Exactly how strong were the Kaioshin?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:46 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:You don't think the idea of Goku using a Kaioken x10 for the entire battle is weird, Rocketman? I mean, Goku doesn't have the aura, so we know that much.

His eyes white out a couple times. And yeah, I do think it's weird. I just think it's less weird than the Bullshit Zenkai.

And there's the fact that the Daizenshuu's numbers CANNOT be correct no matter what. If Gokux20 was equal to 50% Freeza, then Gokux20+SuperKamehameha should've overpowered Freeza easily.

Do you think Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra?

No, because if he was, he would've crushed Dabura.

Because one way is the way Toriyama wrote it.

Yeah, but he also wrote that the thing that allowed Cell to regenerate was in his head.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:53 am

Rocketman wrote:Yeah, but he also wrote that the thing that allowed Cell to regenerate was in his head.

At the moment Goku appeared right in front of him ("S..Shimat-"), he had the Cell equivalent of a bowl movement and sent his 'core' into his lower half.

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:01 am

Yeah, but he also wrote that the thing that allowed Cell to regenerate was in his head.

Yeah, even the dub explanation made a little more sense than that, to me anyway.

Anyway, I've always assumed he was using the Kaio-ken throughout the battle. I don't have much to add, just casting my vote.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:42 am

Yeah, even the dub explanation made a little more sense than that, to me anyway.

That was 'as long as a single cell survives I can regenerate' right? I know I got that from somewhere but its what I use for him in my fanfiction.

And there's the fact that the Daizenshuu's numbers CANNOT be correct no matter what. If Gokux20 was equal to 50% Freeza, then Gokux20+SuperKamehameha should've overpowered Freeza easily.

Agreed, this is my main argument against them and why I created my own levels for that battle.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:18 am

Xyex wrote:Who killed Kargo? When did Future Trunks first go SSJ? Sometimes you just have to pick one and go with it.

Okay, but why should we pick the anime's version of events over the manga's?

Rocketman wrote:Yeah, but he also wrote that the thing that allowed Cell to regenerate was in his head.

Just because that was a plot hole doesn't mean it didn't happen. You can't pretend that Goku blew Cell's legs off instead, right?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:19 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:
Xyex wrote:Who killed Kargo? When did Future Trunks first go SSJ? Sometimes you just have to pick one and go with it.
Okay, but why should we pick the anime's version of events over the manga's?

Why should you take the manga's version of events over the anime's?

You take the one you like better and you run with it. Some like the manga better, often just because it's what Toriyama wrote, others perfer the anime better because they like its take on something.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:45 am

Xyex wrote:You take the one you like better and you run with it. Some like the manga better, often just because it's what Toriyama wrote, others prefer the anime better because they like its take on something.

Yeah, I usually prefer the manga's take on things, but as far as I'm concerned, Trunks became a Super Saiyan upon Gohan's death, just because the storytelling is so much better that way. And Piccolo and the humans tried to help Gohan in his Kamehameha struggle against Cell. And Goku had an SSj2-level "warm up" with Kid Buu before getting serious and going SSj3. Stuff like that.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:00 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Xyex wrote:You take the one you like better and you run with it. Some like the manga better, often just because it's what Toriyama wrote, others prefer the anime better because they like its take on something.
Yeah, I usually prefer the manga's take on things, but as far as I'm concerned, Trunks became a Super Saiyan upon Gohan's death, just because the storytelling is so much better that way. And Piccolo and the humans tried to help Gohan in his Kamehameha struggle against Cell. And Goku had an SSj2-level "warm up" with Kid Buu before getting serious and going SSj3. Stuff like that.

Heh, I don't really care for the SSJ2 warm-up. It was really fun to watch, but Goku did *way* too good. Compared to poor Vegeta, limited to his manga performance, who was completely outclassed.

And did I miss the quarterly "Freeza/SSJ Goku Daizenshuu power levels" debate? Dangit.

I will just say that I find the figures themselves suspect just because they fuck up Raditz. The series states that the Saibaimen are as strong as him. The series also shows Raditz shit himself on 3 seperate occasions when dealing with power levels above 1200. Then the Daizenshuu goes and lists the Saibaimen at 1200 and Raditz at 1500. Fuck, no. Kinda like what Rocketman mentioned above, the Daizenshuu wants us to believe that Freeza took Goku's Super Kamehameha with minor burns to a hand when Goku was as strong as him and the attack should have amplified further... But Raditz couldn't even *try* to defend against attacks they claim were under his level?

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:12 pm

Freeza's more skilled than Raditz, it would appear.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:27 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Heh, I don't really care for the SSJ2 warm-up. It was really fun to watch, but Goku did *way* too good. Compared to poor Vegeta, limited to his manga performance, who was completely outclassed.

Well, Buu has been known to adjust his own strength as his enemies get stronger. So I figure he went along with Goku, but then never bothered "bringing himself down' from SSj3-level power for Vegeta. So Vegeta was essentially getting his ass kicked by an SSj3.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:46 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:So Vegeta was essentially getting his ass kicked by an SSj3.

And he decided to jump in without transforming.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:56 pm

Rocketman wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:So Vegeta was essentially getting his ass kicked by an SSj3.
And he decided to jump in without transforming.

Which continues to puzzle me to today.

Travis Touchdown · Post by **Travis Touchdown** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:15 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:So Vegeta was essentially getting his ass kicked by an SSj3.
And he decided to jump in without transforming.
Which continues to puzzle me to today.

o.O Me too. At first I thought that just screwed that up in the anime, but it's like that in the manga as well. He was just brought back to life and his wounds were healed, so he could've gone round 2 as a SSJ2. It wouldn't have made much of a difference, but at least Vegeta would've been able to take more hits before being badly injured.

I mean, I don't think it would've made a huge difference. Vegeta would've still lost... badly, but it would've taken a bit longer and that was the idea; to buy time.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:55 pm

Xyex wrote:Why should you take the manga's version of events over the anime's?

Why not? It's the original work.

Xyex wrote:You take the one you like better and you run with it. Some like the manga better, often just because it's what Toriyama wrote, others perfer the anime better because they like its take on something.

How are we supposed to have a debate here if you're going back and forth between the anime and the manga? If we can't even agree on what exactly took place, we'll never get anywhere.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:54 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Well, Buu has been known to adjust his own strength as his enemies get stronger. So I figure he went along with Goku, but then never bothered "bringing himself down' from SSj3-level power for Vegeta. So Vegeta was essentially getting his ass kicked by an SSj3.

Kid Buu... not so much. At least not in the manga. It's been awhile since I sat through the anime version of the Buu Saga, but in the manga Kid Buu doesn't fuck around. He fights SSJ3 Goku on even footing, wrecks Vegeta and Mr. Buu, and then is destroyed by the Genki Dama. You see him throw taunts, but you never really get the sense that he is holding back.

Rocketman wrote: And he decided to jump in without transforming.

Oh I was so not talking about that inane bit. I was referring to the bit where he does go SSJ2, and Goku tries to power up SSJ3 and ends up depowering all together. That random moment in the anime where Goku runs outta juice but goes full power a few minutes later after Vegeta tries to fight Buu without even going SSJ1 was ridiculous and reminded me of GT (where characters would seemingly refuse to transform even when it shouldn't be a problem to do so).

Travis Touchdown wrote: o.O Me too. At first I thought that just screwed that up in the anime, but it's like that in the manga as well. He was just brought back to life and his wounds were healed, so he could've gone round 2 as a SSJ2. It wouldn't have made much of a difference, but at least Vegeta would've been able to take more hits before being badly injured.

Ok, I have to recheck my manga then. I'm almost positive that's not right though. Unless I'm going senile (totally possible), Goku fights at SSJ3 and Vegeta tells him to stop showing off and to not worry about giving him a turn and just finish it. Goku says he's trying, but can't catch his breath long enough to power up a sufficient attack. Vegeta says that he'll buy Goku that time, goes SSJ2, and rushes in. He's slowly picked apart, and Goku runs out of power. That's when Mr. Satan steps in, leading to the Buu vs Buu fight while Vegeta cooks up the Genki Dama plan, etc.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:57 am

Why not? It's the original work.

Original does not necessarily mean better. Such as the bit with Trunks that Kaboom mentioned. That's a clear case of anime version > manga version.

Don't forget this is also the same board that's had more than one thread about "anime canon" and "manga canon".

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:09 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:Yeah, I usually prefer the manga's take on things, but as far as I'm concerned, Trunks became a Super Saiyan upon Gohan's death, just because the storytelling is so much better that way. And Piccolo and the humans tried to help Gohan in his Kamehameha struggle against Cell. And Goku had an SSj2-level "warm up" with Kid Buu before getting serious and going SSj3. Stuff like that.

The first two things you listed are my favourite parts of anime only material, I think. I always loved the idea of the final Cell Kamehame-Ha being such a desperate battle, with everyone fighting on with no hope. And I don't like the idea of Piccolo standing back and watching Gohan get killed. And really, the Trunks special is just brilliant, and ranks up there with my favourite parts of the series. It's Dragon Ball without the whole 'It's alright, we can just bring them back!' stuff. You can actually feel real emotion when Gohan dies. And yeah, the SSJ2 fight against fight is a lot of fun to watch.

shinaobi · Post by **shinaobi** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:52 pm

*aside* I really gotta agree with Kaboom; I think one of my favorite fight scenes was the SSJ2 Goku on Vegeta fight.

But on topic(ish), I'm gonna guess that Freeza could take the Super Kamehameha based on the fact that Daizenshuu levels are presumably based on the characters at their max levels after taking a Senzu and getting a bit angry; I think we can assume that neither character totally fit all the criteria and that Goku's level at the time was far enough under Freeza that the highly-skilled intergalactic overlord(the Spirit Bomb he basically ate really didn't do much more than piss him right the fuck off; assuming sources do nothing but add their power levels to its own power, that Spirit Bomb would, I presume, have been powerful enough to drop nearly everything that appeared afterwards.) was able to take the hit and survive without much trouble; I'm gonna use the aforementioned Spirit Bomb for evidence on that count.

Even further on topic, I'm also gonna call that the Kaioshin were all somewhere beyond Trunks(in Super Saiyan) when he initially appeared; they were definitively referenced as being able to drop Freeza(Toriyama was pretty direct with this; he wasn't trying to be mercurial or mysterious. Stronger than=stronger than, not weaker than)

He describes what would be a pretty traumatic scene for someone as for how he ended up the only Supreme Kai left. I think it probably left an ingrained fear of Bibidi, Babidi, Buu, and anything connected with them. When Vegeta goes off with nothing resembling fear to take on one of their selected fighters, he is obviously perturbed at the lack of consideration given for the considerable power Babidi holds and what I think the Kaioshin assumes is Babidi's fairly considerable ability to pick fighters.

Technically, Kaioshin could have taken Pui Pui himself; the 10x gravity would have made things a bit troubling, but he could have brought him down.

So, in essence, I'll put down my opinion on the issue here: they're as strong as Toriyama says they are; tough enough to take down Freeza at the top of his game with little trouble. As Trunks did the aforementioned, they would presumably be at least as powerful as Super Saiyan Trunks when we first see him, possibly right around, if not a bit better than, the Piccolo who flips out when we see him at the first world tournament. Piccolo is probably the smartest character in the series, and he only shows fear when he assumes all that are in the fight are completely outclassesd by his enemy.
I think a bit of room can be given since Piccolo recognizes that Kaioshin is simply a higher order of being than he is, but this is the same Piccolo who(since I personally assume GT is canon, inconsistencies and all) regarded Heaven as meaning so little that he would choose to disregard authorities higher than Kami(who is cowed by the mere King Enma[I think that's how you say it]) and blow up Heaven simply so he can get sent to hell, Kaioshin is either a REALLY HIGH order of being or he's got a fair bit of toughness on him. I won't put him past Dabura, though.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:10 pm

Xyex wrote:Original does not necessarily mean better.

I never said that it did. But if we are going to discuss "what happened" in Dragon Ball (ignoring the fact that it's a work of fiction), we have to take facts from one work or the other. Mixing anime and manga facts isn't going to get us anywhere. Now, if a person has only watched the Dragon Ball anime, and they consider the anime to be the true version of events, more power to them (I just wouldn't engage in a debate with them, as the anime isn't my area of expertise). Yet if someone wants to tell me that Freeza killed Cargot, but future Gohan never saw a Super Saiyan Trunks, I'm going to call them ridiculous.

Xyex wrote:Such as the bit with Trunks that Kaboom mentioned. That's a clear case of anime version > manga version.

Well, that was just a case of the anime expanding on Toriyama's work (I still think that the manga's version of events makes more sense, personally); I don't see how you can fault the manga chapter for being "worse" than the anime special.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:11 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:I still think that the manga's version of events makes more sense, personally

Gohan in base effortlessly blocking Super Saiyan Trunks' attacks?