moore was definitely right about other things, re-reading Whatever Happen to the Man of Tomorrow and his pitch for Twilight of the Superheroes recently was like a scathing prediction of the future where previously beloved figures become corrupted despite their innocent origins and how the banality and pursuit of short-term sales boosting gimmicks destroys whatever artistry is left.

Fuck, I'm surprised the current entertainment industry hasn't shat out Lord of the Rings 4 by this point. They've already ass fucked Watchmen with the recent Geoff Johns retcon machine, Doomsday Clock so we might as well go all out by this pint.