SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku

[Onikage725]

But there's at least as much "theoretical" evidence against it as well. I mean, this is like saying "Trunks must have gone SSJ2 after going to future." He was as strong or stronger than Vegeta, and had the potential. But noone said he did, so we can't really assume that he did can we? It would just be speculation. Noone made any remark even remotely implying Vegeta was "ascended" at the start of the Buu Saga. The closest anyone actually has is that "he had the potential" or "he wanted to fight Dabura." Good points, but hardly overwhelmingly clear evidence. Rocketman even suggested that Vegeta's motivation for the change was rage because Gohan could (similar to his motivation for going SSJ). I'm not saying that is out of the question for the story. I'm just saying... that isn't actually stated or shown or hinted at in the story. You guys want us to swallow that Vegeta was as intense as ever, yet the Buu Saga has an entire major subplot given to Vegeta selling himself to a psychopath just so that he can rid himself of the compassion and what he saw as weakness that had built up within him. He trained, sure. He does say as much at the end of the Cell Saga. But he was also domesticated.

Like Kid Trunks pointed out, Vegeta was pissed (no, not explosively so, but he wasn't totally relaxed about it like you guys are saying) when he says "so that's it..." Shortly after he adds "So that rotten Kakarotto has indeed overcome that wall as well... the Super Saiyan wall..."
I always took "as well" to indicate Gohan, since all it means is that Goku has joined the ranks, per se. This is also makes sense because he later amends this from "as well (as Gohan, in this theory)" to pointing out that he's stronger than Gohan. Back to Kid Trunks' point- the burst against Yakon was what triggered Vegeta's decision to be possessed. He flat out tells us this. Before their big fight he says "Even greater than the power Gohan had back then," in reference to Goku's full power. So if he sensed less than Gohan against Cell during the Yakon fight, but was still completely convinced he couldn't possibly take Goku without outside help (and let's remember this is the "true Saiyan warriors don't need help" egomaniac, so this decision was pretty extreme), how in the hell could he possibly have been SSJ2? Given the fact that he kept training all those years, if he had ascended, HE should have been more badass than Gohan had been against Cell WITHOUT the need of a mystical boost.

Heh, I dunno, I don't mean to sound so matter of fact. I just don't know how else to phrase my side of the debate. I just don't think Toriyama was going for "Vegeta's keeping SSJ2 on the DL."

[Conan the SSJ]

I mean, this is like saying "Trunks must have gone SSJ2 after going to future." He was as strong or stronger than Vegeta, and had the potential. But noone said he did, so we can't really assume that he did can we? It would just be speculation.

Need I mention Budokai 2 and Budokai 3 giving him the ability to go level 2?

[Anonymous Friend]

I mean, this is like saying "Trunks must have gone SSJ2 after going to future." He was as strong or stronger than Vegeta, and had the potential. But noone said he did, so we can't really assume that he did can we? It would just be speculation.

Need I mention Budokai 2 and Budokai 3 giving him the ability to go level 2?

They also give Videl and Hercule the ability to completely dominate a Fused SSJ4.

[Onikage725]

I mean, this is like saying "Trunks must have gone SSJ2 after going to future." He was as strong or stronger than Vegeta, and had the potential. But noone said he did, so we can't really assume that he did can we? It would just be speculation.

Need I mention Budokai 2 and Budokai 3 giving him the ability to go level 2?

Or Cell fusing with Kuririn, or Ten and Yamucha fusing via dance.

Or my personal favorite- Yajirobe, when properly customized, being invincible in BT2. Seriously, ask Kunzait, it isn't even funny how ridiculous that is.

[Rocketman]

Why is it out of the possibility that Vegeta is a weak SSJ2? Vegeta even says to Goku when Gohan's turn comes up, "He's been slacking off, we're stronger than he is now." (Again, pardon paraphrasing.) So, Vegeta's an SSJ2 and despite being domesticated, he does train, so he's stronger than Buu Saga Gohan but weaker than Cell Games Gohan.

There's also an extra motivation for Vegeta selling his soul to Babidi - Goku's only got one day on Earth. So, Vegeta sees Goku's SSJ2 powers are greater than his own... he doesn't have the time to go train or anything to get stronger normally....that guy Babidi possessed got a lot of strength... hmm...

So, it's not that possession is the only way for Vegeta to catch up, it's that possession is the only way for Vegeta to catch up in 24 hours.

[Xyex]

I wouldn't exactly say that. It does, after all, push him into selling his soul to match Goku.

Vegeta doesn't flip out righ there, he doesn't become his normal 'GOD DAMN YOU KAKAROTTO! self' when he sees Goku's power. He's a lot calmer than one would expect if Goku had acheived a level of power that he had not. You saw his reaction to SSJ3 later on. He was as much pissed that Goku had beaten him to a new level of power as he was that he'd held it back and led him to believe he'd had a chance.

I don't really think Toriyama put as much thought into the manga as he gets credit for. Put simply, if something isn't outright stated, it didn't happen. If Vegeta really was a SSJ2 before the Majin charm we would have have seen it somewhere.

And by that train of thought, if he hadn't reached it yet some comment would have been made following the Majin power-up that he used that power to obtain the second level. No such claim was made, no refrence to how he reached the level was given. If Toriyama had intended the power-up to be the cause of Vegeta reaching the second level it would have been explicitly stated that way.

I don't think Vegeta could've reached a Super Saiyan 2 before he was turned into Majin Vegeta. If he was a Super Saiyan 2, he would've arrogantly thought he was at least equal to Goku. Instead, he did allow Babidi to take control.

And why, pray tell, would he have thought that? He knew that seven years ago Goku had him greatly outclassed as an SSJ. He knew that over those seven years Goku had been training just as intensely, if not more so, than himself. Thus it stands to reason that he would have believed his own SSJ2 level to be equally inferior to Goku's SSJ2 as his SSJ1 had been to Goku's SSJ1 back at the Cell Games.

Or Cell fusing with Kuririn, or Ten and Yamucha fusing via dance.

That's call having fun.

Or my personal favorite- Yajirobe, when properly customized, being invincible in BT2. Seriously, ask Kunzait, it isn't even funny how ridiculous that is.

And that's called gameplay mechancis.

There's also an extra motivation for Vegeta selling his soul to Babidi - Goku's only got one day on Earth. So, Vegeta sees Goku's SSJ2 powers are greater than his own... he doesn't have the time to go train or anything to get stronger normally....that guy Babidi possessed got a lot of strength... hmm...

So, it's not that possession is the only way for Vegeta to catch up, it's that possession is the only way for Vegeta to catch up in 24 hours.

Exactly.

One of Onikage's reasons Vegeta wasn't SSJ2 was the implication that Goku hadn't used SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan level power previously. But let's not forget that Vegeta started off significantly weaker than Cell Games Gohan or Goku as it was. There's nothing to say that in those seven years he'd fully matched their power. And there's also a considerable gap in power between SSJ1 and SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan's levels.

Which means that Vegeta could be anywhere in between there, or maybe even equal to that level. He wouldn't need to sense or know Goku's full power to know that there's a very high chance Goku is stronger than him. Goku started out stronger than him. Goku was training while dead. Both of these are factors in Goku's favor. Vegeta may be egotistical and may let his pride cloud his judgement but he's not a complete idiot.

[Kid Trunks]

I wouldn't exactly say that. It does, after all, push him into selling his soul to match Goku.

Vegeta doesn't flip out righ there, he doesn't become his normal 'GOD DAMN YOU KAKAROTTO! self' when he sees Goku's power. He's a lot calmer than one would expect if Goku had acheived a level of power that he had not. You saw his reaction to SSJ3 later on. He was as much pissed that Goku had beaten him to a new level of power as he was that he'd held it back and led him to believe he'd had a chance.

Just because he didn't go apeshit doesn't mean it didn't bother him. It was the key reason why Vegeta became a Majin. It made him decide to sell his soul. What more evidence do you need? No amout of having a hissy fit could compare to a guy selling his soul.

I don't really think Toriyama put as much thought into the manga as he gets credit for. Put simply, if something isn't outright stated, it didn't happen. If Vegeta really was a SSJ2 before the Majin charm we would have have seen it somewhere.

And by that train of thought, if he hadn't reached it yet some comment would have been made following the Majin power-up that he used that power to obtain the second level. No such claim was made, no refrence to how he reached the level was given. If Toriyama had intended the power-up to be the cause of Vegeta reaching the second level it would have been explicitly stated that way.

A comment isn't needed to confirm Vegeta is a SSJ2, because of the charm its explicitly shown.

One of Onikage's reasons Vegeta wasn't SSJ2 was the implication that Goku hadn't used SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan level power previously. But let's not forget that Vegeta started off significantly weaker than Cell Games Gohan or Goku as it was. There's nothing to say that in those seven years he'd fully matched their power. And there's also a considerable gap in power between SSJ1 and SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan's levels.

That means nothing. When Goku was a SSJ and Vegeta wasn't, Vegeta came back 3 years later more powerful than Goku.

[Onikage725]

Why is it out of the possibility that Vegeta is a weak SSJ2? Vegeta even says to Goku when Gohan's turn comes up, "He's been slacking off, we're stronger than he is now." (Again, pardon paraphrasing.) So, Vegeta's an SSJ2 and despite being domesticated, he does train, so he's stronger than Buu Saga Gohan but weaker than Cell Games Gohan.

But there's also Gohan's general Buu Saga suck-factor where he seemingly forgets that, hey, he *can* go SSJ2 (outside of showing off for Kibito). Gohan fights Dabura half-assed at SSJ1. When Vegeta is yelling at him for being a wuss later (actually he's pretty much declaring everyone a wuss), Gohan even reflects on how he failed to try hard enough and that's why Piccolo and Kuririn where still stone. You yourself just pointed out that Buu Saga Gohan < Cell Games Gohan. Hell, Gohan doesn't even bother going SSJ2 against Buu.
So I ask you-
1. Since when does Vegeta declaring he's better than someone automatically make it so? Vegeta constantly declares himself better than everyone.
2. How does Vegeta being stronger than an unfocused SSJ1 make him automatically SSJ2? Gohan, even weak, went to blows with Dabura. Vegeta at SSJ1 would have been stronger and far more focused and violent than what we saw out of Gohan- he could very well have taken down Dabura without needing to go SSJ2.

Also, recall that even when Gohan went SSJ2, Vegeta states that he has less power even than when he fought Cell. To further back that up, Babidi is impressed with Gohan's ki, but not overly so. However, when he measures Goku at SSJ1, against Yakon, he cannot believe that anyone on Earth would have that level of power. So one could surmise that Goku at SSJ1 was capable of channeling more ki than what Gohan displayed at the tournament as SSJ2. And if Goku was, why is it hard to assume Vegeta may be?

And two things on points brought up earlier- First on Gohan not sensing the SSJ2 transformations from the Majin Vegeta fight. Wasn't Gohan in the spaceship by then? That doesn't necessarily count as a negative. I mean, Dabura powered up to beyond Perfect Cell levels inside his chamber and noone knew until he appeared before them. Maybe Babidi's ship has magical wards or dampners in place.
And second, I've heard that Vegeta was likely SSJ2 because he was comfortable with the form and therefore had mastered it. Yet I've also heard that other characters likely missed his initial change. Short of writing a fanfic on Vegeta's further adventures in space, in order to master the form that means he would need to spend extensive time changing into it, using it, channeling his power. And since the RoSat was closed to him, and he seemingly did most of his training in his gravity chamber at Capsule Corp... see where I'm going with this? Is it theoretically possible that he went offworld, or maybe got permission to chill in the Pendulum Room? Sure. But are we told anything of the sort? No.

And by that train of thought, if he hadn't reached it yet some comment would have been made following the Majin power-up that he used that power to obtain the second level. No such claim was made, no refrence to how he reached the level was given. If Toriyama had intended the power-up to be the cause of Vegeta reaching the second level it would have been explicitly stated that way.

I would contend that the only comment we did get was in reference to the charm. We hear nothing of Vegeta's ascension before hand. Goku claims he's going to end the fight quickly. Vegeta goes level 2, and Goku surprisingly corrects himself. It is the only comment made on the matter, aside from Gohan being amazed at the level they're fighting at, and Piccolo also adding amazement that Vegeta has "broken through the Super Saiyan wall."

I'm reminded of a Dr. Cox line from Scrubs. "Newbie, do you happen to know what a zebra is? It's a diagnosis of a ridiculously obscure disease when it's much more likely that the patient has a common illness presenting with uncommon symptoms. In other words, if you hear hoof-beats, you just go ahead and think horsies, not zebras. Mm'kay, Mr. Silly Bear?"

In context with this discussion- if we see a magical transformation draw out a character's dormant power, see him make a startling new change, and get shock/awe commentary on the matter, we can go ahead and assume they are related (horsies). This as opposed to coming up with hypothetical training scenarios to support this transformation having happened a few times before off screen with no indication (zebras).

[Horgus]

But there's also Gohan's general Buu Saga suck-factor where he seemingly forgets that, hey, he *can* go SSJ2 (outside of showing off for Kibito). Gohan fights Dabura half-assed at SSJ1. When Vegeta is yelling at him for being a wuss later (actually he's pretty much declaring everyone a wuss), Gohan even reflects on how he failed to try hard enough and that's why Piccolo and Kuririn where still stone. You yourself just pointed out that Buu Saga Gohan < Cell Games Gohan. Hell, Gohan doesn't even bother going SSJ2 against Buu.

I really disagree with you here. Gohan couldn't have beaten Cell at SSj1, so why do you think he could go evenly with Dabura who is at least equal to Cell? When Gohan at the height of his training fought Cell, he did well but would have been destroyed at SSj1.

He HAD to have gone SSj2 to have fought evenly with Dabura.

So I ask you-
1. Since when does Vegeta declaring he's better than someone automatically make it so? Vegeta constantly declares himself better than everyone.
2. How does Vegeta being stronger than an unfocused SSJ1 make him automatically SSJ2? Gohan, even weak, went to blows with Dabura. Vegeta at SSJ1 would have been stronger and far more focused and violent than what we saw out of Gohan- he could very well have taken down Dabura without needing to go SSJ2.

Whether or not *Vegeta* could have taken down Dabura at SSj1 is certainly up for debate, but I think looking back to how Cell dominated everybody except for Gohan and Goku, (and that wasn't his full power)
and how far behind Vegeta was, I think Vegeta would have probably had to have gone SSj2 to beat Dabura.

Also, recall that even when Gohan went SSJ2, Vegeta states that he has less power even than when he fought Cell. To further back that up, Babidi is impressed with Gohan's ki, but not overly so. However, when he measures Goku at SSJ1, against Yakon, he cannot believe that anyone on Earth would have that level of power. So one could surmise that Goku at SSJ1 was capable of channeling more ki than what Gohan displayed at the tournament as SSJ2. And if Goku was, why is it hard to assume Vegeta may be?

I may be wrong, but if I remember correctly Babidi never even comments on Gohan's power. He takes the full jar of energy containing all of Gohan's power at SSj2, which coincidentally fills out half of Majin Buu's strength. (which may translate to Gohan being fully half of Buu's strength at SSj2)
He never comments on Gohan being strong, only thinking that they had to drain a lot of people to get that power. He DOES say that Goku is strong and is surprised that he's from earth, but not Gohan.

[Rocketman]

So I ask you-
1. Since when does Vegeta declaring he's better than someone automatically make it so? Vegeta constantly declares himself better than everyone.
2. How does Vegeta being stronger than an unfocused SSJ1 make him automatically SSJ2? Gohan, even weak, went to blows with Dabura. Vegeta at SSJ1 would have been stronger and far more focused and violent than what we saw out of Gohan- he could very well have taken down Dabura without needing to go SSJ2.

Both are answered by the same thing - Vegeta says that before Gohan's fight with Dabura, but after he went SSJ2 at the tournament. Vegeta senses Gohan's SSJ2 strength, and still groups himself with SSJ2 Goku as being Gohan's superior. How many times does Vegeta say he's better after sensing a truly superior power?

Also, recall that even when Gohan went SSJ2, Vegeta states that he has less power even than when he fought Cell. To further back that up, Babidi is impressed with Gohan's ki, but not overly so. However, when he measures Goku at SSJ1, against Yakon, he cannot believe that anyone on Earth would have that level of power. So one could surmise that Goku at SSJ1 was capable of channeling more ki than what Gohan displayed at the tournament as SSJ2. And if Goku was, why is it hard to assume Vegeta may be?

That's silly. Babidi wasn't overly impressed with Gohan's ki because he thought it resulted from Spopovich and Yamu killing hundreds or thousands of humans. He even asks Dabura where the Majin dudes got that ki from (Dabura says they didn't say), and then wishes he had asked them before killing them.

Compare to Goku, who Babidi sees put out this huge amount of power right in front of him.

And two things on points brought up earlier- First on Gohan not sensing the SSJ2 transformations from the Majin Vegeta fight. Wasn't Gohan in the spaceship by then? That doesn't necessarily count as a negative. I mean, Dabura powered up to beyond Perfect Cell levels inside his chamber and noone knew until he appeared before them. Maybe Babidi's ship has magical wards or dampners in place.

Even if the ship does have dampers, they were outside Babidi's ship for a long time, but Gohan only realized his dad and Vegeta were SSJ2s when the meter filled up.

And second, I've heard that Vegeta was likely SSJ2 because he was comfortable with the form and therefore had mastered it. Yet I've also heard that other characters likely missed his initial change. Short of writing a fanfic on Vegeta's further adventures in space, in order to master the form that means he would need to spend extensive time changing into it, using it, channeling his power. And since the RoSat was closed to him, and he seemingly did most of his training in his gravity chamber at Capsule Corp... see where I'm going with this? Is it theoretically possible that he went offworld, or maybe got permission to chill in the Pendulum Room? Sure. But are we told anything of the sort? No.

Again, Goten and Trunks went Super Saiyan when they sparred prior to the Buu Saga and nobody picked up that they were SSJs. Nobody sensed Goku's ascension to SSJ3 or his subsequent uses of the form despite it being stated an SSJ3's power could be sensed even from the Supreme Kai's world.

Just because he didn't go apeshit doesn't mean it didn't bother him. It was the key reason why Vegeta became a Majin. It made him decide to sell his soul. What more evidence do you need? No amout of having a hissy fit could compare to a guy selling his soul.

I'm going to call a terminology quibble here. Vegeta didn't "sell his soul". Babidi isn't the devil, or in any way associated with the afterlife. Vegeta didn't go to hell because of the Majin incident, but because the vast majority of his life was spent murdering and destroying.

That means nothing. When Goku was a SSJ and Vegeta wasn't, Vegeta came back 3 years later more powerful than Goku.

Than a Goku having a heart attack. Piccolo just says Vegeta may be stronger.

[Kid Trunks]

Just because he didn't go apeshit doesn't mean it didn't bother him. It was the key reason why Vegeta became a Majin. It made him decide to sell his soul. What more evidence do you need? No amout of having a hissy fit could compare to a guy selling his soul.

I'm going to call a terminology quibble here. Vegeta didn't "sell his soul". Babidi isn't the devil, or in any way associated with the afterlife. Vegeta didn't go to hell because of the Majin incident, but because the vast majority of his life was spent murdering and destroying.

Ok then. Submitted his will? Forfeited his freedom? Whatever, you get what I'm saying.

Than a Goku having a heart attack. Piccolo just says Vegeta may be stronger.

Piccolo spent 3 years training with Goku, he knew how strong Goku was without the virus.

[Rocketman]

Ok then. Submitted his will? Forfeited his freedom? Whatever, you get what I'm saying.

I do, but those are much smaller concessions, especially since he immediately overpowered Babidi's commands and did whatever he wanted to.

Piccolo spent 3 years training with Goku, he knew how strong Goku was without the virus.

Yes, and he says Vegeta may be stronger, not that he is.

[Onikage725]

He HAD to have gone SSj2 to have fought evenly with Dabura.

Yeah, the same way Goku went SSJ2 to fight Cell. Oh wait...
If Cell hadn't been an artificially created freak of nature, Goku would have slain him with the Shunkan Idou Kamehameha. Hell, even Vegeta inflicted significant damage with his Final Flash. Let's go back to the Saiyan Saga- when these characters focus their ki into their signature attack, their effective level of power rises exponentially for that brief moment.
And while Dabura could heal his eyes, his level of regeneration is probably at best no greater than Piccolo's. Unless he could heal like Cell or Buu, any of the SSJ1's from the Cell Saga could have theoretically killed him with a well placed shot.

I may be wrong, but if I remember correctly Babidi never even comments on Gohan's power. He takes the full jar of energy containing all of Gohan's power at SSj2, which coincidentally fills out half of Majin Buu's strength. (which may translate to Gohan being fully half of Buu's strength at SSj2)
He never comments on Gohan being strong, only thinking that they had to drain a lot of people to get that power. He DOES say that Goku is strong and is surprised that he's from earth, but not Gohan.

No, you're right about the jar. I had forgotten that. However, we still have Vegeta saying that Gohan at SSJ2 was weaker than he had been when fighting Cell. We also hear that Dabura is at least on par with Perfect Cell (not certain if that's supposed to be Super Perfect or not). And we have Gohan at SSJ1 carrying a fight with him. In addition to what I said above, I would just say that Gohan fighting well at SSJ1 could be a comfort thing. He mastered the SSJ1 state before, and for all we know only used SSJ2 once or twice (counting movie 9). Similar to how Goku opted for SSJ2 over 3 against Vegeta, and when he did use 3 on Kid Buu (while alive) he ran out of ki due to not knowing the limits of the form. Gohan was probably more comfortable at SSJ1. This especially makes sense when you factor that Gohan didn't actually hurt Dabura, just managed to keep pace with him.

Both are answered by the same thing - Vegeta says that before Gohan's fight with Dabura, but after he went SSJ2 at the tournament. Vegeta senses Gohan's SSJ2 strength, and still groups himself with SSJ2 Goku as being Gohan's superior. How many times does Vegeta say he's better after sensing a truly superior power?

My point is that Gohan's SSJ2 strength was said to be weaker than when he fought Cell, yet at SSJ1 he fights Dabura (said to be even or stronger than Cell). Hell, Kaioshin was even able to contain Gohan at the tournament. So Vegeta wouldn't NEED to be SSJ2 to think himself superior to Gohan. He keeps talking about how Gohan has been slacking off, not about himself "ascending." And it isn't like he would even need to, necessarily. There isn't a specific cap to a given form's power. Want proof? Look at the fight with Pui Pui.
1. Kaioshin says he could kill someone like Freeza with ONE blow.
2. Pui Pui scared Kaioshin.
3. Vegeta wrecked Pui Pui about as hard as Kaioshin claims he coulda wrecked Freeza. This is without even needing to power up in any way.
So Buu Saga Vegeta, at base, completely casual, is stronger than SSJ Goku was against Freeza. Like, a lot stronger.
Since we all agree Vegeta kept training, why should we assume he would stop improving as SSJ? Why should we assume the only way he could gain strength was if he transformed?

Even if the ship does have dampers, they were outside Babidi's ship for a long time, but Gohan only realized his dad and Vegeta were SSJ2s when the meter filled up.

Hence the dampener idea. If you can't sense ki accurately when inside the ship, then it really doesn't matter how long two guys stand around outside the ship.

Again, Goten and Trunks went Super Saiyan when they sparred prior to the Buu Saga and nobody picked up that they were SSJs. Nobody sensed Goku's ascension to SSJ3 or his subsequent uses of the form despite it being stated an SSJ3's power could be sensed even from the Supreme Kai's world.

Goten and Trunks- why are we comparing SSJ1 to SSJ2 again? Your point about them is fully valid, but that doesn't change the fact that Vegeta going lvl 2 would be ridiculously more noticeable. Hell, Vegeta going level 1 would be more noticeable.

Goku SSJ3- Maybe the story is inconsistent here, but Goku was in heaven. We could debate the logistics of people not noticing his change, but it doesn't change that Vegeta going lvl 2 Bulma's basement should trip more senses on Earth than Goku transforming from another plane of existence. Maybe they could sense SSJ3 Goku later on because they were actively looking?

I'm going to call a terminology quibble here. Vegeta didn't "sell his soul". Babidi isn't the devil, or in any way associated with the afterlife. Vegeta didn't go to hell because of the Majin incident, but because the vast majority of his life was spent murdering and destroying.

I don't think Kid Trunks is saying he went to hell because of the Majin incident (and I know I'm not). Call a semantics disagreement if you want, but it doesn't change the point- Vegeta, who lives and breathes by his pride and ego and self-reliance, willingly allowed himself to fall under magical possession. It was clearly an act of desperation. And sure, he fought off the mind control. But it isn't like he knew he would be able to when going in to the whole thing.

[Rocketman]

My point is that Gohan's SSJ2 strength was said to be weaker than when he fought Cell, yet at SSJ1 he fights Dabura (said to be even or stronger than Cell). Hell, Kaioshin was even able to contain Gohan at the tournament. So Vegeta wouldn't NEED to be SSJ2 to think himself superior to Gohan. He keeps talking about how Gohan has been slacking off, not about himself "ascending." And it isn't like he would even need to, necessarily. There isn't a specific cap to a given form's power. Want proof? Look at the fight with Pui Pui.
1. Kaioshin says he could kill someone like Freeza with ONE blow.
2. Pui Pui scared Kaioshin.
3. Vegeta wrecked Pui Pui about as hard as Kaioshin claims he coulda wrecked Freeza. This is without even needing to power up in any way.
So Buu Saga Vegeta, at base, completely casual, is stronger than SSJ Goku was against Freeza. Like, a lot stronger.
Since we all agree Vegeta kept training, why should we assume he would stop improving as SSJ? Why should we assume the only way he could gain strength was if he transformed?

Because there was an insane difference between SSJ1 Gohan and SSJ2 at the Cell Games. Remember that SSJ2 Gohan lost half his power when Super Perfect Cell blasted him, yet was still able to overpower SPC's Super Kamehameha and completely destroy him (granted, he got a lot of help from Vegeta's distracting attack).

So, even if Gohan's lost half of his SSJ2 power, he's still far beyond any SSJ1. I just don't think Vegeta could train that much, to push his Super Saiyan state beyond Gohan's SSJ2, especially not in the living world. The forms do have limits, or the characters wouldn't bother with SSJ2 or 3. The Law of Diminishing Returns applies to Super Saiyans as well; recall that Goku said "beyond a certain point, pushing your body harder is just torture, not training" when he declined to go in the Time Chamber a second time.

Hence the dampener idea. If you can't sense ki accurately when inside the ship, then it really doesn't matter how long two guys stand around outside the ship.

This one's my fault for being unclear. I meant "they" as in Supreme Kai, Gohan, Dabura and Babidi. Babidi teleports them all out of the ship so it won't be destroyed, so they're all chilling in the open air, yet Goku and Vegeta's power goes unnoticed.

Goten and Trunks- why are we comparing SSJ1 to SSJ2 again?

I believe my main point with them was discounting Gohan's ability to sense Vegeta ascend, as he doesn't even pick up on his kid brother transforming.

Goku SSJ3- Maybe the story is inconsistent here, but Goku was in heaven. We could debate the logistics of people not noticing his change, but it doesn't change that Vegeta going lvl 2 Bulma's basement should trip more senses on Earth than Goku transforming from another plane of existence. Maybe they could sense SSJ3 Goku later on because they were actively looking?

No, it's pretty clear that Goku simply puts out that much power. Gohan was in the middle of training with the Z Sword on Supreme Kai's planet, and he, the Kai and Kibito all feel Goku's power. The same Kai who couldn't tell the powers of the Saiyans standing right next to him on Earth senses Goku's power outside of the mortal universe.

But nobody felt it during the seven years.

I don't think Kid Trunks is saying he went to hell because of the Majin incident (and I know I'm not). Call a semantics disagreement if you want, but it doesn't change the point- Vegeta, who lives and breathes by his pride and ego and self-reliance, willingly allowed himself to fall under magical possession. It was clearly an act of desperation. And sure, he fought off the mind control. But it isn't like he knew he would be able to when going in to the whole thing.

I acknowledge that it was an act of, if not desperation, something close to it. I just think that 'desperation' came from Vegeta wanting to finally defeat Goku, and only having 24 hours to do it in, not from him being an entire Super Saiyan level behind (well, 2 levels behind, but he didn't know that).

[Horgus]

Yeah, the same way Goku went SSJ2 to fight Cell. Oh wait...
If Cell hadn't been an artificially created freak of nature, Goku would have slain him with the Shunkan Idou Kamehameha. Hell, even Vegeta inflicted significant damage with his Final Flash.

You seem to forget that when Goku fought Cell, he still wasn't using his full power. When Gohan went SSj2, Cell tried to hit him a few times, and then raised his power again. Although we can't know for sure, I think it's pretty clear that he would have beaten Gohan if he hadn't gone SSj2.

No, you're right about the jar. I had forgotten that. However, we still have Vegeta saying that Gohan at SSJ2 was weaker than he had been when fighting Cell. We also hear that Dabura is at least on par with Perfect Cell (not certain if that's supposed to be Super Perfect or not). And we have Gohan at SSJ1 carrying a fight with him. In addition to what I said above, I would just say that Gohan fighting well at SSJ1 could be a comfort thing. He mastered the SSJ1 state before, and for all we know only used SSJ2 once or twice (counting movie 9). Similar to how Goku opted for SSJ2 over 3 against Vegeta, and when he did use 3 on Kid Buu (while alive) he ran out of ki due to not knowing the limits of the form. Gohan was probably more comfortable at SSJ1. This especially makes sense when you factor that Gohan didn't actually hurt Dabura, just managed to keep pace with him.

Again, Gohan had to have been at least at SSj2 or he would have been losing badly when Dabura went to his full strength. This all plays back to how strong Cell was. Cell could take on anything short of SSj2, and the ease with which he knocked Vegeta away with 1 hit proves that.

That aside, I think Dabura would have eventually won, even with Gohan's small power advantage. He was making Gohan look like a complete amateur.

3. Vegeta wrecked Pui Pui about as hard as Kaioshin claims he coulda wrecked Freeza. This is without even needing to power up in any way.
So Buu Saga Vegeta, at base, completely casual, is stronger than SSJ Goku was against Freeza. Like, a lot stronger.
Since we all agree Vegeta kept training, why should we assume he would stop improving as SSJ? Why should we assume the only way he could gain strength was if he transformed?

And as an aside, I don't know how you can infer that PuiPui was anywhere near as powerful as Freeza, especially if a difference of 10g's is supposed to form a huge advantage for PuiPui. I always got that he was as powerful as Kiwi or one of Freeza's henchman.

I think that Kaioshin being scared of Puipui comes from Kaioshin's lack of battle experience, but then again it all comes down to interpretation.

[Xyex]

You seem to forget that when Goku fought Cell, he still wasn't using his full power. When Gohan went SSj2, Cell tried to hit him a few times, and then raised his power again. Although we can't know for sure, I think it's pretty clear that he would have beaten Gohan if he hadn't gone SSj2.

Actually, I believe Gohan could have won that fight without SSJ2. Not as easily as he did with it, but fairly easily still. I believe he was stronger than Cell already, just as an SSJ, because Goku wasn't expecting the SSJ2 transformation. He was just expecting Gohan's full power.

Again, Gohan had to have been at least at SSj2 or he would have been losing badly when Dabura went to his full strength. This all plays back to how strong Cell was. Cell could take on anything short of SSj2, and the ease with which he knocked Vegeta away with 1 hit proves that.

SSJ1 Gohan was (not counting his full 'anger induced' power) equal with Cell. Vegeta was signicantly weaker than Goku, who was weaker than Cell, of course Super Perfect Cell could slap him away with one hit. But Dabura's power was closer to Perfect Cell's than Super Perfect. Gohan was only SSJ1 against Dabura.

No, it's pretty clear that Goku simply puts out that much power. Gohan was in the middle of training with the Z Sword on Supreme Kai's planet, and he, the Kai and Kibito all feel Goku's power. The same Kai who couldn't tell the powers of the Saiyans standing right next to him on Earth senses Goku's power outside of the mortal universe.

But nobody felt it during the seven years.

Exactly.

I don't think Kid Trunks is saying he went to hell because of the Majin incident (and I know I'm not). Call a semantics disagreement if you want, but it doesn't change the point- Vegeta, who lives and breathes by his pride and ego and self-reliance, willingly allowed himself to fall under magical possession. It was clearly an act of desperation. And sure, he fought off the mind control. But it isn't like he knew he would be able to when going in to the whole thing.

Yeah. It was an act of desperation. He had one last chance to beat Goku. A chance that would be gone forever in just 24 hours. Add to this that Goku was now busy protecting the Earth, which meant he had no time to be fighting Vegeta, and you have one pressured Saiya-jin. He had 24 hours to fight Goku, he knew he was weaker than Goku, and Goku had no reason to fight him.

Best solution? Go Majin, of course. It would give him the power boost he'd need to contend with Goku and it would force Goku to fight him. It was a win win. And, uh, not know he could over ride the mind control? This is Vegeta we're talking about. He doesn't boast just to hear his own voice, he believes everything he says. Why the hell would he not believe he could over ride the mind control?

Just because he didn't go apeshit doesn't mean it didn't bother him. It was the key reason why Vegeta became a Majin. It made him decide to sell his soul. What more evidence do you need? No amout of having a hissy fit could compare to a guy selling his soul.

He didn't sell his soul. He didn't sell anything. He didn't give up anything. Hell, I doubt he even saw it as getting help at beating Goku. He saw it as a way back to his old self, plain and simple. The old Vegeta that had once been Goku's equal. Granted, he was deluding himself about it, but hey, mid-life crisis, they're not always logical.

A comment isn't needed to confirm Vegeta is a SSJ2, because of the charm its explicitly shown.

Say what? Yes, the Majin power-up is shown but it is never refrenced as being Vegeta's trigger to going SSJ2. The power-up is not shown to cause Vegeta's first SSJ2 transformation. He simply, easily, and willfully switches to the form completely naturally. In every other instance of something causing the transformation we are told that this was the trigger. Why would it be any different for Vegeta?

So Buu Saga Vegeta, at base, completely casual, is stronger than SSJ Goku was against Freeza. Like, a lot stronger.

This, more than anything else said, has convinced me to stop participating in this thread from this point on. When arguements for something become more absurd than the topic being argued you know it's time to walk away.

[caejones]

I'm getting the feeling Toriyama intentionally didn't explain this point. Although I'm pretty sure it wasn't to make us argue about it.

Hmm. 10Gs was casual for Saiyan saga Goku, was it not? And Goku during that fight was what, a twenty fourth of a thousandth of Freeza's full power? Hmm.

[Onikage725]

This, more than anything else said, has convinced me to stop participating in this thread from this point on. When arguements for something become more absurd than the topic being argued you know it's time to walk away.

I won't comment on the rest because at this point we are all pretty much going in circles and should agree to disagree. On this though, do you or Horgus have any proof? I'm fairly certain I cited evidence from the series.

*checks post*

Yea I did.

Kaioshin basically referred to Freeza as a pathetic scrub.
When Pui Pui started showing off, Kaioshin freaked out and started talking about teamwork. And Vegeta still effortlessly takes Pui Pui down. Again, Kaioshin said he could have taken Freeza out in one hit. Not "could have probably beaten in a fight." One. Single. Blow. So unless he's lying out the ass, he's at least as strong as SSJ Trunks when he first showed up.

So someone as strong as a run of the mill SSJ1 would come face to face with someone of, as Horgus put it, Kewi's level and be afraid? THAT is the single most ridiculous assumption I've heard in this thread.

Do you have a conflicting quote or specific flaw in the evidence? If so I'd love to hear it. That's the point of a debate. But if not, I take offense to the implication of stupidity based on a gut feeling of "Nahhh Pui Pui didn't seem that badass."

Horgus and caejones, being comfortable in "only" 10gs has nothing to do with power- put Goku in a 400g environment and suddenly Vegeta would have an advantage. Gravity training is similar in theory to weighted training. You get used to a higher level, and you find yourself that much faster, stronger, and more durable when restored to normal levels. And the only thing they say on Pui Pui is that his homeworld was 10 times earth gravity. They failed because they didn't know Vegeta had gone through intense gravity training, not because Pui Pui "could only handle..."

[Horgus]

So someone as strong as a run of the mill SSJ1 would come face to face with someone of, as Horgus put it, Kewi's level and be afraid? THAT is the single most ridiculous assumption I've heard in this thread.

Do you have a conflicting quote or specific flaw in the evidence? If so I'd love to hear it. That's the point of a debate. But if not, I take offense to the implication of stupidity based on a gut feeling of "Nahhh Pui Pui didn't seem that badass."

But thats just the point, we don't know how strong PuiPui is, it was never stated other than Kaioshin wet himself and said that everyone should fight him together.

Now, granted that could imply he was in the area of strength as Freeza, it could IF not for the 10g difference supposedly pushing the fight in PuiPui's favor.

There is no stupid 'gut feeling.' There's simple logic, if 10g's was supposed to have created a great difference between them, there's no way PuiPui would have been that strong in the first place. Even you can't argue that.
We must consider that Kaioshin wasn't a fighter, and didn't have a comparable fighting sense to the other Z fighters.

Anyway, we'll probably have to agree to disagree, as this thread has veered far offtopic.

[USSJed]

On a different note, I seem to recall an interview with Mr. Toriyama where he was asked what power level SSJ2 Gohan (Cell games) would be, and he replied 300,000,000. Has anyone else heard of that?

Has anyone unearthed that interview? I truely hate the PL's I posted, but they do seem to make sense. That interview could be the difference between decent levels and these insane power levels in the trillions that a lot of people(myself included) believe.