When the hell did Tapion go to?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:15 am

Since I'm in a "let's solve the whole time travel imbroglio" mood...

It looks like there's a Majin-Boo arc old interview where Toriyama pretty much explains why Androids #17 and #18 were so evil in future Trunks' timeline.
Basically, when Gokû defeated Freeza and Cold, he spared the lives of some of Cold's men (whereas Trunks killed them all)... and some of the survivors went on to kill a bunch of people, including the parents of the soon-to-be #17 and #18.

This explains that, I guess.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Thu May 31, 2007 4:04 am

Olivier Hague wrote:Since I'm in a "let's solve the whole time travel imbroglio" mood...

It looks like there's a Majin-Boo arc old interview where Toriyama pretty much explains why Androids #17 and #18 were so evil in future Trunks' timeline.
Basically, when Gokû defeated Freeza and Cold, he spared the lives of some of Cold's men (whereas Trunks killed them all)... and some of the survivors went on to kill a bunch of people, including the parents of the soon-to-be #17 and #18.

This explains that, I guess.

There is no end to the little tidbits one can learn about the Dragonball universe. That brought a whole new sense to the situation...and I never knew.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:06 am

Dayspring wrote:
Xyex wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Why? Then it's always about paradoxes. I very much like the idea of alternate timelines, it's just it wasn't explained in a reader-friendly way.
Not always. There have been a few cases where the time traveller effects their own time but doesn't cause a paradox since any changes they make to history can't effect them in the past. Therefor, even if they remove the reason they went back, or even stop themselves from existing, they're still there to effect the changes.
But that ends up being the point of the fanboy discussion: "the zomg! That can't happen since it makes a paradox!" Terminator, for example. Dragonball offered something fairly unique.

EDIT: Speaking of the Terminator series, the Sarah Connor Chronicles tv show (by FOX) will retcon T3 out of existence! Yaaaaaay!

Not in my example. In my example there is no such thing as a paradox. Sure, the time traveller came from a future that no longer exists but they weren't in it anymore for it to matter. Time Cop and 7 Days both used this system.

As for T3, I liked T3. I don't think the FOX series is going to retcon the movie out of existance. Just retcon the events before the movie some. Wouldn't be the first change. Hell, T3 itself retconed the age of John in T2.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:51 pm

Xyex wrote: As for T3, I liked T3. I don't think the FOX series is going to retcon the movie out of existance. Just retcon the events before the movie some. Wouldn't be the first change. Hell, T3 itself retconed the age of John in T2.

A pointless retcon at that. Plus they retconned the primary use of the T-800s (instead of being used for infiltration, they're used as footsoldiers. Granted this was shown in T2, but in T2 that was when Skynet itself was being attacked, so they were being used to beef up the defence). They also retconned the design of the T-800 so that it can be exceptionally easily destroyed (just slightly damage one of its two pocket-nuke power cores). Lastly, they retconned Skynet's creation. Instead of being the supercomputer we knew it to be in T1, T2, and even most of T3, we find out Skynet is actually a computer virus.

Olivier: I don't remember reading that. Where's that interview from? Does it explain why they were weaker than in that timeline, or why #16 was activated in the main timeline?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:40 pm

Dayspring wrote:A pointless retcon at that. Plus they retconned the primary use of the T-800s (instead of being used for infiltration, they're used as footsoldiers. Granted this was shown in T2, but in T2 that was when Skynet itself was being attacked, so they were being used to beef up the defence). They also retconned the design of the T-800 so that it can be exceptionally easily destroyed (just slightly damage one of its two pocket-nuke power cores). Lastly, they retconned Skynet's creation. Instead of being the supercomputer we knew it to be in T1, T2, and even most of T3, we find out Skynet is actually a computer virus.

I don't remember seeing actual T-800s as foot soldiers. The skeleton-like robots weren't the same thing as the T-800 infiltrators. As for the design change, the Terminator in T3 isn't the same model as in T1 and T2. IIRC, it was a T-850. Therefor no actual design change to the existing machines, just a different, though similar, model.

And Skynet wasn't changed to a computer virus. It just made itself appear to be one. It's simply a piece of distributed computing software. It's still a super supercomputer, it just uses distributed computing as a opposed to a central unit and the movies never said it was a central unit originally.

Anyway, to get this post back onto topic....

Since I'm in a "let's solve the whole time travel imbroglio" mood...

It looks like there's a Majin-Boo arc old interview where Toriyama pretty much explains why Androids #17 and #18 were so evil in future Trunks' timeline.
Basically, when Gokû defeated Freeza and Cold, he spared the lives of some of Cold's men (whereas Trunks killed them all)... and some of the survivors went on to kill a bunch of people, including the parents of the soon-to-be #17 and #18.

This explains that, I guess.

Seriously? Neat. I'd always just chalked it up to time. The ones in the future had been around longer so they'd sort of gone a bit psychotic. But I suppose this makes sense too.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:16 pm

Dayspring wrote:Where's that interview from?

I don't know, but I would bet on Weekly Jump.
Of course, that's if there really is such an interview in the first place. I think it's legit, but hey.

Does it explain why they were weaker than in that timeline, or why #16 was activated in the main timeline?

Nope.

I believe some people around here think they weren't really weaker, they were just bluffing (hence the comment to future Gohan right before his death in "Trunks The Story"). I can't say I find that explanation truly satisfying, but I guess it could work.

As for #16, maybe we don't really need a full-fledged explanation. After all, one would assume the circumstances surrounding the activation of #17 and #18 in Trunks' timeline were fairly different (the good guys hadn't been warned, so they probably didn't go so far as to follow Dr. Gero in his laboratory and force him to activate new Androids). Maybe Dr. Gero had already disposed of #16?
A pet theory of mine was that #16 was in fact activated in Trunks' timeline but had been destroyed (or self-destructed?) in some dramatic fashion, that event being the cause for #17 and #18 becoming "truly evil" toward humans. Of course that was before I learned about that supposed interview. ^^;

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:40 pm

I believe some people around here think they weren't really weaker, they were just bluffing (hence the comment to future Gohan right before his death in "Trunks The Story"). I can't say I find that explanation truly satisfying, but I guess it could work.

I'm one of those. I believe that Trunks never fought the Androids in his time when they were at full strength, just half strength, so Trunks assumed the Androids of the past were stronger since they fought at full strength.

As for #16, maybe we don't really need a full-fledged explanation. After all, one would assume the circumstances surrounding the activation of #17 and #18 in Trunks' timeline were fairly different (the good guys hadn't been warned, so they probably didn't go so far as to follow Dr. Gero in his laboratory and force him to activate new Androids). Maybe Dr. Gero had already disposed of #16?
A pet theory of mine was that #16 was in fact activated in Trunks' timeline but had been destroyed (or self-destructed?) in some dramatic fashion, that event being the cause for #17 and #18 becoming "truly evil" toward humans. Of course that was before I learned about that supposed interview. ^^;

I've always figured that, even without the warning, at least Vegeta was strong enough to take out 19. 20 would have probably given him the slip then and without them on his tail wouldn't have had to rush with activating 17 and 18. Perhaps then taking more precautions with 16.

Of course, if that article is accurate, it could just be another personality difference. Trunks' Androids didn't want any company.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:10 pm

Xyex wrote:
I believe some people around here think they weren't really weaker, they were just bluffing (hence the comment to future Gohan right before his death in "Trunks The Story"). I can't say I find that explanation truly satisfying, but I guess it could work.
I'm one of those. I believe that Trunks never fought the Androids in his time when they were at full strength, just half strength, so Trunks assumed the Androids of the past were stronger since they fought at full strength.

I wonder why I never thought of that... I suppose it's possible, but I still prefer to toss it up to timeline differences.

Xyex wrote:
As for #16, maybe we don't really need a full-fledged explanation. After all, one would assume the circumstances surrounding the activation of #17 and #18 in Trunks' timeline were fairly different (the good guys hadn't been warned, so they probably didn't go so far as to follow Dr. Gero in his laboratory and force him to activate new Androids). Maybe Dr. Gero had already disposed of #16?
A pet theory of mine was that #16 was in fact activated in Trunks' timeline but had been destroyed (or self-destructed?) in some dramatic fashion, that event being the cause for #17 and #18 becoming "truly evil" toward humans. Of course that was before I learned about that supposed interview. ^^;
I've always figured that, even without the warning, at least Vegeta was strong enough to take out 19. 20 would have probably given him the slip then and without them on his tail wouldn't have had to rush with activating 17 and 18. Perhaps then taking more precautions with 16.

Of course, if that article is accurate, it could just be another personality difference. Trunks' Androids didn't want any company.

My thoughts were, since SSJ pre-ROSAT is just a simple multiplier of 50, that even without the warning, Vegeta would have become more than strong enough to take on #19.

Think about it: Goku returns and kicks Freeza's and Cold's ass. Vegeta would still get the gravity room in order to surpass Goku. Later that year, Goku dies, so he stops training. If all that happens is that Vegeta catches up to Goku's strength at the time he fought Freeza, he's still got a PL of 150 million (in SSJ) by the time #19 and #20 arrive. It's entirely possible that they were weaker than Freeza for all we know.

From there, I just figured Vegeta destroys #19 with less ease than the manga, but everything follows the same: the sight of #19 being destroyed causes #20 to leave for his base, he activates and gets destroyed by #17 and #18. I always figured they just didn't bother freeing #16 since they were more evil.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:34 pm

Dayspring wrote:Goku returns and kicks Freeza's and Cold's ass. Vegeta would still get the gravity room in order to surpass Goku. Later that year, Goku dies, so he stops training. If all that happens is that Vegeta catches up to Goku's strength at the time he fought Freeza, he's still got a PL of 150 million (in SSJ) by the time #19 and #20 arrive. It's entirely possible that they were weaker than Freeza for all we know.

From there, I just figured Vegeta destroys #19 with less ease than the manga, but everything follows the same: the sight of #19 being destroyed causes #20 to leave for his base, he activates and gets destroyed by #17 and #18. I always figured they just didn't bother freeing #16 since they were more evil.

Still...
1) They weren't warned, so they wouldn't be at the right place at the right time, on the day of the Androids' arrival. That alone would change a lot of things, in my opinion (especially considering there's no ki for them to sense).
2) Trunks apparently hadn't heard anything about other Androids.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:16 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Goku returns and kicks Freeza's and Cold's ass. Vegeta would still get the gravity room in order to surpass Goku. Later that year, Goku dies, so he stops training. If all that happens is that Vegeta catches up to Goku's strength at the time he fought Freeza, he's still got a PL of 150 million (in SSJ) by the time #19 and #20 arrive. It's entirely possible that they were weaker than Freeza for all we know.

From there, I just figured Vegeta destroys #19 with less ease than the manga, but everything follows the same: the sight of #19 being destroyed causes #20 to leave for his base, he activates and gets destroyed by #17 and #18. I always figured they just didn't bother freeing #16 since they were more evil.
Still...
1) They weren't warned, so they wouldn't be at the right place at the right time, on the day of the Androids' arrival. That alone would change a lot of things, in my opinion (especially considering there's no ki for them to sense).
2) Trunks apparently hadn't heard anything about other Androids.

1) Eventually they would have learned about the Androids, be it through the news or whatever. Ex: "Two weird people with astonishing powers have been reported to be responsible for the destruction of the island!" Piccolo and co go to investigate, someone gets attacked to have their energy drained.

2) Vegeta destroyed them prior to Gohan and the news learning about them, so Trunks and Bulma only knew about #17 and #18.

EDIT: Plus Trunks did warn them about #19 and #20, so maybe the Trunks who gave the warning and the Trunks who showed up to fight 3 years later are from two separate timelines.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:36 pm

Dayspring wrote:1) Eventually they would have learned about the Androids, be it through the news or whatever.

Yes, eventually.

2) Vegeta destroyed them prior to Gohan and the news learning about them

Well, I'm not saying it's impossible for Trunks to not know that there were other Androids, I just think it's unlikely. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Plus Trunks did warn them about #19 and #20, so maybe the Trunks who gave the warning and the Trunks who showed up to fight 3 years later are from two separate timelines.

Please don't go there. ^^;;

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:16 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Dayspring wrote:1) Eventually they would have learned about the Androids, be it through the news or whatever.
Yes, eventually.

2) Vegeta destroyed them prior to Gohan and the news learning about them
Well, I'm not saying it's impossible for Trunks to not know that there were other Androids, I just think it's unlikely. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Plus Trunks did warn them about #19 and #20, so maybe the Trunks who gave the warning and the Trunks who showed up to fight 3 years later are from two separate timelines.
Please don't go there. ^^;;

1) The point I was making is that, to reduce the amount of damage created between their first appearence and the first battle, Trunks just informed Goku of the very first time the androids attacked.

2) Agreed, but it happened none-the-less, no? Unless of course...

3) ...we go with here.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:00 am

Dayspring wrote:The point I was making is that, to reduce the amount of damage created between their first appearence and the first battle, Trunks just informed Goku of the very first time the androids attacked.

Wow. I really don't follow you, here, sorry. ^^;
My point was that since Gokû & co. weren't warned about the Androids, they wouldn't be in the right place on the day the Androids first appeared, they wouldn't know what could have happened in that town (they wouldn't sense any ki, and wouldn't expect ki-less enemies), etc. So things would have gone differently on many levels, which could account for #16 not being activated by #17 and #18 in that timeline.

it happened none-the-less, no? Unless of course... we go with here.

No. Just... no. ^^;
I think it's a lot simpler to assume that the good guys never saw or knew about #19 and #20, in Trunks' timeline.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:21 am

So, uh, 19 and 20 were out to attack Goku, right? So why did they appear on that island instead of sneaking up on Goku's house and blowing it up while he was asleep?

Ah, 19 and 20 are energy absorbing models, yes? If the heroes didn't show up and they kept destroying things, would their average victims have been enough to keep them charged? If not, it would stand to reason that 19 might flop before the heroes showed up, but late enough for them to take the hint that they have an enemy to fight, so Gero might have activated 17 and 18 at that point: still plenty of room for the no 16 theory, but pressed enough that more firepower was needed without time to recharge 19?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:08 am

In response to both of you:

My thought was that #19 and #20 went to the island to get ready for the fight by absorbing everybody's energy. They need 2 things: to absorb energy and attract Goku's attention. What better way than to do both? Average PL of 5 x a capitol city's worth of people = a good couple million boost in strength each. News breaks out concerning what's happening, everyone goes to the island, but because they can't sense ki, #19 and #20 finish off the city, or at least a good chunk before the fight starts. Remember: the androids attacked Yamcha once they realized great PLs were in the area. It stands to reason that the same would occur.

From there, #19 gets defeated by Vegeta, so Gero heads back to his base. Even if they're another city, all that needs to happen is for Gero to escape and reach the lab, so it's possible Trunks misunderstood Gohan when he said #17 and #18 killed Gero.

As for #19 dieing from lack of energy, I don't think they lose energy quite that fast. It seems like they lose it quickly like fighters do: from spending vast amounts in one shot (like #19 had to do in order to avoid being destroyed by Goku).

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:10 am

caejones wrote:So, uh, 19 and 20 were out to attack Goku, right? So why did they appear on that island instead of sneaking up on Goku's house and blowing it up while he was asleep?

I'd think the first attack was some kind of test.

Ah, 19 and 20 are energy absorbing models, yes? If the heroes didn't show up and they kept destroying things, would their average victims have been enough to keep them charged? If not, it would stand to reason that 19 might flop before the heroes showed up

I... would expect them to have a bit more autonomy than that. ^^;
(but yeah, I guess there's no way to tell)