SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:13 pmYet clearly you don't value all the additions from Super like 11 other universes with their own characters and quirks, new gods, new lore, etc...
Actually I don't, for the simple fact that all of it is underdeveloped and underwhelming. Between Super and Daima, modern DB has over 150 episodes, 4 movies, an OVA, and two original manga arcs, yet somehow it feels like we got nothing out of it. Today's episode perfectly captures what's wrong with modern DB: all style, zero substance.
Funny how you ignored my last point.
Super's been more hated than GT for the past 10 years. You GT fans are repeating talking points that have no longer been relevant since 2015.
Super is literally more hated than GT, and right now Reddit is making fun of Super fans/people who dislike GT. There's so much vitriol going on right now against people like me who dislike SSJ4 that I seriously have to wonder if y'all are still stuck in 2014 with the idea that GT is hated. GT hasn't been hated in 10 years.
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with Toyotaro
Let's not forget we're talking about two cartoon shows here. Neither of them will get erased or anything. It's not a life or death situation.
Canon means diddly squat. A show doesn't magically disappear or become better or worse by being "canon". It also doesn't mean that the storyline somehow magically gets consistent.
Even if you just look at DBZ, there are enough plot holes in it as it is. All the additional shows only made it more complicated.
If you enjoy Super, great.
If you enjoy Daima, great.
If you enjoy GT, great.
It's crazy how personal people take other people's opinions about a cartoon show. And sure DB can mean a lot to people and can have nostalgic or emotional value, which is wonderful. Other people perhaps get that value out of other parts of DB. Be glad for them.
There is a LOT of DB media and you're not obliged to like or even watch it all. Just pick, choose and enjoy it.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:23 pmSuper's been more hated than GT for the past 10 years. You GT fans are still stuck in 2014 with the idea that GT is hated. GT hasn't been hated in 10 years.
GT definitely still gets a lot of hate, just not as much as before. Fans are thankfully realizing that it wasn't as bad as they made it out to be. With that said, the canon police still go after it with little mercy.
Jord wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:32 pmRegarding Super vs GT vs Daima
I expect this to have its own topic once Daima wraps up in two weeks. There's so much to say now that we have three sequels to the original series.
Jord wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:32 pm
Let's not forget we're talking about two cartoon shows here. Neither of them will get erased or anything. It's not a life or death situation.
Canon means diddly squat. A show doesn't magically disappear or become better or worse by being "canon". It also doesn't mean that the storyline somehow magically gets consistent.
Even if you just look at DBZ, there are enough plot holes in it as it is. All the additional shows only made it more complicated.
If you enjoy Super, great.
If you enjoy Daima, great.
If you enjoy GT, great.
It's crazy how personal people take other people's opinions about a cartoon show. And sure DB can mean a lot to people and can have nostalgic or emotional value, which is wonderful. Other people perhaps get that value out of other parts of DB. Be glad for them.
There is a LOT of DB media and you're not obliged to like or even watch it all. Just pick, choose and enjoy it.
I actually agree with all of this.
It's just that the "Super Victim Complex" thing this guy does is very annoying.
Somehow, someway, every single thread turns into "See how Super is hated?!"
Anywaaaay I like how it looks and that it's not Demon-gated but Namekian-gated (so far at least). We'll see how it plays out but I'm happy, the form was always great and incredibly fitting for this franchise that WAS inspired by Journey to the West and Sun Wukong.
So IMO justice was done that Toriyama finally canonized it even if he didn't design it himself originally
Of course it doesn't fix any of the glaring Daima issues but at least there's now some pure hype moment to be had if we can't have genuinely good story and cast
AliTheZombie13 wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:29 pm
"GT hasn't been hated in 10 years."
People today, right now, on this very forum: "GT has fans?!?!"
"Oh no, one or two or three people were mean to GT, that means GT is very hated!"
Meanwhile, on Reddit, the largest online forum
Spoiler:
Nah, this is exactly what I feared. I'd best get myself geared up for the amount of vitriol I'll be getting in the fandom at large. Now that Toriyama made it canon, I'll get ridiculed even more for disliking SSJ4. I mean, can you believe it?
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with Toyotaro
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:13 pmYet clearly you don't value all the additions from Super like 11 other universes with their own characters and quirks, new gods, new lore, etc...
Actually I don't, for the simple fact that all of it is underdeveloped and underwhelming. Between Super and Daima, modern DB has over 150 episodes, 4 movies, an OVA, and two original manga arcs, yet somehow it feels like we got nothing out of it. Today's episode perfectly captures what's wrong with modern DB: all style, zero substance.
I’m of the same mindset primarily because there were three aspects I loved about DB. The lore, the character development, and obviously the action.
You can argue the lore expanded, but not in a sensical manner. Way too many holes for the sake of a showpiece and poorly developed characterization. The action is whatever as it he prior two are what make the action relevant for me.
AliTheZombie13 wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:29 pm
"GT hasn't been hated in 10 years."
People today, right now, on this very forum: "GT has fans?!?!"
"Oh no, one or two or three people were mean to GT, that means GT is very hated!"
Meanwhile, on Reddit, the largest online forum
Spoiler:
Nah, this is exactly what I feared. I'd best get myself geared up for the amount of vitriol I'll be getting in the fandom at large. Now that Toriyama made it canon, I'll get ridiculed even more for disliking SSJ4. I mean, can you believe it?
No the canon police who feel if Toriyama did it it’s a masterpiece by default and if he didn’t do it, it’s automatic garbage are the ones coming after you. Any GT fan would never make that argument because they suffered from liking an “inferior side story” for decades and Super was the “true” continuation of the series.
Those are the people you’re going to have to deal with.
I have made it no secret to anybody on this forum I don't like Super.
But I also don't force people to agree with me, and I don't judge those who like it.
If anything brings you happiness in this life, I am and will always be happy for you.
But, this isn't a thread about Super. I don't know how we got here.
Isn't this thread supposed to be about Goku's form in Daima straight-up lifting from GT?
How did Super get roped into this discussion? How did we go from discussing about the merits/flaws of SSJ4 in Daima to how much Super is hated in contrast to how much GT is hated? What does one thing have to do with another?
As I said in the episode thread, even I'm surprised by how much I actually dig the design. But that might mainly be because it looks like a hybrid of SS4 and SSG, and I'm a big fan of the latter.
Also, Goku going ooga booga and running around on all fours like he's from motherfucking Tomba! is the funniest thing.
AliTheZombie13 wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:35 pmIt's just that the "Super Victim Complex" thing this guy does is very annoying.
I won't go into too much detail so as not to derail the thread any further than it already is, but I've noticed that some GT fans do literally the same thing. A large portion of them always take a very defensive stance, perhaps due to the many years of people badmouthing GT. It's always something like "look how people hate the series" or "look how they idolize Toriyama" (even though he wrote the manga, the best part of the entire franchise).
This "war" to see which anime is better within the franchise makes no sense at all. And I imagine that this new transformation will only heat up the discussions. But I have to say, I saw a LOT of GT fans happy with it, as if they were validated in some way. The people I saw were celebrating GT, not belittling it for the existence of this transformation (as you are saying).
Last edited by BernardoCairo on Fri Feb 14, 2025 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Just sit here and waste your precious time. When you want to do something, don't do it right away. Don't do it when you can. Read my posts instead. It's the only way to live a life without regrets.
This broader fandom discussion is better left for another thread and another time, although I cannot agree with the idea that GT is more hated than Super. That is not what I see and this does not match the experience I've had with the fandom.
To get back to the form, I have rewatched the episode and honestly this form sure is a callback to the original SSJ4. Like the original SSJ4, it got stomped rather quickly once the villain grew in size (Baby becoming Golden Oozaru/Gomah becoming a giant). And like the original SSJ4, it will have to be saved by the interference of someone else (The Saiyans doing the ritual in the case of GT, Glorio restoring Goku to his adult form in the case of Daima).
I do like how the colours are much more in line with beautiful Super Saiyan God. I wonder if the final scene or one of the last scenes of this show is going to set up Lord Beerus' awakening and the Super Saiyan God.
Now people have also been saying that the colours could be inspired by SSJ4 Limit Breaker stuff from Heroes... but seriously? I mean, really? Do you truly think Toriyama cared about Heroes? I mean, it works for me since it means that anything from Heroes is on the table (like Zamasu surviving Zeno's attack), but yeah... I mean... it's possible/plausible... but I think Toriyama just wanted to make his approved SSJ4 form closer to SSG in terms of visuals. Hence, the reddish colours.
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with Toyotaro
Personally I have to say one of the worst decisions in Daima for me personally, its completely baffling and pointless.
Why?
Why copy paste SSJ4 pretty much (which was already done in GT), its LAZY and LAME
Why make everything so overly complicated? Now apparently goku can transform in SSJ4 after the buu saga, what does that make Super now, even more confussing and a mess... oh wait they will come up with some LAME idea again as to why this transformation never exists in Super.
I'm not even going to mention the lame way that this transformation happened.
Just ridicilous in my opinion, pointless and ridicilous.
BernardoCairo wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 4:45 pm
This "war" to see which anime is better within the franchise makes no sense at all. And I imagine that this new format will only increase the discussions. But I have to say I saw a LOT of GT fans happy with it, like they were being validated in some way. The people I saw were celebrating GT, not belittling it for the existence of this transformation (as you are saying).
Few screenshots from BlueSky:
Spoiler:
Translation:
What a great day!
Dragon Ball GT is officially DEAD
Super Saiyan 4 is officially CANON
Might be just the spaces I'm frequenting, but the BR fandom is definitely happy "GT is dead."
BernardoCairo wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 4:45 pm
I won't go into too much detail so as not to derail the thread any further than it already is, but I've noticed that some GT fans do literally the same thing. A large portion of them always take a very defensive stance, perhaps due to the many years of people badmouthing GT. It's always something like "look how people hate the series" or "look how they idolize Toriyama" (even though he wrote the manga, the best part of the entire franchise).
I won't deny I've been guilty of this myself, but please call me out if I do ever derail a thread to talk about GT or make it a pissing contest to see how much it's hated in comparison to anything really when it's completely unwarranted.
FiReFTW wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 4:54 pm
Well, everyone has their own opinion on things.
Personally I have to say one of the worst decisions in Daima for me personally, its completely baffling and pointless.
Why?
Why copy paste SSJ4 pretty much (which was already done in GT), its LAZY and LAME
Why make everything so overly complicated? Now apparently goku can transform in SSJ4 after the buu saga, what does that make Super now, even more confussing and a mess... oh wait they will come up with some LAME idea again as to why this transformation never exists in Super.
I'm not even going to mention the lame way that this transformation happened.
Just ridicilous in my opinion, pointless and ridicilous.
This doesn't confuse things for Super. The gap between SSJ3 and SSJ4 doesn't seem to be that significant going by this episode. Sure Goku gets a few good hits on Gomah but he also gets annihilated as soon as Gomah grows in size. It's fairly simple to headcanon that Goku realized SSJ4 wouldn't stand a chance against Beerus.
Let me remind everyone that Beerus was not even tickled by SSJ3 going out at full power. What difference would SSJ4 make? Nothing.
Furthermore, until the rules of this form are laid out in the upcoming episodes, we can suppose that this form only works in the Demon realm or is activated only by Neva's magic. So it would simply not be an option against Beerus.
Ultimately, just like SSJ3 Vegeta, this form does not contradict anything that happens in Super.
However I agree with the criticism that this form should not have been a SSJ4 copy-paste.
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with Toyotaro
"look at these jerks on Reddit"
"look at these jerks on Blue Sky"
Why does drama happening outside of the forum matter or pertain to a discussion about stuff on the forum? Why are people trying to have oppression Olympics over which children's cartoon is more hated? This is some actual crybaby teenager shit.
Zephyr wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 5:15 pm
"look at these jerks on Reddit"
"look at these jerks on Blue Sky"
Why does drama happening outside of the forum matter or pertain to a discussion about stuff on the forum? Why are people trying to have oppression Olympics over which children's cartoon is more hated? This is some actual crybaby teenager shit.
Agreed -- please knock it off. It's embarrassing to read. Please use your words, use them here, and have a great conversation with your fellow fans. Show and lead by example.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
Zephyr wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 5:15 pm
"look at these jerks on Reddit"
"look at these jerks on Blue Sky"
Why does drama happening outside of the forum matter or pertain to a discussion about stuff on the forum? Why are people trying to have oppression Olympics over which children's cartoon is more hated? This is some actual crybaby teenager shit.
Acid, but thanks for calling out. You're absolutely right, shouldn't let that shit affect me that much.
