Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Speaking of things people can or cannot accept, why can't people accept Zamasu going from SSJ2 tier to SSBlue tier in 20 years when he was stated to be extremely prodigious and capable of reaching Beerus' level someday by Goku?

Because even the youngest Kai's are hundreds of thousands of years old.

20 years is the equivalent of a second for a supreme Kai.

It makes no sense for a Kai to only get ss2 level in thousands of years and then jump to godly levels in "20".

Pretty much, it doesn't scale linearly. If they introduced A transformation or other mechanism people would be ok with it. But for it to spike for seemingly no reason is odd especially when we aren't told that he's trained extensively

Motivation could have a lot to do with it, he now actually has a reason to become as strong as possible so he can eliminate Son Goku and all mortals.

[Bullza]

Even in Super, Freeza in his true form was interior to base form Goku. Yet, he can still sense Goku's god ki

He never sensed God Ki in his final form at all and it was implied that Goku was the one who was inferior going by the narrators comment.

And we're talking about Super, so what the movie and manga does is a non-factor, so stop trying to drag it in here.

What does that matter? They're all versions of the same story. Trunks was shown to be above SSJ2 Goku in the manga as was implied in the anime as it's based on the same thing.

If Trunks is far stronger than Cabba, Frost and Magetta in the manga then he will be just the same in the anime as well because that's what the story is.

Trunks could sense Vegetto because he reached a level where he can sense god ki.

He was in his base form when he sensed Vegito's power. His Base form certainly wasn't well over 100 times more powerful than his SSJ2 power from a couple days before, obviously.

I don't know why you keep pushing that you need to be a god or even experience god ki to sense god ki since such a thing was never stated.

That's what was said by King Kai to Goku. Trunks is far stronger than Base Goku in his SSJ2 form and yet he couldn't sense God Ki. Evidently it would seem it's because he does not have God Ki himself and by perhaps obtaining that power is why he was able to sense it afterwards. Whis' comment was simply inconsistent as was shown a few times.

Do you honestly think that if Vegeta wanted to he wouldn't have flattened Trunks just as easily as he did Cabba? That isn't an assumption, he was holding back sense even if we assumed Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was equal to Goku and Vegeta, Super Saiyan 3 Goku one-shotted Trunks while holding back. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger.

He was shown not to flatten Trunks so yeah. Just because Vegeta's motive was for Trunks to hit Vegeta does not mean that Vegeta was holding back, that is the assumption. The same thing happened with Kid Trunks where he told him to land one hit on him and he did so he punched him back, he didn't hold back then either. What's the point in him laughing at the idea of SSJ3 only to then attack him with less power?

It's also an assumption to assume Goku was holding back when he one shotted him as that was never said either. That scene was also inconsistent in itself as he wasn't one shotted by Black, Vegeta or Zamasu who are more powerful.

There have similar plot lines, but that doesn't go with power levels, especially since the manga had Goku turn Super Saiyan God against Hit and Trunks because Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, while Super Saiyan 3 Goku smashed Trunks. So you can't used powers scaling from the manga to prove a point about the anime.

Yes you can. Some of the details are different but the general idea is usually the exact same regardless if they're at a lower level in the manga. What was presented in both versions is that Trunks is comparable to Goku's Super Saiyan forms and Goku required a higher form to one shot him.

Obviously because Super Saiyan God no longer exists in the anime and because Super Saiyan Blue wasn't supposed to be revealed to him at the time it was SSJ3 Goku that one shot Trunks instead but he is still comparable to his other forms.

Never once did he struggled and he treated Trunks with kid gloves.

Again assuming that he was treating him with kid gloves. I never said he struggled. He was simply pushed back and Goku required having to use SSJ2 against him. When he stopped his fists his arms still shook from the pressure of Trunks strenght. Something he did not do when he easily stopped Frost's fist as just a SSJ.

Just because Goku chose not to no sell Super Saiyan 2 Trunks doesn't show that they're equal, especially when Super Saiyan 3 smashed Trunks and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta didn't.

That's SSJ3 and SSJG, I never said he was as strong as that. He's stronger than SSJ2 and that's all. Again you're ignoring that Trunks was able to do to SSJ2 Goku what SSJ3 Gotenks could not do at all against Base Vegeta.

He didn't put up a better fight.

He put up a better fight in that he wasn't one shotted before he could react. He could react, he could dodge and withstand many more attacks.

He didn't keep up with Super Saiyan Rose. He caught Black off-guard once and it never happened again, given his performance in Episode 61. The same with Future Zamasu who easily handled Trunks in Episode 61 and was stated several times by Trunks and Goku of lowering his guard since he's an immortal.

Black wasn't off guard. He was on guard as he was in the middle of attacking Goku. The only part where he was possibly off guard was when Trunks stopped his blade. Black wasn't still off guard while Trunks was in his face talking to him and then the little scrap afterward where he was on guard enough to block a few attacks before being kicked through a building.

Once again SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even budge Base Vegeta. SSJ2 Trunks kicked SSJR Black into a building. Trunks also kept up with, dodged attacks from and pummeled Zamasu who was not lowering his guard whilst fighting back. It didn't stop Trunks from being able to catch Zamasu's fist, a being who is strong enough to hurt SSJB Goku.

I have also shown you stuff that has been shown about god ki and who can sense it, but you ignore that and call it a inconsistencies because it doesn't fit in with your idea that Trunks' base is equal to Goku and Vegeta's.

Because it is inconsistent. Final Frieza is on that level but he can't sense it but then Golden Frieza can. Cabba, Frost and Magetta are on that level but there was no indication on whether they could or could not sense it. Hit seemingly could and he's on the same level as Golden Frieza. SSJ2 Trunks is way past that level but he can't sense it but then the vastly weaker Base Trunks can sense it.

Then as I said in the other versions of the story Golden Frieza and Hit were never said to sense it. So sometimes it's as though they need to be at a certain level to sense it and then at other times they seem to be going with the original idea in that mortals just can't sense it.

You also had Black in a flashback in Episode 51 taking out Super Saiyan 2 Trunks without even trying.

A year prior to the episode where he fought back for a brief period and even forced Black to put up his guard to protect himself. This Black being stronger than SSJ2 Goku as well.

[HeroR]

Even in Super, Freeza in his true form was interior to base form Goku. Yet, he can still sense Goku's god ki

He never sensed God Ki in his final form at all and it was implied that Goku was the one who was inferior going by the narrators comment.

And we're talking about Super, so what the movie and manga does is a non-factor, so stop trying to drag it in here.

What does that matter? They're all versions of the same story. Trunks was shown to be above SSJ2 Goku in the manga as was implied in the anime as it's based on the same thing.

If Trunks is far stronger than Cabba, Frost and Magetta in the manga then he will be just the same in the anime as well because that's what the story is.

Trunks could sense Vegetto because he reached a level where he can sense god ki.

He was in his base form when he sensed Vegito's power. His Base form certainly wasn't well over 100 times more powerful than his SSJ2 power from a couple days before, obviously.

I don't know why you keep pushing that you need to be a god or even experience god ki to sense god ki since such a thing was never stated.

That's what was said by King Kai to Goku. Trunks is far stronger than Base Goku in his SSJ2 form and yet he couldn't sense God Ki. Evidently it would seem it's because he does not have God Ki himself and by perhaps obtaining that power is why he was able to sense it afterwards. Whis' comment was simply inconsistent as was shown a few times.

Do you honestly think that if Vegeta wanted to he wouldn't have flattened Trunks just as easily as he did Cabba? That isn't an assumption, he was holding back sense even if we assumed Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was equal to Goku and Vegeta, Super Saiyan 3 Goku one-shotted Trunks while holding back. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger.

He was shown not to flatten Trunks so yeah. Just because Vegeta's motive was for Trunks to hit Vegeta does not mean that Vegeta was holding back, that is the assumption. The same thing happened with Kid Trunks where he told him to land one hit on him and he did so he punched him back, he didn't hold back then either. What's the point in him laughing at the idea of SSJ3 only to then attack him with less power?

It's also an assumption to assume Goku was holding back when he one shotted him as that was never said either. That scene was also inconsistent in itself as he wasn't one shotted by Black, Vegeta or Zamasu who are more powerful.

There have similar plot lines, but that doesn't go with power levels, especially since the manga had Goku turn Super Saiyan God against Hit and Trunks because Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, while Super Saiyan 3 Goku smashed Trunks. So you can't used powers scaling from the manga to prove a point about the anime.

Yes you can. Some of the details are different but the general idea is usually the exact same regardless if they're at a lower level in the manga. What was presented in both versions is that Trunks is comparable to Goku's Super Saiyan forms and Goku required a higher form to one shot him.

Obviously because Super Saiyan God no longer exists in the anime and because Super Saiyan Blue wasn't supposed to be revealed to him at the time it was SSJ3 Goku that one shot Trunks instead but he is still comparable to his other forms.

Never once did he struggled and he treated Trunks with kid gloves.

Again assuming that he was treating him with kid gloves. I never said he struggled. He was simply pushed back and Goku required having to use SSJ2 against him. When he stopped his fists his arms still shook from the pressure of Trunks strenght. Something he did not do when he easily stopped Frost's fist as just a SSJ.

Just because Goku chose not to no sell Super Saiyan 2 Trunks doesn't show that they're equal, especially when Super Saiyan 3 smashed Trunks and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta didn't.

That's SSJ3 and SSJG, I never said he was as strong as that. He's stronger than SSJ2 and that's all. Again you're ignoring that Trunks was able to do to SSJ2 Goku what SSJ3 Gotenks could not do at all against Base Vegeta.

He didn't put up a better fight.

He put up a better fight in that he wasn't one shotted before he could react. He could react, he could dodge and withstand many more attacks.

He didn't keep up with Super Saiyan Rose. He caught Black off-guard once and it never happened again, given his performance in Episode 61. The same with Future Zamasu who easily handled Trunks in Episode 61 and was stated several times by Trunks and Goku of lowering his guard since he's an immortal.

Black wasn't off guard. He was on guard as he was in the middle of attacking Goku. The only part where he was possibly off guard was when Trunks stopped his blade. Black wasn't still off guard while Trunks was in his face talking to him and then the little scrap afterward where he was on guard enough to block a few attacks before being kicked through a building.

Once again SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't even budge Base Vegeta. SSJ2 Trunks kicked SSJR Black into a building. Trunks also kept up with, dodged attacks from and pummeled Zamasu who was not lowering his guard whilst fighting back. It didn't stop Trunks from being able to catch Zamasu's fist, a being who is strong enough to hurt SSJB Goku.

I have also shown you stuff that has been shown about god ki and who can sense it, but you ignore that and call it a inconsistencies because it doesn't fit in with your idea that Trunks' base is equal to Goku and Vegeta's.

Because it is inconsistent. Final Frieza is on that level but he can't sense it but then Golden Frieza can. Cabba, Frost and Magetta are on that level but there was no indication on whether they could or could not sense it. Hit seemingly could and he's on the same level as Golden Frieza. SSJ2 Trunks is way past that level but he can't sense it but then the vastly weaker Base Trunks can sense it.

Then as I said in the other versions of the story Golden Frieza and Hit were never said to sense it. So sometimes it's as though they need to be at a certain level to sense it and then at other times they seem to be going with the original idea in that mortals just can't sense it.

You also had Black in a flashback in Episode 51 taking out Super Saiyan 2 Trunks without even trying.

A year prior to the episode where he fought back for a brief period and even forced Black to put up his guard to protect himself. This Black being stronger than SSJ2 Goku as well.

Goku was clearly superior than true form Freeza in his base and Freeza could sense Goku's god ki.

All versions are basically the same story, but not the same power scaling for the reasons I mentioned. So it makes no difference if Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was above Goku in the manga, when that same manga had him equal to Super Saiyan 3 and Goku went Super Saiyan God. In the anime, nothing is shown that puts Trunks above Goku at all.

It's more than possible that Trunks' base form went up after he got his new form since it doesn't seem any stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Trunks not being able to sense God ki when true form Freeza could shows that he isn't up there with Goku and Vegeta even as a Super Saiyan 2. And Whis said Goku and Vegeta were at a level when they could bare sense go ki before either of them got their God forms. You're literally making up the rule that a God form is needed to sense God ki.

So, you're ignoring motive because Vegeta didn't knock Trunks out in one hit, yet Super Saiyan 3 Goku did it with ease. And you're actually using Kid Trunks who punched Future Trunks when he was off guard and depressed. This isn't an inconsistency. This is you ignoring, underplaying, and trying to manipulate events because it doesn't line up with your idea. Especially since we have seen time and time again in this series that people can use their upper form and hold back. Vegeta laughed at the idea of Super Saiyan 3 because he had a stronger form. That mean he didn't hit Trunks with its full power if Trunks was overpowered by just Super Saiyan 3.

Different power scaling, just like Hit is noticeable weaker in the manga and Vegeta could have won if he didn't transformed twice. While in the anime, Vegeta at full power couldn't win. So you can't just mix since according to the manga, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is even to stronger than Super 3 Goku.

He didn't struggle. Trunks punched at him and Goku easily caught his hands and smiled. This isn't a sign of two opponents who are evenly match. And Goku never once showed he needed to transform, since you talk about assumptions. Goku only went, 'Super Saiyan 2. Then I'll transform too'. And shaking doesn't mean much since he's also smirking.

Still nothing showing he was as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku who he couldn't even hurt. And I see you ignore the manga when it's convenient since you try to use it to support that Trunks is equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, but then back away from it when it shows Trunks equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

He didn't react, he got plummeted, despite Vegeta making a game out of it, unlike Cabba.

Black was clearly off-guard given his shocked expression, especially since he never touched Black again until he transformed. And when Trunks plummeted Future Zamasu, he was in the middle of one of his motive rants and Trunks and Goku both said he drops his guard all the time, unlike Copy Vegeta who was fully on guard and was prepared to fight Gotenks. So the two situations are not similar.

True form Freeza did sense Goku's God ki. In the anime, if you're at a certain level, you can sense God ki. Trunks couldn't, showing that even at Super Saiyan 2, he was weaker than true form Freeza. The only inconsistency here is you not accepting that Trunks wasn't that strong.

It was never said that Trunks got vastly stronger in a years time. Only that Black increased in strength.

[Bullza]

Goku was clearly superior than true form Freeza in his base and Freeza could sense Goku's god ki.

The narrator said that Goku transformed into a SSJG in order to surpass the powered up Frieza. There was no indication that Frieza could sense that power. He attacked Goku after transforming to make sure he wasn't bluffing. If he could sense his power, which he seemed to in his Golden form, then he'd know he was no match for him.

All versions are basically the same story, but not the same power scaling for the reasons I mentioned. So it makes no difference if Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was above Goku in the manga, when that same manga had him equal to Super Saiyan 3 and Goku went Super Saiyan God.

If Trunks is much stronger than Cabba, Magetta and Frost in the manga then hes not going to be much drastically weaker in the anime. The power levels differ in the details but they aren't going to be different when it comes to that. Your comment about Goku is just details, in both versions he transformed further in order to quickly one shot him after they were evenly matched beforehand.

You're literally making up the rule that a God form is needed to sense God ki.

That's not making anything up. That is what was originally said. Mortals can't sense Gods was in Toriyama's written script. What Whis said was not, that's a Toei thing and seemingly an inconsistent one now.

So, you're ignoring motive because Vegeta didn't knock Trunks out in one hit, yet Super Saiyan 3 Goku did it with ease.

Trunks wasn't knocked out and other characters stronger than SSJ3 Goku did not knock him out in one hit. Vegeta laughed at the idea of SSJ3 and went further, he would not fight at a lesser level because that defeats the point. The Vegeta who attacked Trunks was stronger than Goku.

Different power scaling, just like Hit is noticeable weaker in the manga and Vegeta could have won if he didn't transformed twice.

It's the same scaling with different details. Hit was weaker than SSJB Goku as he was in the anime. They scale the same. Base Vegeta is equal to Base Cabba like in the anime. SSJ Goku is stronger than Frost, Magetta and Cabba like in the anime. SSJ2 Trunks is weaker than Base Black like in the anime. SSJ2 Trunks is stronger than SSJ2 Goku like in the anime.

Some details are very different but they all compare pretty much the same.

He didn't struggle. Trunks punched at him and Goku easily caught his hands and smiled. This isn't a sign of two opponents who are evenly match. And Goku never once showed he needed to transform, since you talk about assumptions. Goku only went, 'Super Saiyan 2. Then I'll transform too'. And shaking doesn't mean much since he's also smirking.

Trunks was still holding back at the time that Goku caught his fists with their arms shaking from the pressure of each other's strenght. This same pressure was not present for when SSJ Goku stopped Frost's fist because Frost is much weaker than Trunks. Just because he smiled in a sparring match doesn't mean Trunks is weaker, he smiled fighting Beerus.

Goku did transform so it's not an assumption to say he needed to transform. Goku transformed into a SSJ2 to fight Zamasu and beat him, it's also not an assumption to say he needed to transform there either.

And I see you ignore the manga when it's convenient since you try to use it to support that Trunks is equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, but then back away from it when it shows Trunks equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

I addressed that already. He one shotted Trunks as a SSJ3 in the anime because SSJG does not exist anymore in the anime. That's just details again. The important part is that Trunks fought Goku, was comparable to his Super Saiyan forms whilst holding back and then Goku transformed further to one shot him. A different form was used to one shot him is all.

He didn't react

He tracked Vegeta's speed then switched out of his USSJ2 form to dodge one of his attacks. Of course he reacted to him. He reacted enough to defend himself barely. Cabba was taken out before he knew what happened.

Black was clearly off-guard given his shocked expression, especially since he never touched Black again until he transformed.

He was surprised at first when Trunks blocked his blade. Then Trunks started shouting at him, then he powered up, then he started attacking him and Black guarded several attacks so none wasn't off guard if he blocked attacks. It doesn't matter if it was a one off, he still kicked Black flying while SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't move someone possibly dozens or hundreds of times weaker so much as an inch while he was just standing there.

Zamasu dropping his guard doesn't excuse Trunks dodging attacks from him or physically being able to stop his strike when he's fast enough to hit SSJB Goku and hurt him with his physical strenght.

True form Freeza did sense Goku's God ki.

No he didn't.

It was never said that Trunks got vastly stronger in a years time. Only that Black increased in strength.

It doesn't need to be said. You can clearly see he was one shotted at one point then a year later he wasn't.

[HeroR]

Goku was clearly superior than true form Freeza in his base and Freeza could sense Goku's god ki.

The narrator said that Goku transformed into a SSJG in order to surpass the powered up Frieza. There was no indication that Frieza could sense that power. He attacked Goku after transforming to make sure he wasn't bluffing. If he could sense his power, which he seemed to in his Golden form, then he'd know he was no match for him.

All versions are basically the same story, but not the same power scaling for the reasons I mentioned. So it makes no difference if Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was above Goku in the manga, when that same manga had him equal to Super Saiyan 3 and Goku went Super Saiyan God.

If Trunks is much stronger than Cabba, Magetta and Frost in the manga then hes not going to be much drastically weaker in the anime. The power levels differ in the details but they aren't going to be different when it comes to that. Your comment about Goku is just details, in both versions he transformed further in order to quickly one shot him after they were evenly matched beforehand.

You're literally making up the rule that a God form is needed to sense God ki.

That's not making anything up. That is what was originally said. Mortals can't sense Gods was in Toriyama's written script. What Whis said was not, that's a Toei thing and seemingly an inconsistent one now.

So, you're ignoring motive because Vegeta didn't knock Trunks out in one hit, yet Super Saiyan 3 Goku did it with ease.

Trunks wasn't knocked out and other characters stronger than SSJ3 Goku did not knock him out in one hit. Vegeta laughed at the idea of SSJ3 and went further, he would not fight at a lesser level because that defeats the point. The Vegeta who attacked Trunks was stronger than Goku.

Different power scaling, just like Hit is noticeable weaker in the manga and Vegeta could have won if he didn't transformed twice.

It's the same scaling with different details. Hit was weaker than SSJB Goku as he was in the anime. They scale the same. Base Vegeta is equal to Base Cabba like in the anime. SSJ Goku is stronger than Frost, Magetta and Cabba like in the anime. SSJ2 Trunks is weaker than Base Black like in the anime. SSJ2 Trunks is stronger than SSJ2 Goku like in the anime.

Some details are very different but they all compare pretty much the same.

He didn't struggle. Trunks punched at him and Goku easily caught his hands and smiled. This isn't a sign of two opponents who are evenly match. And Goku never once showed he needed to transform, since you talk about assumptions. Goku only went, 'Super Saiyan 2. Then I'll transform too'. And shaking doesn't mean much since he's also smirking.

Trunks was still holding back at the time that Goku caught his fists with their arms shaking from the pressure of each other's strenght. This same pressure was not present for when SSJ Goku stopped Frost's fist because Frost is much weaker than Trunks. Just because he smiled in a sparring match doesn't mean Trunks is weaker, he smiled fighting Beerus.

Goku did transform so it's not an assumption to say he needed to transform. Goku transformed into a SSJ2 to fight Zamasu and beat him, it's also not an assumption to say he needed to transform there either.

And I see you ignore the manga when it's convenient since you try to use it to support that Trunks is equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, but then back away from it when it shows Trunks equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

I addressed that already. He one shotted Trunks as a SSJ3 in the anime because SSJG does not exist anymore in the anime. That's just details again. The important part is that Trunks fought Goku, was comparable to his Super Saiyan forms whilst holding back and then Goku transformed further to one shot him. A different form was used to one shot him is all.

He didn't react

He tracked Vegeta's speed then switched out of his USSJ2 form to dodge one of his attacks. Of course he reacted to him. He reacted enough to defend himself barely. Cabba was taken out before he knew what happened.

Black was clearly off-guard given his shocked expression, especially since he never touched Black again until he transformed.

He was surprised at first when Trunks blocked his blade. Then Trunks started shouting at him, then he powered up, then he started attacking him and Black guarded several attacks so none wasn't off guard if he blocked attacks. It doesn't matter if it was a one off, he still kicked Black flying while SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't move someone possibly dozens or hundreds of times weaker so much as an inch while he was just standing there.

Zamasu dropping his guard doesn't excuse Trunks dodging attacks from him or physically being able to stop his strike when he's fast enough to hit SSJB Goku and hurt him with his physical strenght.

True form Freeza did sense Goku's God ki.

No he didn't.

It was never said that Trunks got vastly stronger in a years time. Only that Black increased in strength.

It doesn't need to be said. You can clearly see he was one shotted at one point then a year later he wasn't.

You just have to look at the last episode to see that base form Goku was superior to Freeza. The only reason why Freeza even got hits in was because he attacked Goku's friends. Freeza knew what he was looking at and attacked as spot check. By all indication, he sensed Goku's god ki and understood what happened. So yes, true form Freeza can sense god ki until Trunks, 'I just sense pressure'.

Going off the manga to support your cause only shows you don't have much of one. Especially if going by the manga, the entire U6 team is only around Cell to Buu Saga levels since Super Saiyan God is it own form.

And you're literally ignoring everything else that was said and has happened. Whis said that Goku and Vegeta had barely reached the level of sensing god ki, despite neither of them being gods at the time and mortals like Freeza and Hit being able to sense god ki. Showing that you don't need to be a god to sense god ki.

Goku one-shoted him and Trunks was on his back. If you don't think Goku could have rendered him unconscious if he desired, then you're just fooling yourself. And you're basically saying that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta was weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku since he gave Trunks multiple hits, yet Trunks was still able to stand.

The power scaling is clearly different. So I won't repeat myself.

Trunks holding back is a non-factor since the only thing he held back was not using his sword. Even then, Goku was never pushed or threatened by Goku. He block, caught his fists, and smirked because Trunks has gotten stronger. Nothing in the at exchanged show the power of equal fighters or someone who's closed to that level. Trunks performed worse against Super Saiyan 2 Goku then he did against Black in the past, who got punched by Super Saiyan Trunks. And Goku didn't need to transform since he never said he had to, so you're making stuff up again.

You're again making up stuff because nothing in Goku and Trunks' exchanged in the anime showed them being equal. He also didn't track Vegeta, not sure where you're pulling that from.

Dropping your guard in Dragon Ball got Goku shot by a random laser and nearly killed. So it clearly make a different and isn't an excuse, especially since Trunks performed badly in Episode 61 against even the lacks of Future Zamasu.

And you're again making assumptions, funny since that was your complaint about me. You're making the assumption that Trunks grew vastly stronger since meeting Black when no such thing was said. We don't even know how much stronger Black was compared to when he came to Earth, so you can't go around saying that Trunks had this huge power increase than no one mentioned, not even Trunks.

Again, the anime have shown that Trunks is inferior to true form Freeza. Trying to mix and match other sources and cherry-pick certain scenes doesn't prove anything other than the anime doesn't support any of your statements.

[ChiefWamsutta]

*snip*

During the Universe 6 Tournament in Episode 37 at about 16:45 Vegeta transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue.

Hit, who was meditating/resting/not caring, instantly glances up at attention. If you look at his facial expressions, you can clearly see he sensed Vegeta's power.

Non-gods CAN sense God Ki. That's just the way it is. The producers and editing team would not put this in if it were not to make this point known.

[Bullza]

You just have to look at the last episode to see that base form Goku was superior to Freeza.

Well I do think he's stronger but that is what the narrator said. Either way that Frieza should have been at the level to sense God Ki but there was no indication that he could unlike with Golden Frieza.

Going off the manga to support your cause only shows you don't have much of one.

What you on about? I mentioned plenty of things besides the manga. Yes in the manga they're all weaker than Buu probably but that's besides the point. In the manga they've established how these characters relate to each other. Frost is stronger than Piccolo but weaker than SSJ Vegeta. Magetta and Super Saiyan Cabba are fairly close to SSJG Vegeta. Hit is stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue. Black is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks and many other examples.

They all compare the same way in the anime because that's what the story is. So if in the manga Trunks is shown to be superior to the the U6 participants but weaker than Hit and Black then that is true for the anime as well and that is very heavily implied.

Trunks holding back is a non-factor since the only thing he held back was not using his sword. Even then, Goku was never pushed or threatened by Goku.

He said he'd use max power which happened to include the sword being used. It's not just him using the sword. At which point he exploded the field that was created by Bulma after she saw Goku and Beerus fight and he received Beerus' compliments. Goku was pushed back, no he wasn't threatened, he wasnt hugely over powered or anything like that, he's just comparable.

He just showed the strenght to force him back whilst still holding back.

He also didn't track Vegeta, not sure where you're pulling that from.

He tracked him with his eyes when he charged at him and then downsized to dodge his attack. Of course he tracked him. He also tracked them all fighting later on too.

Dropping your guard in Dragon Ball got Goku shot by a random laser and nearly killed. So it clearly make a different and isn't an excuse, especially since Trunks performed badly in Episode 61 against even the lacks of Future Zamasu.

Nothing remotely alike. Goku had his opponent down on the ground beaten. He was blasted at from someone else from behind. Black had his power up as he was in mid attack on Goku when Trunks physically stopped him. Black was aware of his presence, his guard was up which was he was able to block a couple of Trunks' attacks before being caught and sent flying.

That's nothing like what happened with Goku or with Frieza back when Piccolo kicked him.

Once again SSJ3 Gotenks punched and blasted at Base Vegeta and he didn't move at all, he didn't even bother to block. Trunks fired a Masenko at Base Black whose drastically more powerful and Black had to guard himself.

You're making the assumption that Trunks grew vastly stronger since meeting Black when no such thing was said.

He doesn't have to be vastly stronger. It's not an assumption either. If he was taken out with one attack the first time he fought Black and then over the year that passed Black grew stronger and then in the other fight several attacks didn't take him out....then he got stronger.

Again, the anime have shown that Trunks is inferior to true form Freeza.

That was never shown at any point. You say that Frieza could sense God Ki even though he can't and you've still yet to explain why he could.

You're putting precedence on a year old arguably inconsistent Toei line that was never mentioned anywhere else to ignore Trunks' performance against everyone he fought, ignoring the manga and how the characters compare based on the story outline, ignoring that Base Trunks could sense God Ki whilst the vastly more powerful SSJ2 Trunks could not and more.

The very same Kamehameha that Black shot at SSJB Goku to do severe damage to him only did comparable damage to SSJ2 Trunks as well, it didn't vaporise him out of existence.

[HeroR]

You just have to look at the last episode to see that base form Goku was superior to Freeza.

Well I do think he's stronger but that is what the narrator said. Either way that Frieza should have been at the level to sense God Ki but there was no indication that he could unlike with Golden Frieza.

Going off the manga to support your cause only shows you don't have much of one.

What you on about? I mentioned plenty of things besides the manga. Yes in the manga they're all weaker than Buu probably but that's besides the point. In the manga they've established how these characters relate to each other. Frost is stronger than Piccolo but weaker than SSJ Vegeta. Magetta and Super Saiyan Cabba are fairly close to SSJG Vegeta. Hit is stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue. Black is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks and many other examples.

They all compare the same way in the anime because that's what the story is. So if in the manga Trunks is shown to be superior to the the U6 participants but weaker than Hit and Black then that is true for the anime as well and that is very heavily implied.

Trunks holding back is a non-factor since the only thing he held back was not using his sword. Even then, Goku was never pushed or threatened by Goku.

He said he'd use max power which happened to include the sword being used. It's not just him using the sword. At which point he exploded the field that was created by Bulma after she saw Goku and Beerus fight and he received Beerus' compliments. Goku was pushed back, no he wasn't threatened, he wasnt hugely over powered or anything like that, he's just comparable.

He just showed the strenght to force him back whilst still holding back.

He also didn't track Vegeta, not sure where you're pulling that from.

He tracked him with his eyes when he charged at him and then downsized to dodge his attack. Of course he tracked him. He also tracked them all fighting later on too.

Dropping your guard in Dragon Ball got Goku shot by a random laser and nearly killed. So it clearly make a different and isn't an excuse, especially since Trunks performed badly in Episode 61 against even the lacks of Future Zamasu.

Nothing remotely alike. Goku had his opponent down on the ground beaten. He was blasted at from someone else from behind. Black had his power up as he was in mid attack on Goku when Trunks physically stopped him. Black was aware of his presence, his guard was up which was he was able to block a couple of Trunks' attacks before being caught and sent flying.

That's nothing like what happened with Goku or with Frieza back when Piccolo kicked him.

Once again SSJ3 Gotenks punched and blasted at Base Vegeta and he didn't move at all, he didn't even bother to block. Trunks fired a Masenko at Base Black whose drastically more powerful and Black had to guard himself.

You're making the assumption that Trunks grew vastly stronger since meeting Black when no such thing was said.

He doesn't have to be vastly stronger. It's not an assumption either. If he was taken out with one attack the first time he fought Black and then over the year that passed Black grew stronger and then in the other fight several attacks didn't take him out....then he got stronger.

Again, the anime have shown that Trunks is inferior to true form Freeza.

That was never shown at any point. You say that Frieza could sense God Ki even though he can't and you've still yet to explain why he could.

You're putting precedence on a year old arguably inconsistent Toei line that was never mentioned anywhere else to ignore Trunks' performance against everyone he fought, ignoring the manga and how the characters compare based on the story outline, ignoring that Base Trunks could sense God Ki whilst the vastly more powerful SSJ2 Trunks could not and more.

The very same Kamehameha that Black shot at SSJB Goku to do severe damage to him only did comparable damage to SSJ2 Trunks as well, it didn't vaporise him out of existence.

Not going to repeat myself, but you're literally cherry-picking scene to support your cause and mixing sources. Trunks can't sense god ki, despite the show repeatedly that if you reach a certain level, you can sense god ki without being a god. Since not even Super Saiyan 2 Trunks can sense god ki, his base is weaker than Goku and Vegeta's base form since he should be feeling more than just pressure. Especially since he felt Vegetto after getting his new Super Saiyan form. That isn't an inconstancy. The anime has been constant on this point, and again true form Freeza did sense Goku's god power, unlike Trunks.

The manga generally has all the U6 fighters weaker, so Trunks being even as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku in the Buu Saga would put him over the U6 fighters. That isn't the case with the anime where Goku's base is above the Buu Saga and it was never said or hinted that Trunks reached such a high level. Trunks being stronger than the U6 fighters is exclusive only to the manga, unless you have seen Toriyama's notes where he says where Trunks ranks because as far as we know, all the notes says is, 'Trunks goes Super Saiyan 2, so do Goku, they spar, Goku knocks Trunks out'.

Trunks didn't charge up or anything. All he did was take out his sword and charged Goku. There was no indication of a major power increase. So, you're assuming that Trunks was holding back a vast amount of power when no such thing was hinted or stated. Goku was pushed back because he allowed it, just like Vegeta allowed Trunks to stand conscious when he could have one-shotted Trunks. This is like saying Black was only little above Super Saiyan Trunks because Trunks hit him in the stomach instead of him no selling.

Bulma can track the fighters, so using that as a reference is highly flawed. Trunks got railroaded by Vegeta and he only stood on his feet because Vegeta allowed it, not because he was strong.

Black was off-guard and Zamasu drops his guard all the time. It has been shown repeated in Dragon Ball that if you drop your guard, you can get tag, just like Goku found out. Goku was more of a sneak attack, but the principle is the same. If it wasn't, Goku and Trunks wouldn't have repeatedly commented on Future Zamasu dropping his guard. And you're using another moment when Black was caught by surprise with the Masenko. Black was about to finished Trunks, he threw his word, stunning Black, and then Masenko while he was shock. Not the same thing as Copy Vegeta.

You are making an assumption that Black or Trunks got massively stronger in a year's time when nothing was stated. As far as the script goes, only Black got stronger and we don't' know by how much. The same can't be said about Trunks when nothing was said about him getting vastly stronger in a year's time. So it's an assumption on your part.

We already know that Black should have killed Trunks with that Kamehameha, so I don't know why you brought that up. He didn't because plot demand that Trunks stay alive.

I explained why he could several times. True form Freeza was inferior to Goku's base form, but he was still on the level of sensing god ki. Trunks wasn't, plain and simple. And the it isn't a year old given that Hit sensed Vegeta's god ki back in Episode 37 back in March. Trunks couldn't sense Vegeta in Episode 55. This isn't a 'year old arguably inconsistent'. This is all recent, and you want to ignore it because you think Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, because 'he pushed Goku back', which is stupid since if we go by that, Super Saiyan 3 Goku is vastly stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta since he took down full power Trunks in one hit, while Vegeta couldn't do that in several. Trunks was nowhere no Goku's base form in any form.

[Abra kadabra]

In the anime when goku went Ssj3, Trunks says something like "if that's the case I will use my max power" lol he was pushing goku back whilst holding back. Kid Trunks even comments on goku being pushed back. Kinda obvious what the writers were trying to portray.

[TheMikado]

Because even the youngest Kai's are hundreds of thousands of years old.

20 years is the equivalent of a second for a supreme Kai.

It makes no sense for a Kai to only get ss2 level in thousands of years and then jump to godly levels in "20".

Pretty much, it doesn't scale linearly. If they introduced A transformation or other mechanism people would be ok with it. But for it to spike for seemingly no reason is odd especially when we aren't told that he's trained extensively

Motivation could have a lot to do with it, he now actually has a reason to become as strong as possible so he can eliminate Son Goku and all mortals.

Which is fine except it's head canon. In every other instance in the entirety of the franchise when a character gets "motivated" to be come substantially stronger they explicitly say so. Even Golden Frieda got an explanation, BS as it was.. unless we're now to the point where the writers know they don't even have to try explaining things anymore since people will think it's the greatest piece of writing in the history of mankind regardless of whether they actually put any real thought or effort into it.

[Doctor.]

*snip*

During the Universe 6 Tournament in Episode 37 at about 16:45 Vegeta transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue.

Hit, who was meditating/resting/not caring, instantly glances up at attention. If you look at his facial expressions, you can clearly see he sensed Vegeta's power.

Non-gods CAN sense God Ki. That's just the way it is. The producers and editing team would not put this in if it were not to make this point known.

Didn't Trunks say that Vegetto's power was incredible, too?

[dbgtFO]

Did anyone get a good laugh out of the V-Jump description for Merged Zamasu's power? Best damn joke I've heard all week.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Can you elaborate?

[TheMikado]

*snip*

During the Universe 6 Tournament in Episode 37 at about 16:45 Vegeta transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue.

Hit, who was meditating/resting/not caring, instantly glances up at attention. If you look at his facial expressions, you can clearly see he sensed Vegeta's power.

Non-gods CAN sense God Ki. That's just the way it is. The producers and editing team would not put this in if it were not to make this point known.

Didn't Trunks say that Vegetto's power was incredible, too?

Yes Trunks can sense SSB Vegetto but not SSB Vegeta

[Desassina]

I'm using a base multiplier of 10 for SSJ in DB Super. I'm not using the two base theory, so here goes the attempt at a power level list, with the exponents being:

DB Super Arcs

Battle of Gods

[spoiler]SSJ Goku/Vegeta/Gotenks - 1
SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta - 2
SSJ3 Goku/Gotenks - 3
Super Vegetto - 4
Enraged Vegeta - 5
SSJG/SSJ Goku - 6
Beerus - 10
Whis - 15[/spoiler]

Resurrection of F

[spoiler]SSJ Gohan - 1
Freeza (1st form) - 3
Base Goku/Vegeta/Freeza (4th) - 5
SSJB Goku/Vegeta/Golden Freeza - 7[/spoiler]

Universe 6 Tournament

[spoiler]Piccolo - 3
Frost (1st/3rd/4th) - 3/4/5
Botamo - 5
Base/SSJ Cabba - 5/6
Magetta - 6
SSJB Goku/Vegeta - 7
KKx10 SSJB Goku/Hit - 8[/spoiler]

Future Trunks' Arc

[spoiler]Zamasu - 4
Base Goku/Vegeta/Trunks - 5
SSJ/SSJ2 Trunks - 6/7
Goku Black - 6
Super Trunks/SSJR Black - 8
Merged Zamasu - 12
SSJB Vegetto - 14[/spoiler]

Heh, what a ride, and it's most likely not right. The conclusion is that SSJB is to SSJ what SSJ2 was, but with different traits on the body, while KKx10 SSJB, Super Trunks and SSJ3 offered the same increase for a limited amount of time, and fusion multiplied their bases.

[Doctor.]

During the Universe 6 Tournament in Episode 37 at about 16:45 Vegeta transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue.

Hit, who was meditating/resting/not caring, instantly glances up at attention. If you look at his facial expressions, you can clearly see he sensed Vegeta's power.

Non-gods CAN sense God Ki. That's just the way it is. The producers and editing team would not put this in if it were not to make this point known.

Didn't Trunks say that Vegetto's power was incredible, too?

Yes Trunks can sense SSB Vegetto but not SSB Vegeta

It seems likely to me that he just picked up on the skill at some point.

[Bullza]

despite the show repeatedly

It was said once in a filler episode and was never mentioned again nor was it mentioned in anything else.

Especially since he felt Vegetto after getting his new Super Saiyan form.

But he didn't sense Vegito in his new Super Saiyan form. He felt that power in his Base form, when he was many times weaker than as a SSJ2 when he could not sense it. So being at a certain level of power to be able to sense it is the inconsistency there.

The manga generally has all the U6 fighters weaker, so Trunks being even as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku in the Buu Saga would put him over the U6 fighters.

It doesn't matter how they compare to Buu saga characters or Super Saiyan God. All that matters is how the Super characters compare to each other. Trunks is stronger than the U6 fighters in the manga so he will also be stronger than them in the anime because they are based on the same thing. Zamasu was a prodigy and stronger than the Supreme Kai's but weaker than Goku in the anime and he will also be in the manga because they are the same, he might be weaker in the manga compared to the anime but they align all the same.

So, you're assuming that Trunks was holding back a vast amount of power when no such thing was hinted or stated.

You're sorta throwing that term around a little much. Trunks said "I will use my max power". Goku said "Yeah, come at me with your full power". Therefore he was not using his full power when he was pushing SSJ2 Goku back and he powered up further. That's not assuming anything, that's what was literally said.

Goku was pushed back because he allowed it

....Come on now. That's not even an argument.

Bulma can track the fighters, so using that as a reference is highly flawed.

Bulma couldn't track Goku fighting Frieza and that's a terrible example. Against the same opponent, Cabba was blitzed without being able to react while Trunks was able to react and dodge an attack. That puts him above Cabba.

Black was off-guard and Zamasu drops his guard all the time. It has been shown repeated in Dragon Ball that if you drop your guard, you can get tag, just like Goku found out.

You're just believing what you choose to believe now. You're pushing this idea that Black was off guard just to excuse what Trunks did though he obviously didn't have his guard down if he's literally guarding attacks, that'd the complete opposite of his guard being down. His guard was not down when he powered up an attack and went in to hurt Goku and Trunks physically stopped him in his tracks.

Zamasu's guard was also not down considering he was dodging several attacks from Trunks before also being caught.

And you're using another moment when Black was caught by surprise with the Masenko.

That's not dropping his guard though. Since when was being slightly surprised the cause for a character having to guard themselves from attacks from a enormously weaker character? Nappa was caught by surprise by Tiens tribeam but he didn't have to guard himself because the attack was too weak anyway.

Black put his guard up because the attack would have hurt him it's not that complicated.

You are making an assumption that Black or Trunks got massively stronger in a year's time when nothing was stated. As far as the script goes, only Black got stronger and we don't' know by how much.

If the script says Black got stronger then why am I assuming for saying Black got stronger? Who cares if it didn't say Trunks got stronger? Why do you need to be told that when it's apparent to anybody who saw both scenes? That's just common sense if one hit knocked him out of Super Saiyan in before and then a dozen didn't after.

We already know that Black should have killed Trunks with that Kamehameha, so I don't know why you brought that up. He didn't because plot demand that Trunks stay alive.

So now the plot excuse is convenient. An attack powerful enough to badly hurt SSJB Goku did not kill SSJ2 Trunks whose Buu saga level and "Oh it's because of the plot" but the idea that Trunks is comparable to Goku because of the plot..."Nah that's stupid".

I explained why he could several times.

No you haven't. You said Final Form Frieza can sense God Ki, where was that ever shown? It was mentioned when he was in his Golden form. In his Final Form he couldn't sense SSJB Goku, that's why he attacked him to see if he was bluffing or not, if he could sense God Ki then he would already know.

And the it isn't a year old

Whis' comment was said a year ago. There's never been a comment, an actual specific comment on that since and it was never said anywhere else. The original rule by Toriyama was that mortals can't sense Gods. Whis' comment was Toei's thing and it's very possible another writer involved went with the original dialogue.

This is all recent, and you want to ignore it because you think Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, because 'he pushed Goku back'

And because

- SSJ3 Gotenks could not do the same to Base Vegeta.
- Goku's arms shook from the pressure of Trunks whereas it didn't for Frost.
- He's stronger than SSJ2 Goku in the manga
- He held up better against Vegeta than Cabba
- He received Beerus' compliments whereas SSJ2 Vegeta was utterly pathetic
- He kicked SSJR Black smashing into a building
- He kept up with Zamasu and stopped his fist and dodged his attacks
- He held up briefly against Base Black and forced him to protect himself
- He survived a Kamehameha which hurt SSJB Goku
- Goku felt the need to need to use SSJ2

On the other hand you ignore all of this because of an old inconsistent line of dialogue that was created by Toei in a filler episode.

[TheMikado]

Didn't Trunks say that Vegetto's power was incredible, too?

Yes Trunks can sense SSB Vegetto but not SSB Vegeta

It seems likely to me that he just picked up on the skill at some point.

I don't recall that being a learnable skill short of getting powerful enough to sense it or being a god. Either way with out an official explanation it's head canon.

[Doctor.]

I don't recall that being a learnable skill short of getting powerful enough to sense it or being a god. Either way with out an official explanation it's head canon.

The Oracle Fish can sense God Ki and she's (?) not a God.

[TheMikado]

I don't recall that being a learnable skill short of getting powerful enough to sense it or being a god. Either way with out an official explanation it's head canon.

The Oracle Fish can sense God Ki and she's (?) not a God.

I'm pretty sure it's as much of a God as Dendi

[Marlowe89]

It was said once in a filler episode and was never mentioned again nor was it mentioned in anything else.

I won't butt into your conversation beyond this post, but I just want to mention that this is exactly the kind of cherrypicking that HeroR is referring to.

As far as continuity is concerned, descriptors such as "filler" are quite literally meaningless. Everything that occurs in the Super anime is ultimately a real event in the Super anime's continuity; there are simply no ifs, ands or buts about that. Just as we accept Kaioken Super Saiyan Blue Goku as being a thing in the anime despite the fact that it wasn't in the manga and may not have been in Toriyama's original script, we must also accept what Whis specifically made clear about sensing God ki in addition to what was specifically shown on the multiple occasions that non-gods were entirely capable of sensing God ki without ever actually having used it, as both Hit and Golden Freeza themselves illustrated. There is also no implication whatsoever that Trunks could use God ki in his Super form, so until noted otherwise it's a baseless proposition.

There's really not much room for debate here. When the show presents us with something specific like this, then that's just how it is in regards to the anime.