What's Canon ? We Finally Have an Answer

[Yellow Flower King]

Not just English, Better Spanish dubs (In various languages! Castillian, Catalan,), French dub so many good dubs out of Kai! I think even Poland dubbed it!

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Not just English, Better Spanish dubs (In various languages! Castillian, Catalan,), French dub so many good dubs out of Kai! I think even Poland dubbed it!

Indeed they did, and by all accounts it was a great dub.

[jjgp1112]

Regarding Kai, the fact that it opens with showing us Goku’s backstory and the destruction of Planet Vegeta always came across like a baffling decision to me. I get them opening the series with a recap of the pre-Raditz stuff so new viewers wouldn’t be completely lost, but why did they feel the need to tell us that Goku is an alien and that Freeza is a thing at the very start of the series? Those were both presented as big reveals in their original context.

That too for sure.

Opening up your alleged “Manga only cut” with footage from an an anime exclusive tv special is itself a baffling decision, and if I remember right over half of Kai episode 1 is still anime filler, but also it ruins the build up. There is no “Who is Kakarot? What does this alien have to do with Goku?” ….what Goku is an alien?!?. It’s just laid all up front. It also gives the impression the pre-Raditz material doesn’t matter. “So this Goku is an alien sent to earth and his planet was destroyed and some stuff happened while he grew up but yada yada the story actually begins when he finds out he’s an alien”

All in all, I think Kai is fairly pointless. I see it less as a more faithful adaptation of the manga and more as a condensed version of the old anime. The only worthwhile thing to come out of its existence is a better English dub.

Bingo on both accounts. It advertises itself as the Akira Toriyama cut but it’s just a truncated edition of the Z anime with censorship

The whole thing is just so slapdash, like Julie was getting at, it wasn't made with any sort of artistic lens, just speedrunning existing material - a prime example of this is say, the Kai episode where Goku goes Super Saiyan. It STARTS OFF with Goku hitting Frieza with the Spirit Bomb, which even for a kid just gives away that it obviously isn't going to work because you don't put the big main event first. It reeked of "Fuck it, they all know what happens anyway; who cares about misdirection and tension?!"

[JulieYBM]

That "fuck it" attitude is also why I'm a big proponent of future adaptions just not adapting the manga as-is. Adaptions need to be different, mediums are different, artists are different and so are audiences.

[Yellow Flower King]

That "fuck it" attitude is also why I'm a big proponent of future adaptions just not adapting the manga as-is. Adaptions need to be different, mediums are different, artists are different and so are audiences.

I dont think the first adaptation adapted the manga as is either, it was a product of its time, it did its best to translate the manga onto a audiovisual medium. I think a new adaptation will also reflect the times and will also do its best to translate the manga onto a audiovisual medium. I hope we get to redo Commander Black and I hope we get a less offensive Mr Popo.

[jjgp1112]

That "fuck it" attitude is also why I'm a big proponent of future adaptions just not adapting the manga as-is. Adaptions need to be different, mediums are different, artists are different and so are audiences.

I dont think the first adaptation adapted the manga as is either, it was a product of its time, it did its best to translate the manga onto a audiovisual medium. I think a new adaptation will also reflect the times and will also do its best to translate the manga onto a audiovisual medium. I hope we get to redo Commander Black and I hope we get a less offensive Mr Popo.

I mean it was way closer to 1:1 than most typical anime, especially once you get to Z. Even something like Yu Yu Hakusho, which was largely faithful still played fast and loose with certain details and used artistic license when they felt necessary (consolidating the ghost adventures and improving the final arc)

[Scsigs]

Kai failed to live up to its own premise in the literal first second and the official most accessible version has a horrendous representation of Kikuchi’s work. I don’t know if I would call it the better thing to watch. It’s just shorter.

And that’s before we get in the trainwreck that was The Final Chapters.

That's more subjective in terms of failing to live up to its premise, imo.

The Kikuchi score, unfortunately, couldn't be helped. In terms of that specifically, because Kenji Yamamoto was hired to score Kai, but got caught plagiarizing the fuck out of other scores, they had to hastily re-edit the soundtrack. Kikuchi's was the most readily available on such short notice since the series was nearly done airing in Japan & they decided to use it since it's associated with Z anyways. For the most part, I don't think the placements are bad in Kai, as I didn't find really any of it to be out of place, but it is a shame that they couldn't go back for the home releases & put the tracks in different places to match where they were in Z originally, but they also had to make new dubbing tracks for the international distributors who were airing their dubs on TV, so I can understand.

The Final Chapters has its problems, but I'd rather watch it than the original cut of the Buu Arc, tbh. Even as-is, it's better-paced & removes most of the worst or most pointless filler from Z for the arc, which is something I appreciate as I hated a lot of the filler from it when I watched it through the Dragon Boxes. The only filler they had left to remove from it was the Hell scenes & it would've been perfect. Though, imo, the arc could've probably been cut down even further. Not like how the first however many episodes the Japanese cut got, but the 2 whole filler episodes that no one gives a shit about should've been excised & the later episodes could've been cut down in places to make it more close to, say, 52-60 episodes. It didn't need to be 69 internationally.
The English dub, though, is 1 of its saving graces. Not sure if I've said it here or not, but I saw some people say that the original Z Buu Arc dub was just fine since it's the better part of that original dub. I hard disagree. While it's better & serviceable, the dub still isn't good per se. It's still extremely flawed & inaccurate & the acting is subpar from a lot of the returning actors & some of the new ones because of their inexperience. "Better than what came before" doesn't mean jackshit if all it is is just slightly better translations. The Ocean dub proves my point because at least the VAs could act even with the bad scripts. Though, I genuinely don't understand some of the weird translation choices where they seemed to intentionally translate some of the smaller lines differently than they did in Z despite the subtitles still translating them the original ways & not for the better because it either ruins jokes, or takes away from the intended simplicity of the original lines.

Regarding Kai, the fact that it opens with showing us Goku’s backstory and the destruction of Planet Vegeta always came across like a baffling decision to me. I get them opening the series with a recap of the pre-Raditz stuff so new viewers wouldn’t be completely lost, but why did they feel the need to tell us that Goku is an alien and that Freeza is a thing at the very start of the series? Those were both presented as big reveals in their original context.

All in all, I think Kai is fairly pointless. I see it less as a more faithful adaptation of the manga and more as a condensed version of the old anime. The only worthwhile thing to come out of its existence is a better English dub.

IMO, they did that specifically as a cold open to intrigue the kids watching who had never seen Z before. Though, it is a bit jarring to go from the slightly more angular artstyle seen in the late Freeza arc to the late-DB/early-Z artstyle so fast since the Bardock special was animated way after the start of Z. I think they also took into account that the audience was gonna find out that information anyways in a few episodes, so they didn't find it such a big deal. However, it does ruin the intended shock of the scenes where it's revealed since it was meant to be this big reveal after years of us thinking we know who Goku is as Toriyama shifted from the more fantasy-oriented world of the previous arcs to a more sci-fi oriented one he'd use for the next 2 arcs after. It's not exactly what I would've done, but considering Kai wasn't airing after the previous arcs of the previous series, it's a decision that at least makes sense when you look at it from another angle.

That too for sure.

Opening up your alleged “Manga only cut” with footage from an an anime exclusive tv special is itself a baffling decision, and if I remember right over half of Kai episode 1 is still anime filler, but also it ruins the build up. There is no “Who is Kakarot? What does this alien have to do with Goku?” ….what Goku is an alien?!?. It’s just laid all up front. It also gives the impression the pre-Raditz material doesn’t matter. “So this Goku is an alien sent to earth and his planet was destroyed and some stuff happened while he grew up but yada yada the story actually begins when he finds out he’s an alien”

At the time, the Bardock special as originally presented was presumed canon, as this was 5 years before Dragon Ball Minus would retcon it for no reason & Toriyama even referenced it in the manga with a panel flashing to Bardock during his last stand against Freeza because he, presumably, liked the special & wanted to pay respect to the anime staff for it. And, as I said above, the producers of Kai clearly thought it was nothing to open on that scene for a cold opening to get the kids watching invested in the show since it'd be airing without the previous arcs before it & we'd be learning that Goku was an alien in a few episodes anyways.

All in all, I think Kai is fairly pointless. I see it less as a more faithful adaptation of the manga and more as a condensed version of the old anime. The only worthwhile thing to come out of its existence is a better English dub.

Bingo on both accounts. It advertises itself as the Akira Toriyama cut but it’s just a truncated edition of the Z anime with censorship

I mean, YMMV on enjoyability, but Kai resulted in a lot of fans joining the fandom & got the English dubs on track with being more faithful to the Japanese dialogue. Hell, Kai's dub also clearly influenced the industry as a whole, as I've seen a lot of other FUNi dubs, Viz dubs, & other English dubs of various animes (both new & old) take cues from it. Accurate, yet playful dialogue that fits well in English? Good voice work & direction? A redub that actively destroys the original, shitty dub in all categories & redeems the English cast in many people's eyes? Not to mention that it's a more enticing version of Z, which, I don't know if you've ever tried to go back & watch it a fresh perspective, but the shit suffers way too much from being a product of its time. Slow ass pacing, even more than you'd expect? Way too much filler, most of which no one actually likes? Bad English dub that only gets points with people who watched it when it came out? Kai did wonders for the brand in many areas. The only way it's "pointless" is if you only care about the Japanese dubs & don't look at the bigger picture, imo. I agree that it should've been a newly-animated series, but considering Toei were looking to produce it on the cheap, I think we certainly could've gotten worse.

It's also the only version of Z to get a halfway decent remaster since Toei outright refuses to pay to do one themselves & FUNi kept fucking it up over & over for no reason.

That "fuck it" attitude is also why I'm a big proponent of future adaptions just not adapting the manga as-is. Adaptions need to be different, mediums are different, artists are different and so are audiences.

I dont think the first adaptation adapted the manga as is either, it was a product of its time, it did its best to translate the manga onto a audiovisual medium. I think a new adaptation will also reflect the times and will also do its best to translate the manga onto a audiovisual medium. I hope we get to redo Commander Black and I hope we get a less offensive Mr Popo.

The original DB anime isn't a 100% accurate manga adaptation. Watching MistareFusion's DB Dissection series, it's actually pretty interesting what they changed from or added to the manga's story. The filler in DB is also less obnoxious than most of the filler in Z.

Commander black, the thing I can see them doing is shrinking his lips & making him less minstrel showy. Make him actually look like a person.
Mr. Popo, I don't see them changing his design at all considering they didn't bother in Kai & Super just kept his look the same from the earlier shows & manga. Maybe they could shrink his lips too, but considering his cultural origins that Toriyama based his design on & him not even being human, I don't think they're gonna do anything about him if they were to do another anime adaptation of the manga.

[WittyUsername]

TFC did the absolute bare minimum when it came to cutting down the filler. It was just lazy all around. It even removed scenes that weren’t filler, namely the gunman’s introduction.

As for opening the show with the Bardock footage. I don’t think there’s any real excuse for that. As I said, opening the show with a recap of OG Dragon Ball is one thing, but you don’t need to open the show by telling us that Goku is an alien. It just makes Raditz’s explanation redundant and it also ruins the revelation that Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta.

[MasenkoHA]

That's more subjective in terms of failing to live up to its premise, imo.

> Touts itself as a manga only edit of Dragon Ball Z even referring to itself as “The Akira Toriyama cut”

>Immediately opens up with footage from a tv only special that Toriyama didn’t write.

Like, I can’t really call that’s subjective. It failed from the word GO.

The Final Chapters is even worse in this regard. Removing a scene from the manga and keeping half the filler, even referencing filler that they had removed in the first Kai series.

.
The English dub, though, is 1 of its saving graces.

Well, yeah. The English dub is pretty much the only reason people glaze Kai so hard. It’s pretty much impossible to see anyone hype up Kai without mentioning the English dub.

At the time, the Bardock special as originally presented was presumed canon, as this was 5 years before Dragon Ball Minus would retcon it for no reason & Toriyama even referenced it in the manga with a panel flashing to Bardock during his last stand against Freeza because he, presumably, liked the special & wanted to pay respect to the anime staff for it. And, as I said above, the producers of Kai clearly thought it was nothing to open on that scene for a cold opening to get the kids watching invested in the show since it'd be airing without the previous arcs before it & we'd be learning that Goku was an alien in a few episodes anyways.

Burdock was canon but that was the extent of it. Yes they couldn’t have known Akira Toriyama was going to do his own version 4 years later but if you’re gonna promote your recut as true to the manga, maybe don’t open with a special that isn’t part of the manga.

Ironically by complete accident, I’m pretty sure Arrival of Raditz from the Saban/Funi dub is closer to the manga than Prologue to Battle Return of Goku.

It's also the only version of Z to get a halfway decent remaster since Toei outright refuses to pay to do one themselves & FUNi kept fucking it up over & over for no reason.

Sure, and even then you still get those hideous redrawn scenes that look like someone slipped in a 7-year olds fanart into the animation. Also just..The Final Chapters.

[Yellow Flower King]

That's more subjective in terms of failing to live up to its premise, imo.

> Touts itself as a manga only edit of Dragon Ball Z even referring to itself as “The Akira Toriyama cut”

>Immediately opens up with footage from a tv only special that Toriyama didn’t write.

Like, I can’t really call that’s subjective. It failed from the word GO.

The Final Chapters is even worse in this regard. Removing a scene from the manga and keeping half the filler, even referencing filler that they had removed in the first Kai series.

.
The English dub, though, is 1 of its saving graces.

Well, yeah. The English dub is pretty much the only reason people glaze Kai so hard. It’s pretty much impossible to see anyone hype up Kai without mentioning the English dub.

At the time, the Bardock special as originally presented was presumed canon, as this was 5 years before Dragon Ball Minus would retcon it for no reason & Toriyama even referenced it in the manga with a panel flashing to Bardock during his last stand against Freeza because he, presumably, liked the special & wanted to pay respect to the anime staff for it. And, as I said above, the producers of Kai clearly thought it was nothing to open on that scene for a cold opening to get the kids watching invested in the show since it'd be airing without the previous arcs before it & we'd be learning that Goku was an alien in a few episodes anyways.

Burdock was canon but that was the extent of it. Yes they couldn’t have known Akira Toriyama was going to do his own version 4 years later but if you’re gonna promote your recut as true to the manga, maybe don’t open with a special that isn’t part of the manga.

Ironically by complete accident, I’m pretty sure Arrival of Raditz from the Saban/Funi dub is closer to the manga than Prologue to Battle Return of Goku.

It's also the only version of Z to get a halfway decent remaster since Toei outright refuses to pay to do one themselves & FUNi kept fucking it up over & over for no reason.

Sure, and even then you still get those hideous redrawn scenes that look like someone slipped in a 7-year olds fanart into the animation. Also just..The Final Chapters.

I have to remind you that until Kai...

-Poland didnt have a real dub.
-Spain had a super shitty dub
-France was the crown jewel of shitty dubs.

Seriously Poland finally got a real dub, Spain finally had a great Castillian Spanish dub. And France got to have Eric Legrand FINALLY show what a fucking badass he was. RIP Eric.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

That's more subjective in terms of failing to live up to its premise, imo.

> Touts itself as a manga only edit of Dragon Ball Z even referring to itself as “The Akira Toriyama cut”

>Immediately opens up with footage from a tv only special that Toriyama didn’t write.

Like, I can’t really call that’s subjective. It failed from the word GO.

The Final Chapters is even worse in this regard. Removing a scene from the manga and keeping half the filler, even referencing filler that they had removed in the first Kai series.

.
The English dub, though, is 1 of its saving graces.

Well, yeah. The English dub is pretty much the only reason people glaze Kai so hard. It’s pretty much impossible to see anyone hype up Kai without mentioning the English dub.

At the time, the Bardock special as originally presented was presumed canon, as this was 5 years before Dragon Ball Minus would retcon it for no reason & Toriyama even referenced it in the manga with a panel flashing to Bardock during his last stand against Freeza because he, presumably, liked the special & wanted to pay respect to the anime staff for it. And, as I said above, the producers of Kai clearly thought it was nothing to open on that scene for a cold opening to get the kids watching invested in the show since it'd be airing without the previous arcs before it & we'd be learning that Goku was an alien in a few episodes anyways.

Burdock was canon but that was the extent of it. Yes they couldn’t have known Akira Toriyama was going to do his own version 4 years later but if you’re gonna promote your recut as true to the manga, maybe don’t open with a special that isn’t part of the manga.

Ironically by complete accident, I’m pretty sure Arrival of Raditz from the Saban/Funi dub is closer to the manga than Prologue to Battle Return of Goku.

It's also the only version of Z to get a halfway decent remaster since Toei outright refuses to pay to do one themselves & FUNi kept fucking it up over & over for no reason.

Sure, and even then you still get those hideous redrawn scenes that look like someone slipped in a 7-year olds fanart into the animation. Also just..The Final Chapters.

I have to remind you that until Kai...

-Poland didnt have a real dub.
-Spain had a super shitty dub
-France was the crown jewel of shitty dubs.

Seriously Poland finally got a real dub, Spain finally had a great Castillian Spanish dub. And France got to have Eric Legrand FINALLY show what a fucking badass he was. RIP Eric.

Dragon Ball Z movies 12 and 13 were dubbed in Polish in the early 2000s and Super got a Polish dub 5 years before Kai, but otherwise I agree with everything you said.

[Yellow Flower King]

A Real dub of the actual series. Seriously. That's even sadder. Like the ACTUAL SERIES didnt have a dub that wasnt a lektor.

[Von]

How did this post about canon and continuities become a post about dubs?

Also OG French Dub was stellar DESPITE having been scripted in 1988, before guides and before internet verification and before the manga arrived (in 1993). Yes we kinda had to randomly change a couple of names, but we didn't change neither the stakes nor the characterization of almost everyone... I will FIGHT YOU on this lol (but yeah that script is the script the English dub used as a basis for the Green dub, so you guys misunderstood what we adapted / localized and made it worse lol)

Eric Legrand was a badass since 1988 (as he voiced Yamcha) and he didn't need to hold back, even before KAI. Seriously there's videos of him and Patrick Borg (adult Goku) working together as early as 1993 and they're basically the same as they were for DBS Broly (fighting like a married couple when doing Gogeta lol)

(my dub hot takes as a FR-SPA-EN speaker, knowing that Kai isn't something I cared about and as such I don't have strong memories of it for FR / SPA / PT, But Kai JPN is pretty meh )
OG JPN > LATAM SPA = FR > BR PT > KAI EN > KAI JPN > (Z) EN > SPA SPA

[Zephyr]

the Kai episode where Goku goes Super Saiyan. It STARTS OFF with Goku hitting Frieza with the Spirit Bomb, which even for a kid just gives away that it obviously isn't going to work because you don't put the big main event first. It reeked of "Fuck it, they all know what happens anyway; who cares about misdirection and tension?!"

To be fair, wasn't the original run of the anime largely produced with the assumption that most viewers had already read the manga, hence the many extremely spoilerific episode titles?

[Von]

Even the manga didn't care about spoilers. Chapter titles, like Episode titles, are super explicit to what's in it (including the reveal lol)
There's no such thing as a "spoiler culture" anyway, it's all about how they do it and how they get there ^^

[Scsigs]

Japan & America have very different views on spoilers. Take the Kingdom Hearts 3 trailers from 2017-2018. They spoiled goddamn nearly EVERYTHING important in the story except the very ending of the game to the point that a lot of people went into the game with certain expectations & were disappointed when what was in the game wasn't as good as what people theorized. The trailers for the Re:Mind DLC then only had stuff from early on in the DLC so people wouldn't have too high of expectations going in. By contrast, trailers in the US for video games usually only have stuff from early on in the games & do breakdowns of gameplay systems & what not so people can just experience the story as it was produced.