Dabura

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:54 am

He himself states that the only reason he survived that explosion was because his core survived. That's why him regenerating after getting his head blown off was a plot hole.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:21 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:He himself states that the only reason he survived that explosion was because his core survived. That's why him regenerating after getting his head blown off was a plot hole.

Okay then. Thanks. XD

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:42 am

"Suupaa saiyajin 2 no Gohan to hobo gokaku no tatakai wo kurihirogeru." In other words, "He put up a fight almost equal to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan"

Maybe the reason why the lightning is fully absent in SSJ2 form is because Gohan was weaker than before. I would like to know Herms' opinion about this.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:35 am

Maybe the reason why the lightning is fully absent in SSJ2 form is because Gohan was weaker than before. I would like to know Herms' opinion about this.

Except the lightning was just present at the tournament when he showed the form to Kibito.

Face it, the Daizenshuu is wrong on this point. There's no way around it. Gohan was not an SSJ2 during his fight with Dabura.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:13 am

Xyex wrote:Face it, the Daizenshuu is wrong on this point. There's no way around it.

I could think of a way around it: Toriyama was getting a bit sloppy, toward the end of the series.
Sure, compared to the anime, he had the precision of an atomic clock, but that doesn't mean the Super Saiyan auras were always consistent. I remember some cases where he apparently just forgot about them (and there would be the Super Saiyan 3 thing... that sure changed a lot).

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:55 am

It depends on who the author asked, if you want my opinion. Did anyone at Toei actually grasp what SSJ2 was? I mean, it's nonexistent in GT.

@ Olivier: We're talking about an entire fight here, and again while confronting Babidi and Dabura, and eventually Buu.

I could swallow that maybe Toriyama screwed up here or there, but to say that for two entire prominent sequences he forgot how to draw SSJ2? When the first fight lead to a battle between two properly drawn SSJ2's, and the second sequence was during it?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:19 am

Onikage725 wrote:I could swallow that maybe Toriyama screwed up here or there, but to say that for two entire prominent sequences he forgot how to draw SSJ2? When the first fight lead to a battle between two properly drawn SSJ2's, and the second sequence was during it?

I could see that.
'Not saying that's what happened, but... well, I don't think Toriyama cared that much, at that point...

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:36 am

I believe that *in general* but every other SSJ2 scene was done properly. And What I was getting at above is that he was doing the Goku vs Majin Vegeta fight (all lightninged-up) just after and during the prominent Gohan scenes. So it'd be realllllly odd for the thought to not cross his mind once.

I think it's far more likely that Gohan, who had used SSJ2 all of twice in his whole life (three times if you count movie 9) and had trouble motivating himself, probably defaulted to the SSJ state he had completely mastered in all ways. It was less of a strain on him and it no longer affected his attitude. As was said before, he specifically says that hr is reluctant to use his full power while trying to recall how he was against Cell. If you think back to the Cell Games,Gohan believes his arrogance got his father killed. If he'd just done away with Cell at the start, his dad wouldn't have had to die.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:37 am

Onikage725 wrote:It depends on who the author asked, if you want my opinion. Did anyone at Toei actually grasp what SSJ2 was? I mean, it's nonexistent in GT.

I doubt it. Goku and Vegeta switch between SSJ1 and 2 several times during their fight.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:43 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:It depends on who the author asked, if you want my opinion. Did anyone at Toei actually grasp what SSJ2 was? I mean, it's nonexistent in GT.
I doubt it. Goku and Vegeta switch between SSJ1 and 2 several times during their fight.

Honestly, I half-think Toei was trying to say Goku went SSJ2 against Paikuhan, and just didn't know how to draw it. It's like, without Toriyama to draw a lightening bolt as a reference, they just couldn't be arsed to do it. Was the effect too costly?

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:30 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
Honestly, I half-think Toei was trying to say Goku went SSJ2 against Paikuhan, and just didn't know how to draw it. It's like, without Toriyama to draw a lightening bolt as a reference, they just couldn't be arsed to do it. Was the effect too costly?

I always thought Paikuhan was a great way to explain how Goku made such a leap while he was dead.

If I'm not mistaken, he made a remark about how Goku was increasing in strength just by fighting the other, galactic warriors.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:47 pm

Another idea we haven't explored is "what do Goku and Vegeta consider "close to Cell's strength" at this point?" Think about it: they must have had PLs close to the billions by that point, so what's a million or ten here or there when you can go SSJ3 and dwarf everything anyway?

In other words:

Goku: "Cell was at 500 million, and you say Dabura's at 50 million? 500 comes after 50, right?"
Kaioshin: "Well, technically not right after 50 million, but yes, it does."
Goku: "There you have it. Gohan already beat someone who was about equal to Dabura's strength!"
Kaioshin: "LIEK ZOMG, NO WAI!"
Gohan: **Goes along with it**

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:24 am

Xyex wrote: Face it, the Daizenshuu is wrong on this point. There's no way around it. Gohan was not an SSJ2 during his fight with Dabura.

Gohan's situation in the tournament and his fight with Dabra were different, stop comparing two different situations. I'm not trying to insult you but like I said before, I want to know herms' opinion not yours. Can you translate or understand japanese 100%? do you have Daizenshuu and Dragon Ball Landmark? why argue on something you are not fully or 100% aware?

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:23 am

Guidebooks are irrelevant if we can simply analyze the actual manga.

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:39 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Guidebooks are irrelevant if we can simply analyze the actual manga.

The point is most of us here cannot accurately translate the japanese guidebooks.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:04 pm

Nor can most translate the Japanese manga. Does that mean they can't discuss it now?

Regardless, the line from the Daizenshuu has already been translated (and I can read for myself that it claims Gohan fought as a Super Saiyan 2), and Xyex is saying the manga itself proves that claim wrong. Why would he need to be able to understand Japanese to argue something like that?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:10 pm

I could think of a way around it: Toriyama was getting a bit sloppy, toward the end of the series.
Sure, compared to the anime, he had the precision of an atomic clock, but that doesn't mean the Super Saiyan auras were always consistent. I remember some cases where he apparently just forgot about them (and there would be the Super Saiyan 3 thing... that sure changed a lot).

That's HUGE stretch though. There was never an issue with SSJ2 at any other point in the manga. Ever. So why would it suddenly not be there for two full major sections? Especially when one of them is occuring at the same time as an ongoing SSJ2 battle?

It depends on who the author asked, if you want my opinion. Did anyone at Toei actually grasp what SSJ2 was? I mean, it's nonexistent in GT.

I don't think they did. I think they viewed it as some sort of 'full power SSJ' form and not an actual transformation.

Gohan's situation in the tournament and his fight with Dabra were different, stop comparing two different situations.

No, they're not. Not really. They are both instances of Gohan transforming. One depicts him both as an SSJ and then an SSJ2 while the other only as an SSJ. It's really just that simple.

I'm not trying to insult you but like I said before, I want to know herms' opinion not yours.

It doesn't matter who's opinion you want to know, I can post if it want to post. That's the way it works.

why argue on something you are not fully or 100% aware?

That's a good question, why do you argue stuff you don't know about?

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:51 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:He himself states that the only reason he survived that explosion was because his core survived. That's why him regenerating after getting his head blown off was a plot hole.

I always assumed that he just meant that he survived because a core of cells survived the explosion. (Well, that was how the Brazilian dub translated his explanation, and I was watching it, so it was only natural).

It happened to be located on his head, but there's nothing really special about it. Any other surviving part of his body potentially could do the same thing.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:10 pm

I know that everyone always pulls out the "he was on a ridiculously harsh schedule" bit when someone brings this up, but am I the only one that's a little disappointed that Mr. Toriyama forgets things like this in his life's work? Seriously, how do you foget the sparks!?

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:33 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:I know that everyone always pulls out the "he was on a ridiculously harsh schedule" bit when someone brings this up, but am I the only one that's a little disappointed that Mr. Toriyama forgets things like this in his life's work? Seriously, how do you foget the sparks!?

Because when people are demanding you rush your product out the door you don't have time to check your complete chapter over and over and over to make sure every little detail is in place.

That's exactly what happened to Sonic 2006. They were forcing the development team to hurry and get the game out by X-mas, not giving them time to check their work and we ended up with a glitchy game with awful controls.

Toriyama is fairly forgetful to begin with anyhow.