After all these years, I hear that Frieza's PL was wrong?

vicdmx · Post by **vicdmx** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:37 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
JulieYBM wrote: And just to make it clear, when Son was fighting Ginyu, did he double his power? I've seen people say he was using a triple or ten times Kaiô-Ken. Which was it?
No, it was just a regular ol' Kaio-Ken. His power doubled, going from 90,000 to 180,000, if I recall correctly.

90,000 to 180,000? so large?

The Madness · Post by **The Madness** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:42 pm

Yep. 180,000 IIRC.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:07 pm

vicdmx wrote: 90,000 to 180,000? so large?

It's that Super Saiyan power getting closer and closer to emerging, baby!

...Which is a good way to explain why Goku and Vegeta's gains on Namek were so huge. The Super Saiyan power in them was steadily "working its way out," so to speak, by giving them progressively larger recovery boosts each time. Goku, being "the" Legendary Super Saiyan, just got bigger ones, and reached the pinnacle first. It could also thusly explain why they didn't seem to gain any "zenkais" after becoming Super Saiyans.

USSJed · Post by **USSJed** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:10 pm

Vegeta didn't know how to supress. He picked it up from the humans (and Goku). Remember when he kept his level low to trick Kewi? That was a new skill. So Vegeta would not have been 15,000.

I disagree, what did Vegeta do during that great Power Up thing in the Saiyan Saga then, if that wasn't increasing his power, then what was it?

Although I do agree that he can't just raise or lower it like the Z Fighters, he definitely became more powerful by doing that.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:20 pm

USSJed wrote:
Vegeta didn't know how to supress. He picked it up from the humans (and Goku). Remember when he kept his level low to trick Kewi? That was a new skill. So Vegeta would not have been 15,000.
I disagree, what did Vegeta do during that great Power Up thing in the Saiyan Saga then, if that wasn't increasing his power, then what was it?

I'll point to my earlier post again.

Vegeta hadn't been hiding his Ki, he just "pumped himself up," so to speak, once it was his turn to fight. Other characters within Freeza's forces could do the same, without actually being able to fully control or suppress their power. In addition to Vegeta, Nappa did it, Captain Ginyu did it, and Freeza did it, to name the ones I can remember.

Even though they can do that, they still don't have nearly as intricate or understanding a grasp on ki as the warriors from Earth do. As such, they don't have the precise control that allows them to do fancy stuff with it like suppress it to avoid detection. We know from reading the manga that most other characters beyond the Earth heroes can't suppress their ki, nor have they ever really heard of the concept. I believe at one point, Dodoria was left confused, believing Gohan and/or Kuririn to have somehow completely vanished.

USSJed · Post by **USSJed** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:30 pm

So you think he didn't actually increase his Power Level?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:34 pm

USSJed wrote:So you think he didn't actually increase his Power Level?

He did increase it. But not in the sense that he'd been hiding it. He did the ki equivalent of flexing your biceps.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:34 pm

USSJed wrote:So you think he didn't actually increase his Power Level?

Power level, as in what someone sees on a scouter? No. I think he powered up in the sense that he gathered his ki and prepared to fight seriously. But just because he was dogging it earlier doesn't mean he could supress his ki level. He specifically states that doing so was something he learned after the fight on Earth.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:52 pm

Imagine a muscley guy casually punching whatever comes close to him, or perhaps throwing baseballs or something.
Then all of a sudden, one of his targets starts mocking him, and you can visibly tell he's pissed off, and see a noticeable change in his body language and the power behind his attacks
Was he
Freeza's fighters seem to treat ki just like that.

... This feels like a waste. I was going to try another analogy using Nappa, Kuririn and Mr. Satan as examples... but now I don't feel like it. Maybe when I'm less tired...
Meh, the general idea is... each of them trying to knock down a skyscraper. Nappa can just push it over, because he's just that strong. (We assume that the structure is scaled in resistance so I'm not implying power levels.

.). Kuririn can take it out, but instead of using brute force, he focuses all of his strength into the wekest point of the building, so the rest is simple. Whereas Mr. Satan might punch a few holes in the walls, but isn't taking it down so easily.
... Oh, right. Somehow it completely slipped my mind until just now that Freeza got taken down not by being overpowered, but by getting cut up by his own attack. I guess the rest of the fight makes that part uncomfortably forgettable. (Especially since it's one of the few parts of the fight I actually bothered watching when it first aired... o.o?)

USSJed · Post by **USSJed** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:13 pm

I'm definitely not implying that Vegeta could suppress his power level back in the Saiyan Saga, it just seems weird he would do all that powering up if it didn't actually increase his strength...

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:45 pm

USSJed wrote:I'm definitely not implying that Vegeta could suppress his power level back in the Saiyan Saga, it just seems weird he would do all that powering up if it didn't actually increase his strength...

That's because you're looking at it from the perspective of the kind of power-ups done later. Such as Gohan and Krillin against Guldo or when Freeza went to 100% and it's not quite the same. The difference with the likes of Nappa and Vegeta is that their number would remain the same no matter what. All they're doing is drawing out more energy to make use of.

For Nappa and Vegeta it's like if they were a car, their engine would be running at full power all the time, whether their sitting still, moving at 5 miles an hour, or going 300 miles an hour. Meanwhile if the Z fighters were sitting still they're engine would be idling, at 5 miles it'd be going just enough to move at 5 miles, and so on.

All Nappa and Vegeta did was gather more of their already being produced energy to make use of. While the Z fighters increase the production of their energy back up to more normal levels.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:55 pm

Right. The kind of "powering up" that most of the heroes do is bringing out strength that they had hidden. Like Xyex mentioned with Guldo. Going by his scouter, he though Gohan and Kuririn were weaklings. But then they let loose and revealed their power.

Later on, Ginyu "powered up" against Goku. But not in the same sense. Ginyu hadn't been masking his power in order to fool Goku. Rather, he had just been relaxed up to that point since he hadn't been fighting. When he did fight, his "powering up" was just getting his power ready for use.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:10 pm

Like the difference between poking a carton of milk and punching it as hard as you can. Your muscles don't suddenly increase in strength, you just used more of what they already had to offer.

USSJed · Post by **USSJed** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:03 am

Ahh ok it makes sense now!

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:47 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:
JulieYBM wrote: And just to make it clear, when Son was fighting Ginyu, did he double his power? I've seen people say he was using a triple or ten times Kaiô-Ken. Which was it?
No, it was just a regular ol' Kaio-Ken. His power doubled, going from 90,000 to 180,000, if I recall correctly.

And had he used the ten times (I think he could have at that point, right) he'd be at almost one million. That'd had really made Ginyu crap himself...