"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think kaioken is that inconsistent. It makes sense that a god's technique would work with a god transformation. Even then, it doesn't even work most of the time.

The problem with Kaio-ken is, SSB Goku was already a little stronger than Hit, and Hit could overpower Goku only with his Tokitobashi. Hit kept improving the Tokitobashi through their fight, while it was stated that his ki wasn't increasing. Then Goku uses Kaio-ken x10, and Hit takes a dozen of hits from Goku without exploding...

[dbzfan7]

I don't think it should have. Hell it should have been THE form to keep, and not Blue. It makes it an utter waste of time and form that shouldn't have been made, if they barely have any mileage out of it.

Beyond the logic of Kaio-Ken being poor from past history, the bigger problem is it's constantly going to make everyone have it in mind all the time. So now if Goku doesn't use it at certain points, we're all going to say he didn't go all out or he didn't use the Kaio-Ken so it isn't that serious yet...etc. Not to mention it just leads to a ton more confusion in the hierarchy.

If that was the case, then it wouldn't be as bad. But I feel like ssb makes it seem so unnecessary. Not necessarily because of power, but because of the other reasons I said before. I always interpreted as ssb being the form where Goku finally made that ssg power his own and ssg ruins that.

Why is the logic poor? It's explained in the show. Super saiyan just wasn't compatible with it. Even ssb is barely compatible. Although your other point is really good imo. They should've just never used it again after King Kai tells him not to.

I consider SSJB combining SSJ and SSJ God. Hence what Goku was saying. That's how I interpreted it.

Because what they described was Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan was already deemed the pinnacle of no stress and perfect control. So much so you an sleep in it now. Then they made up some retcon bullshit that wasn't there, for a form that is more stressful than SSJ.

[ekrolo2]

Let's say he didn't absorb it in the manga continuity...

No, no, I'm stopping you there. We're not "saying" anything, he did not absorb SSG in the manga, it's a fact.

Pretty much. Any talk of absorption definitely stops when the form that is meant to be absorbed is just another transformation Goku can turn on and off at will.

[kinisking]

Let's say he didn't absorb it in the manga continuity...

No, no, I'm stopping you there. We're not "saying" anything, he did not absorb SSG in the manga, it's a fact.

Pretty much. Any talk of absorption definitely stops when the form that is meant to be absorbed is just another transformation Goku can turn on and off at will.

Except he absorbed it in the movie and then re-transformed Into it later on.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Except he absorbed it in the movie and then re-transformed Into it later on.

We aren't talking about the movies, we're talking about the manga. Entirely separate continuities.

[ekrolo2]

Except he absorbed it in the movie and then re-transformed Into it later on.

The movie doesn't count for the manga, in the manga, Goku's fight with Beerus ends after he loses God and the fact he can flip it on and off as a separate form proves that there is no absoprtion in the manga continuity.

[MathSSJ]

No, no, I'm stopping you there. We're not "saying" anything, he did not absorb SSG in the manga, it's a fact.

Pretty much. Any talk of absorption definitely stops when the form that is meant to be absorbed is just another transformation Goku can turn on and off at will.

Except he absorbed it in the movie and then re-transformed Into it later on.

In an involuntary act. If it meant to be a form that he could pop again, why would Toriyama himself introduce SSGSS?

[kinisking]

Except he absorbed it in the movie and then re-transformed Into it later on.

The movie doesn't count for the manga, in the manga, Goku's fight with Beerus ends after he loses God and the fact he can flip it on and off as a separate form proves that there is no absoprtion in the manga continuity.

That's my freaking point. In the movies he absorbed it and could turn it on and off again so the same thing could be happening in the manga. It doesn't prove anything.

[ekrolo2]

Except he absorbed it in the movie and then re-transformed Into it later on.

The movie doesn't count for the manga, in the manga, Goku's fight with Beerus ends after he loses God and the fact he can flip it on and off as a separate form proves that there is no absoprtion in the manga continuity.

That's my freaking point. In the movies he absorbed it and could turn it on and off again so the same thing could be happening in the manga. It doesn't prove anything.

Except nothing in the movies or the anime even remotely implies he can, nothing at all. Hell, the Super anime is actually MORE consistent with SSGod being a temporary boost form by never having it appear again!

[Jinzoningen MULE]

That's my freaking point. In the movies he absorbed it and could turn it on and off again so the same thing could be happening in the manga. It doesn't prove anything.

...he fact he can flip it on and off as a separate form proves that there is no absoprtion in the manga continuity.

It's not even that. Absorption of the form was never mentioned, never alluded to even once in the manga. That's literally all that matters in this discussion.

It wasn't portrayed to happen, it wasn't alluded to after the fact. Therefore, it didn't happen.

[kinisking]

The movie doesn't count for the manga, in the manga, Goku's fight with Beerus ends after he loses God and the fact he can flip it on and off as a separate form proves that there is no absoprtion in the manga continuity.

That's my freaking point. In the movies he absorbed it and could turn it on and off again so the same thing could be happening in the manga. It doesn't prove anything.

Except nothing in the movies or the anime even remotely implies he can, nothing at all. Hell, the Super anime is actually MORE consistent with SSGod being a temporary boost form by never having it appear again!

The fact that he literally transforms into it again implied that he can.

The manga is a promotional item and back then it was extremely quick paced. Just because it didn't mention something that everyone knew from every other form of the media doesn't mean it isn't part of the mangas continuity. Either way, this devolved into an argument I didn't even want to be involved in. I already said that I didn't like SSG returning regardless of whether he absorbed it's power or not. That was my initial argument and somehow the most controversial part of it was the fact that I said he might have absorbed it rather than stating its a fact. I'm not even dismissing the possibility that they didn't absorb it, I'm just not ready to say it's and absolute fact.

[ekrolo2]

The fact that he literally transforms into it again implied that he can.

In the movies maybe but the manga of Super has its own version of Battle of Gods and there, we have nothing concerning SSGod being absorbed because Goku can flip it on and off. If you want to make a bridge between the Super manga and Toyotaro's earlier F release, you can say Goku can access 10% or something of SSGods power in Base but not all of it. But personally, I don't go that route since Piccolo is still apparently stronger than Base Goku & Vegeta at the U6 tournament in the manga.

[kinisking]

The fact that he literally transforms into it again implied that he can.

In the movies maybe but the manga of Super has its own version of Battle of Gods and there, we have nothing concerning SSGod being absorbed because Goku can flip it on and off. If you want to make a bridge between the Super manga and Toyotaro's earlier F release, you can say Goku can access 10% or something of SSGods power in Base but not all of it. But personally, I don't go that route since Piccolo is still apparently stronger than Base Goku & Vegeta at the U6 tournament in the manga.

Make sure to read my edit to that comment BTW. Also I never said that him being able to flip it off and on again = the power is absorbed. I'm just saying that him being able to flip it off and on again doesn't mean that the power wasn't absorbed because we have a continuity where he does both. Does it say 10 percent in the ROF manga?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except he absorbed it in the movie and then re-transformed Into it later on.

The movie doesn't count for the manga, in the manga, Goku's fight with Beerus ends after he loses God and the fact he can flip it on and off as a separate form proves that there is no absoprtion in the manga continuity.

That's my freaking point. In the movies he absorbed it and could turn it on and off again so the same thing could be happening in the manga. It doesn't prove anything.

Super Saiyan & Super Saiyan God didn't give Goku a significant boost in power in the movies though.

[Noah]

The problem with Kaio-ken is, SSB Goku was already a little stronger than Hit, and Hit could overpower Goku only with his Tokitobashi. Hit kept improving the Tokitobashi through their fight, while it was stated that his ki wasn't increasing. Then Goku uses Kaio-ken x10, and Hit takes a dozen of hits from Goku without exploding...

That's the worst part, how could Hit be so durable? Kaioken was nice, but 2x was enough, 10x is clusterfuck.

[Gog]

The problem with Kaio-ken is, SSB Goku was already a little stronger than Hit, and Hit could overpower Goku only with his Tokitobashi. Hit kept improving the Tokitobashi through their fight, while it was stated that his ki wasn't increasing. Then Goku uses Kaio-ken x10, and Hit takes a dozen of hits from Goku without exploding...

That's the worst part, how could Hit be so durable? Kaioken was nice, but 2x was enough, 10x is clusterfuck.

Hit was harnessing not only the Cell, and Android saga, but he was also harnessing the plot, that is the only reason. Kind of surprised that he didn't transform into super Saiyan rage, if you ask me.

[emperior]

The problem with Kaio-ken is, SSB Goku was already a little stronger than Hit, and Hit could overpower Goku only with his Tokitobashi. Hit kept improving the Tokitobashi through their fight, while it was stated that his ki wasn't increasing. Then Goku uses Kaio-ken x10, and Hit takes a dozen of hits from Goku without exploding...

That's the worst part, how could Hit be so durable? Kaioken was nice, but 2x was enough, 10x is clusterfuck.

Hit was harnessing not only the Cell, and Android saga, but he was also harnessing the plot, that is the only reason. Kind of surprised that he didn't transform into super Saiyan rage, if you ask me.

The anime was bullshit in that situation. They should have stopped at Kaio-Ken x2 unless it was written by Toriyama that Goku was supposed to be 10x Vegeta.

[Gog]

That's the worst part, how could Hit be so durable? Kaioken was nice, but 2x was enough, 10x is clusterfuck.

Hit was harnessing not only the Cell, and Android saga, but he was also harnessing the plot, that is the only reason. Kind of surprised that he didn't transform into super Saiyan rage, if you ask me.

The anime was bullshit in that situation. They should have stopped at Kaio-Ken x2 unless it was written by Toriyama that Goku was supposed to be 10x Vegeta.

Manga was also bullshit with Super Saiyan God, being thrown back into the mix. Honestly should have been kaio ken times 1.5 in the manga. Honestly in the anime, I would imagine that Hit had some super special assassin technique, that meant any attack that's a one shot, is halved, or something. Or he's ten times as strong

[Ki Breaker]

That's the worst part, how could Hit be so durable? Kaioken was nice, but 2x was enough, 10x is clusterfuck.

That's the reason I still couldn't find any logic behind the 10x kaioken, what was the point of showing it as 10 times and not just one?

[OLKv3]

Pretty much. Any talk of absorption definitely stops when the form that is meant to be absorbed is just another transformation Goku can turn on and off at will.

Except he absorbed it in the movie and then re-transformed Into it later on.

In an involuntary act. If it meant to be a form that he could pop again, why would Toriyama himself introduce SSGSS?

SSGSS is separate either way though. It's when you turn into a SSJ while using God power. This implies in the movie, manga, and anime that God Ki can be turned on and off.