Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

dbzfan7 · Post by **dbzfan7** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:28 pm

Updated Tier List

Spoiler:

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:29 pm

Well it's way too early to say on Champa and Vodas as they were only just introduced. Beerus isn't a villain no, he's not really even that evil, he's just an antagonist. Champa doesn't seem so evil going by that chapter and neither does Vodas but if it was all some sinister plan then Vodas could be made to be as evil as Frieza or Cell if that was the intent.

MaGyunia · Post by **MaGyunia** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:19 am

Bullza wrote:Well it's way too early to say on Champa and Vodas as they were only just introduced. Beerus isn't a villain no, he's not really even that evil, he's just an antagonist. Champa doesn't seem so evil going by that chapter and neither does Vodas but if it was all some sinister plan then Vodas could be made to be as evil as Freeza or Cell if that was the intent.

If that's the intent it will fail miserably. Freeza is arguably the most charismatic of all DBZ villains (sadistic, no respect for any life form except his own, arrogant, racist, genocidal, maniacal, enslaver, absolutely evil), and Cell stops at nothing to achieve his selfish goal, even if it means displaying absolutely no respect for any form of life either (he absorbed millions of humans in a horrific way and killed thousands just to try to flush out #18).

Regarding Champa, his schemes and the fact he wants to remain unnoticed suggest to me that he's more of a schemer - and thus perhaps more of a coward - than Beerus is. Beerus is proud of himself, among many other character traits, you wouldn't conceive him scheming to get something he wants, he just goes there and does whatever it takes (for example, looking for the Super Saiya-jin God individual).

None of them, neither Beerus, Champa, Whis or Vados can be deemed villains, though. At most, they're antagonists. Given the proper circumstances, I think at least Beerus and Whis would act to save and help the good cause (as seen in Fukkatsu no F). Just because Beerus fights Goku and threatens numerous times to destroy the Earth, with Whis' apparent approval, doesn't mean he's evil. There's just no way we can compare him, and most likely Champa, to a lesser degree, to the likes of Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta in his early days, Freeza, Future #17, Future #18, Cell or Kid Buu, and I'm not even counting the Movies.

All of these guys have their own particular agendas, but whatever their final goal is, the way to achieve involves, or may involve, killing off entire races of people, destroying planets, slaughtering races, assassination, torture, etc. Beerus does display some of those traits here and there before he lost his shit and before the fight with Super Saiya-jin God Goku, but, because you watched BoG, you know that deep down he really can't be called a full-fledged villain (and not a full-fledged good guy, either, it's an entirely different concept in terms of character introduction, and probably the aspect that makes him such a wonderful addition to the franchise).

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:11 pm

I'm saying Vados could be turned into a main villain. She could have a Aizen thing going on where for now she seems ok but then eventually it turns out she's actually behind some sinister plan and a really evil and powerful being.

Tobi was originally a joke villain before he became a proper main villain. Something like that could be done with Super. It's an idea that hasn't been done before in Dragon Ball.

MaGyunia · Post by **MaGyunia** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:51 pm

Bullza wrote:I'm saying Vados could be turned into a main villain. She could have a Aizen thing going on where for now she seems ok but then eventually it turns out she's actually behind some sinister plan and a really evil and powerful being.

Tobi was originally a joke villain before he became a proper main villain. Something like that could be done with Super. It's an idea that hasn't been done before in Dragon Ball.

I wouldn't mind having a full-fledged villain in DBSuper, and quite in fact I was hoping for it when we were discussing the really new stuff and characters we'd be introduced after the retellings of BoG and Fukkatsu no F, but by full-fledged villain I was thinking of something along the lines of the typical maniacal, genocidal, sadistic yet extremely powerful guy we saw in all the arcs between the last stage of DB and all throughout the entirety of DBZ (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, #17, #18, Cell, Kid Buu). We're not going to get that. Besides, these guys aren't schemers or plotters, they're proud, arrogant and either bent on conquest and world domination (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), achieving immortality and becoming the strongest entity in the Universe (Vegeta, Freeza), killing Goku (Future #17, Future #18), achieving an unprecedented level of power and perfection by absorbing millions of humans in a horrific way (Cell) or just destroying everything and everyone in sight because that's what they do (Kid Buu).

I just can't see Vados, or Champa, or both of them acting together, coming even close to something like this. The introduction of Beerus and his particular personality traits was already enough to let us know that the degree of seriousness and the menace a potential new antagonist represents won't have the same degree or level of drama and desperation as the later stages of DB and the whole of DBZ did. The only way they can possibly, perhaps get that back is precisely by using previous villains, as was/will be the case of Freeza.

Bullza · Post by **Bullza** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:59 pm

Well if it ended up being the intention that Vados was secretly some sinister villain then we aren't supposed to buy that she could be. That's part of the deception and surprise.

Beerus wasn't evil like the others but that doesn't mean others in the future won't be. With the newest movies they've been limited for time which is likely why they used a non evil villain and then an evil villain who'd already been established.

With Super they've got the time to have another truly evil villain.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:16 pm

There's also the issue regarding the Super Dragonballs. Toriyama mentioned that the cast would need to gather them in the new arc, but that doesn't seem to be happening so far. That suggests that the tournament is just an initial set up and there'll be some twist afterwards. The tournament also seems like it would keep them both entirely out of fighting, which seems odd for newly introduced powerful characters.

Sandubadear · Post by **Sandubadear** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:32 pm

Neon Z wrote:There's also the issue regarding the Super Dragonballs. Toriyama mentioned that the cast would need to gather them in the new arc, but that doesn't seem to be happening so far. That suggests that the tournament is just an initial set up and there'll be some twist afterwards. The tournament also seems like it would keep them both entirely out of fighting, which seems odd for newly introduced powerful characters.

My guess is that they will need to gather the Super DBs after the tournament because... idk.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:32 am

Sandubadear wrote:
Neon Z wrote:There's also the issue regarding the Super Dragonballs. Toriyama mentioned that the cast would need to gather them in the new arc, but that doesn't seem to be happening so far. That suggests that the tournament is just an initial set up and there'll be some twist afterwards. The tournament also seems like it would keep them both entirely out of fighting, which seems odd for newly introduced powerful characters.
My guess is that they will need to gather the Super DBs after the tournament because... idk.

Champa succeeds in winning the tournament and claiming the U7's Earth as his and so Goku and co. need to wish it back?

JoeCapricorn · Post by **JoeCapricorn** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:36 am

I'm going to take a guess at Super Saiyan Satan's power level.

Spoiler:

I wonder what kind of fighters we'll see from Universe 6. On the one hand, they might not be at the level of Goku and Vegeta, on the other, we might have an evil SSJB guy. If their planet Plant were still around, there could be strong Saiyans from this twin Universe.

saunasolmu · Post by **saunasolmu** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:20 am

It was stated that Goku'd get new rival(s) who'd be around as strong as him. Since Champa seems to be more like a rival to Beerus than Goku, I'm guessing the rivals will be U6 fighters.

MaGyunia · Post by **MaGyunia** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:07 am

JoeCapricorn wrote:I wonder what kind of fighters we'll see from Universe 6. On the one hand, they might not be at the level of Goku and Vegeta, on the other, we might have an evil SSJB guy. If their planet Plant were still around, there could be strong Saiyans from this twin Universe.

Theoretically, there could a Freeza-level guy, a Bojack-level guy, a Cell-level guy, a Dabura-level guy, a Majin/Kid Buu-level guy, and so on, much in the same way there is in the 7th Universe, especially taking into account that they're "twin" Universes (whatever that might mean, but I've got my own theories). Whoever shows up, regardless of their scale of strength, will always be below the Vados + Champa duo, just like everyone, regardless of their unbelievable fantastic might is and probably will always be below the ultimate Beerus + Whis duo.

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:31 pm

Did Vegeta really say Goku surpassed Super Saiyajin God? This question came into my mind because, at some point of the battle of gods, a ceiling for Super Saiyan God's power is hinted and Vegeta supposedly believes Goku improved even further as a Super Saiyan.

nickzambuto · Post by **nickzambuto** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:47 pm

So what power level would you guys give Beerus and Whis, if they could be quantified with one? Freeza was 120,000,000, and Trunks was at least twice as strong as him, so 240,000,000, than the androids were at least twice as strong as Trunks, so 480,000,000.

Imperfect Cell stomped Piccolo and 17, making him at least twice as strong as them, so 960,000,000, then since Semi-Perfect Cell stomped 16, his strength once again doubled at the least, making him 1,920,000,000.

Super Vegeta stomped Semi-Perfect Cell, making him at least twice as strong AKA 3,840,000,000, then Perfect Cell was twice as strong as that AKA 7,680,000,000. SSJ2 Gohan stomped Perfect Cell making him at least 15,360,000,000, and we'll just stay on the low end and assume Majin Vegeta is equal to Gohan, thus making Fat Boo at least 30,720,000,000. So for clarification, Fat Boo is over 30 billion.

There's no clear scale between Fat Boo and Super Boo, but we'll just continue with the pattern of x2 as strong, making Super Boo 61,440,000,000, and Gohan, Mightiest of Warriors the first character to cross one hundred billion with 122,880,000,000. Compare that to Freeza's 120,000,000, Ultimate Gohan is literally like, 1,000 or 10,000 times stronger, I can't even keep up with the math anymore.

OK so this makes Bootenks at least 245,760,000,000 because he did toss Gohan around pretty easily, and we'll just go with another double and say Boohan is 491,520,000,000. This puts Vegetto at a whopping 983,040,000,000, which is dangerously close to breaking one trillion, and since we've been taking things on the low-end thus far (for example, not accounting for Perfect Cell's power suppression and just assuming he was at 100% against Vegeta, when in reality we know he wasn't even close) I think it's safe to give Vegetto the benefit of the doubt and give him at least one trillion. That only feels appropriate, him being the first character to break that. Let me just write that down, so it'll settle in.

Vegetto's power level is 1,000,000,000,000,000.

Did Freeza's voice actor say his power level was 100 quadrillion, or 100 quintillion? Because quadrillion is next after trillion, so coincidentally things can potentially line up, as once again, this whole list is taking things REALLY on the low-end and everyone should be much higher. Vegetto can be as high as 10 trillion.

Draconic · Post by **Draconic** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:31 am

But you don't have to be twice as strong as somebody to stomp then, however, as a neat little logical thing, your post is pretty good. If it were up to me, I would divide Vegetto's power level in half, to 500 billion. I think in the Buu saga the differences between characters were nowhere near two times (at least not all) so every bit stronger one would get would count. I can close my eyes to some things in your "list" prior to that, but from then you lose me.

However, I am one who enjoys having their powers on the lowest end possible, my personal list probably not reaching the tens of billions. So yeah... Still, a cool way of putting it. Liked the post.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:13 am

nickzambuto wrote:So what power level would you guys give Beerus and Whis, if they could be quantified with one? Freeza was 120,000,000, and Trunks was at least twice as strong as him, so 240,000,000, than the androids were at least twice as strong as Trunks, so 480,000,000.

Imperfect Cell stomped Piccolo and 17, making him at least twice as strong as them, so 960,000,000, then since Semi-Perfect Cell stomped 16, his strength once again doubled at the least, making him 1,920,000,000.

Super Vegeta stomped Semi-Perfect Cell, making him at least twice as strong AKA 3,840,000,000, then Perfect Cell was twice as strong as that AKA 7,680,000,000. SSJ2 Gohan stomped Perfect Cell making him at least 15,360,000,000, and we'll just stay on the low end and assume Majin Vegeta is equal to Gohan, thus making Fat Boo at least 30,720,000,000. So for clarification, Fat Boo is over 30 billion.

There's no clear scale between Fat Boo and Super Boo, but we'll just continue with the pattern of x2 as strong, making Super Boo 61,440,000,000, and Gohan, Mightiest of Warriors the first character to cross one hundred billion with 122,880,000,000. Compare that to Freeza's 120,000,000, Ultimate Gohan is literally like, 1,000 or 10,000 times stronger, I can't even keep up with the math anymore.

OK so this makes Bootenks at least 245,760,000,000 because he did toss Gohan around pretty easily, and we'll just go with another double and say Boohan is 491,520,000,000. This puts Vegetto at a whopping 983,040,000,000, which is dangerously close to breaking one trillion, and since we've been taking things on the low-end thus far (for example, not accounting for Perfect Cell's power suppression and just assuming he was at 100% against Vegeta, when in reality we know he wasn't even close) I think it's safe to give Vegetto the benefit of the doubt and give him at least one trillion. That only feels appropriate, him being the first character to break that. Let me just write that down, so it'll settle in.

Vegetto's power level is 1,000,000,000,000,000.

Did Freeza's voice actor say his power level was 100 quadrillion, or 100 quintillion? Because quadrillion is next after trillion, so coincidentally things can potentially line up, as once again, this whole list is taking things REALLY on the low-end and everyone should be much higher. Vegetto can be as high as 10 trillion.

Remember that Beerus himself said Freeza > Base Goku. You already have Base CG Gohan at 153,600,000. That's impossible.

My PL:

Whis: 15,000,000,000,000
Beerus: 10,000,000,000,000

Doctor. · Post by **Doctor.** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:08 am

nickzambuto wrote:So what power level would you guys give Beerus and Whis, if they could be quantified with one? Freeza was 120,000,000, and Trunks was at least twice as strong as him, so 240,000,000, than the androids were at least twice as strong as Trunks, so 480,000,000.

Imperfect Cell stomped Piccolo and 17, making him at least twice as strong as them, so 960,000,000, then since Semi-Perfect Cell stomped 16, his strength once again doubled at the least, making him 1,920,000,000.

Super Vegeta stomped Semi-Perfect Cell, making him at least twice as strong AKA 3,840,000,000, then Perfect Cell was twice as strong as that AKA 7,680,000,000. SSJ2 Gohan stomped Perfect Cell making him at least 15,360,000,000, and we'll just stay on the low end and assume Majin Vegeta is equal to Gohan, thus making Fat Boo at least 30,720,000,000. So for clarification, Fat Boo is over 30 billion.

There's no clear scale between Fat Boo and Super Boo, but we'll just continue with the pattern of x2 as strong, making Super Boo 61,440,000,000, and Gohan, Mightiest of Warriors the first character to cross one hundred billion with 122,880,000,000. Compare that to Freeza's 120,000,000, Ultimate Gohan is literally like, 1,000 or 10,000 times stronger, I can't even keep up with the math anymore.

OK so this makes Bootenks at least 245,760,000,000 because he did toss Gohan around pretty easily, and we'll just go with another double and say Boohan is 491,520,000,000. This puts Vegetto at a whopping 983,040,000,000, which is dangerously close to breaking one trillion, and since we've been taking things on the low-end thus far (for example, not accounting for Perfect Cell's power suppression and just assuming he was at 100% against Vegeta, when in reality we know he wasn't even close) I think it's safe to give Vegetto the benefit of the doubt and give him at least one trillion. That only feels appropriate, him being the first character to break that. Let me just write that down, so it'll settle in.

Vegetto's power level is 1,000,000,000,000,000.

Did Freeza's voice actor say his power level was 100 quadrillion, or 100 quintillion? Because quadrillion is next after trillion, so coincidentally things can potentially line up, as once again, this whole list is taking things REALLY on the low-end and everyone should be much higher. Vegetto can be as high as 10 trillion.

I disagree with A LOT of things in your list but I'll just address three things: why are Boo's absorptions doubling his power instead of just adding Gotenks/Gohan's power to Boo's? Is that Super Saiyan Vegetto or base Vegetto? Because if it's base Vegetto, I don't understand why he's that high... And finally, Ryuusei Nakao said Freeza's battle power was 100 quintillion as a joke, it was a pun in Japanese.

Pannaliciour · Post by **Pannaliciour** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:12 am

Zombie wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:So what power level would you guys give Beerus and Whis, if they could be quantified with one? Freeza was 120,000,000, and Trunks was at least twice as strong as him, so 240,000,000, than the androids were at least twice as strong as Trunks, so 480,000,000.

Imperfect Cell stomped Piccolo and 17, making him at least twice as strong as them, so 960,000,000, then since Semi-Perfect Cell stomped 16, his strength once again doubled at the least, making him 1,920,000,000.

Super Vegeta stomped Semi-Perfect Cell, making him at least twice as strong AKA 3,840,000,000, then Perfect Cell was twice as strong as that AKA 7,680,000,000. SSJ2 Gohan stomped Perfect Cell making him at least 15,360,000,000, and we'll just stay on the low end and assume Majin Vegeta is equal to Gohan, thus making Fat Boo at least 30,720,000,000. So for clarification, Fat Boo is over 30 billion.

There's no clear scale between Fat Boo and Super Boo, but we'll just continue with the pattern of x2 as strong, making Super Boo 61,440,000,000, and Gohan, Mightiest of Warriors the first character to cross one hundred billion with 122,880,000,000. Compare that to Freeza's 120,000,000, Ultimate Gohan is literally like, 1,000 or 10,000 times stronger, I can't even keep up with the math anymore.

OK so this makes Bootenks at least 245,760,000,000 because he did toss Gohan around pretty easily, and we'll just go with another double and say Boohan is 491,520,000,000. This puts Vegetto at a whopping 983,040,000,000, which is dangerously close to breaking one trillion, and since we've been taking things on the low-end thus far (for example, not accounting for Perfect Cell's power suppression and just assuming he was at 100% against Vegeta, when in reality we know he wasn't even close) I think it's safe to give Vegetto the benefit of the doubt and give him at least one trillion. That only feels appropriate, him being the first character to break that. Let me just write that down, so it'll settle in.

Vegetto's power level is 1,000,000,000,000,000.

Did Freeza's voice actor say his power level was 100 quadrillion, or 100 quintillion? Because quadrillion is next after trillion, so coincidentally things can potentially line up, as once again, this whole list is taking things REALLY on the low-end and everyone should be much higher. Vegetto can be as high as 10 trillion.
Remember that Beerus himself said Freeza > Base Goku. You already have Base CG Gohan at 153,600,000. That's impossible.

My PL:

Whis: 15,000,000,000,000
Beerus: 10,000,000,000,000

No thats not true, Beerus made that claim when goku wasn't full.power in base. Goku was relaxing the moment he was talking to Beerus.

Beerus made the claim he was fighting 100% against goku. He also made the claim he was sleepy/sleeping. Both claims are not true.

Better: when goku turns ssj3 (BOG) Beerus also didn't say " i had it wrong, you are really stronger than freeza now.

Doctor. · Post by **Doctor.** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:17 am

Pannaliciour wrote:No thats not true, Beerus made that claim when goku wasn't full.power in base. Goku was relaxing the moment he was talking to Beerus.

This argument again? It has been repeated three times in the series thus far, BoG, Super and the Super manga, that Goku is weaker than Freeza. Beerus only remarks that Goku is stronger WHEN Goku goes Super Saiyan. It's blatant denial at this point.

Pannaliciour · Post by **Pannaliciour** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:22 am

Doctor. wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:No thats not true, Beerus made that claim when goku wasn't full.power in base. Goku was relaxing the moment he was talking to Beerus.
This argument again? It has been repeated three times in the series thus far, BoG, Super and the Super manga, that Goku is weaker than Freeza. Beerus only remarks that Goku is stronger WHEN Goku goes Super Saiyan. It's blatant denial at this point.

By that logic freeza's soldiers are stronger than future trunks because he had a power level of 5 ( Stated in the Manga and Anime) your point is?

Beerus made the claim he was fighting 100% against goku. He also made the claim he was sleepy/sleeping. Both claims are not true.

Better: when goku turns ssj3 (BOG) Beerus also didn't say " i had it wrong, you are really stronger than freeza now.

And BTW you are not telling the truth. In BOG a
Beerus didn't said that Goku is stronger than Freeza when goku turns ssj. In fact in the manga he said nothing about goku in base is weaker than freeza. In fact he said that he now understands why goku defeated freeza when goku turns SSJ2. By this logic goku as ssj 1 is weaker dan Freeza? Please don't tell things when they are NOT correct!

And in the anime he made that claim indeed. But thats because Whis showed him how goku defeated freeza as a ssj. He waited for the transformation.

Goku wasn't power up in base, no aura no kaioken, nothing.

Kanzenshuu

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