The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Michsi]

Hmm, then I admit I forgot that part yet still

What's important here, he was training

The fact that he trained his body at 100 G to the point of near death was apperently an efficient way to gain power , that obviously worked.

If Vegeta would have know or used this type of training he would have been stronger than we were shown since he had known about the benefits of zenkais all his life.

[hleV]

If we exclude every unfair power-ups Goku and Vegeta had, Goku only came up with a better idea for training in ROSAT once, and Vegeta instantly figured Goku's training plan after seeing him. By training alone in ROSAT for 1 year Vegeta surpassed half of Goku's power.

In Boo arc Vegeta, who had trained harder but under worse conditions than Goku did, was pretty close to Goku in power. He was confident that Babidi's spell would give him enough power to close the gap between them, without knowing how much power Babidi can grant him.

On Earth, I doubt Goku has gravity room to train in, so Vegeta has an advantage of that. Goku can teleport to the afterlife, though.

And I don't think that Goku was that much stronger (if at all) than Vegeta at the 28th Budokai.

[Michsi]

If we exclude every unfair power-ups Goku and Vegeta had, Goku only came up with a better idea for training in ROSAT once, and Vegeta instantly figured Goku's training plan after seeing him. By training alone in ROSAT for 1 year Vegeta surpassed half of Goku's power.

You like to emphasize on the "once" part because this would make Goku's "brilliant" training method (that Vegeta comented on again and again, both in the Buu Saga AND in the Cell Saga) seem like an accident , a one time deal. Sorry, but no. The author made the difference clear once by showing the difference in the results between them when they start training under the same conditions. I don't think he needed to come up with another situation to prove the same thing.
What's more, he figured out what Goku had done but still couldn't reach the same results. It doesn't matter that he trained alone the second time since he also trained alone to reach SSJ 1.

In Boo arc Vegeta, who had trained harder but under worse conditions than Goku did, was pretty close to Goku in power. He was confident that Babidi's spell would give him enough power to close the gap between them, without knowing how much power Babidi can grant him.

I don't think he was pretty close to Goku in power because otherwise he wouldn't have become so desperate to turn to Babidi. It only took a couple of moments of watching Goku in action for him to realized Goku was stronger and I don't think he would have done something so drastic like helping Babidi if the difference was small.

On Earth, I doubt Goku has gravity room to train in, so Vegeta has an advantage of that. Goku can teleport to the afterlife, though.

Yes he can, but does he? We know Vegeta has his gravity room, we do not what Goku does to train.

And I don't think that Goku was that much stronger (if at all) than Vegeta at the 28th Budokai.

If he was, than why didn't Goku look forward to fighting Vegeta in that tournament. It's been clearly established that Goku had been bored these past years and the real reason he started training Uub wasn't to have a succesor as Earth's defender, but to finally have another opponent. Something that Vegeta obviously hadn't managed to become by that time.
In the alternative ending of DB Toriyama drew for a special edition of the manga, he even shows Vegeta saying "one day I find a way to surpass you" meaning that in-universe and in the authors mind Vegeta was still weaker than Goku.

[Piccolo Daimao]

In relation to this particular discussion, I have a new match-up.

Son Goku vs. Vegeta (Boo arc)

However, this is if Goku was alive and had spent 7 years training on Earth rather than in the afterlife. And he never reached Super Saiyan 3.

I'm personally in a split mind about this. While I do think that Goku's training in the afterlife gave him something of an advantage over Vegeta and allowed him to unlock Super Saiyan 3, both Goku and Vegeta agree that despite the fact that Vegeta had done more training than him, he says that Goku's a greater genius than him, assumedly this being the reason why Goku had remained ahead of him. This is supported by Vegeta's speech during Goku's fight with Kid Boo.

However, would that matter if Vegeta has the gravity room up to, as far as we know, 300G?

[Michsi]

However, would that matter if Vegeta has the gravity room up to, as far as we know, 300G?

Under these circumstances, yes, I think Vegeta would surpass him. Goku may be a genious, but there is a limit to everything and I never got the impression that Toriyama made Goku as untouchable as, say, GT.

[Rocketman]

The only thing he had was lack of fatique in the afterlife.

You have to admit, though, that's a pretty big only. Even if their power gains from training were equal, Vegeta has to stop and sleep and/or stop to let himself recuperate.

If Vegeta sleeps eight hours a night on average and takes no other breaks at all, that's a full 852 days (two years, three months, 29 days) Goku keeps training where Vegeta isn't.

[Michsi]

You have to admit, though, that's a pretty big only. Even if their power gains from training were equal, Vegeta has to stop and sleep and/or stop to let himself recuperate.

If Vegeta sleeps eight hours a night on average and takes no other breaks at all, that's a full 852 days (two years, three months, 29 days) Goku keeps training where Vegeta isn't.

True, except the one who is said to have trained harder is Vegeta, meaning I can very well imagine him spending more time training than Goku. I don't think Goku spent every waking minute training in the afterlife. That sort of behaviour seems to be typical to Vegeta rather than to Goku, who generally seems more laid back and calm about these things.

To put it simple, what I mean by efficient training is something like this. 20 push ups done right bring more benefits than 50 push ups done wrong. Sure the effort is still there and it's still a work out but your muscles don't get the maximun benefit from this exercise and you waste more energy than you should. Something like that, if that makes any sense.


Also, his journey on Snake Way showed that he did get tired and needed to rest to some extent. It might not be as risky for his body as when he was alive, but it still weakness he has to deal with apparently.

[hleV]

It doesn't matter that he trained alone the second time.

Really? It doesn't matter that he trained alone? Wow, I'm done with you.

[Michsi]

Really? It doesn't matter that he trained alone? Wow, I'm done with you.

Hmmm, so he did not reach SSJ 1 and SSJ 2 by himself, or Goku SSJ 3 for that matter.

Or maybe we should also take into consideration that, unlike Vegeta, who went in with someone who was around his strength, both SSJ-users, Goku went in with Gohan who was a lot weaker than him and first had to bring his sparring partner to his level. Meaning that he had less time to dedicate to his own improvement.

Also, important to note! Vegeta went in alone by HIS CHOICE! Meaning that his training method is less efficient by default, if you say a sparring partner makes training better.

Seeing that you chose to avoid everything else I said, I think it's me who is done here.

[Kaboom]

Let's cool it down, guys. Yeesh.

[hleV]

Hm, fine, I'll add.

Seeing that you chose to avoid everything else I said

I didn't. Your arguments are simply invalid. Just felt like that's enough. If you really insist, I'll neglect your earlier so called "arguments".

Hmmm, so he did not reach SSJ 1 and SSJ 2 by himself, or Goku SSJ 3 for that matter.

How does that support the idea of Goku always training more efficiently than Vegeta?

Or maybe we should also take into consideration that, unlike Vegeta, who went in with someone who was around his strength, both SSJ-users, Goku went in with Gohan who was a lot weaker than him and first had to bring his sparring partner to his level. Meaning that he had less time to dedicate to his own improvement.

How does that support the idea of Goku always training more efficiently than Vegeta?

Also, important to note! Vegeta went in alone by HIS CHOICE! Meaning that his training method is less efficient by default, if you say a sparring partner makes training better.

Goku trains alone too (with rare exceptions).

Your only argument is the instance of training for Cell Games, where they were trying to surpass the Super Saiyan and because of certain factors, which don't prove Goku's ultimate superiority in training efficiency, Goku ended up much stronger.

[Michsi]

How does that support the idea of Goku always training more efficiently than Vegeta?

How does that support the idea of Goku always training more efficiently than Vegeta?

In both cases I was referring to your statement that there was a difference between their results because Goku went in with someone and Vegeta went in alone, so he was at an unfair disadvantage, so I showed something that could be interpreted just as much as an disadvantage.

I don't believe that training alone makes the training less efficient by default if the fighter knows what he is doing.

Your only argument is the instance of training for Cell Games, where they were trying to surpass the Super Saiyan and because of certain factors, which don't prove Goku's ultimate superiority in training efficiency, Goku ended up much stronge

And what, pray tell, are these certain factors?

And there is still that ten year peace time on earth where apparently, Vegeta didn't come close to Goku's power either.

And the fact that he Vegeta admits that Goku is a genius.

[hleV]

And what, pray tell, are these certain factors?

Training with another MSSJ.

And there is still that ten year peace time on earth where apparently, Vegeta didn't come close to Goku's power either.

I disagree.

And the fact that he Vegeta admits that Goku is a genius.

Goku ended up stronger than Vegeta. That's the reason why Vegeta went on to just admit Goku's superiority.

[Michsi]

Training with another MSSJ.

That Vegeta also had?

Goku ended up stronger than Vegeta. That's the reason why Vegeta went on to just admit Goku's superiority

And how did he get to be stronger than him?

Gohan is also stronger than Vegeta, but he never praised the kid.

I disagree.

Well, I suppose that's the end of that discussion , since it was pretty clearly shown in the story and backed up be the author.

[CatouttaHell]

End of Z Base Goku vs Good Boo

Base Goku godstomps him. It's pretty clear that Oob (Rage Burst) >= Pure Boo > Base Goku (End of Z) > Base Vegeta (End of Z) > Good Boo.

End of Z Goku is probably only a few notches below his GT self at worst IMO.

[hleV]

Training with another MSSJ.

That Vegeta also had?

Only later.

Goku ended up stronger than Vegeta. That's the reason why Vegeta went on to just admit Goku's superiority

And how did he get to be stronger than him?

By training under better conditions.

Gohan is also stronger than Vegeta, but he never praised the kid.

Goku's the one who Vegeta always rivaled. I don't see how Gohan's important here.

I disagree.

it was pretty clearly shown in the story and backed up be the author.

I disagree.

[Nineteen]

Moving on...

Androids 17 and 20 are standing with their backs to each other in the center of Main Street in Tombstone, Arizona. They walk twenty paces, turn, and... raise their hands.

17 begins discharging generic ki blasts.

20 begins absorbing them.

Does 17's much-vaunted 'Infinite Energy Reactor' run dry before 20 a'splodes?

[Michsi]

Only later.

Um, Vegeta and Trunks went in first iIrc

By training under better conditions.

No. Vegeta was the one with the gravity chamber.

Goku's the one who Vegeta always rivaled. I don't see how Gohan's important here.

Because Goku's the one who proves to be genius and mentions Goku always being ahead of him.
Vegeta himself never accused Goku of having better training conditions or something. He himself dismissed this notion.

I disagree.

Fine then. What's your argument for this?

[hleV]

Only later.

Um, Vegeta and Trunks went in first iIrc

They didn't master SSJ.

By training under better conditions.

No. Vegeta was the one with the gravity chamber.

I'm pretty sure training in the afterlife is better than that. In fact, one of the reasons Goku stayed in the afterlife was to train.

Goku's the one who Vegeta always rivaled. I don't see how Gohan's important here.

Because Goku's the one who proves to be genius and mentions Goku always being ahead of him.

Nope, because Goku's the one who Vegeta always rivaled.

Vegeta himself never accused Goku of having better training conditions or something. He himself dismissed this notion.

Vegeta isn't that kind of a person to go into details. He was left in dust by Goku for the Nth time, so that was it for him.

I disagree.

Fine then. What's your argument for this?

Argument for what? I don't see an implication of Goku's ultimate superiority over Vegeta at the end of the series.

[Michsi]

They didn't master SSJ.

Let me back track a little here

How did Goku manage to master the SSJ?

I'm pretty sure training in the afterlife is better than that. In fact, one of the reasons Goku stayed in the afterlife was to train.

I disagree, he stayed in the afterlife because 1) to stop attracting danger to earth 2) to avaoid a peadefull life on earth, probably

You still have yet to prove what super training conditions Goku had in the afterlife that Vegeta didn't.

Vegeta isn't that kind of a person to go into details. He was left in dust by Goku for the Nth time, so that was it for him.

Not wanting to go into detals? He praised Goku back as the one who always supasses him, when Goku praised Vegeta on his training. Vegeta wouldn't praised him otehrwise and be sure that Vegeta would have said something had he thought Goku's power up was due to unfair conditions and would have said it loudly.

Argument for what? I don't see an implication of Goku's ultimate superiority over Vegeta at the end of the series.

And I don't think that Goku was that much stronger (if at all) than Vegeta at the 28th Budokai.

If he was, than why didn't Goku look forward to fighting Vegeta in that tournament. It's been clearly established that Goku had been bored these past years and the real reason he started training Uub wasn't to have a succesor as Earth's defender, but to finally have another opponent. Something that Vegeta obviously hadn't managed to become by that time.
In the alternative ending of DB Toriyama drew for a special edition of the manga, he even shows Vegeta saying "one day I find a way to surpass you" meaning that in-universe and in the authors mind Vegeta was still weaker than Goku.

Anyway I'm done here, I feel like I've repeated the same argument over and over.
My mind won't change about Goku's training and his methods being more efficient and this being greatly backe up by the story. If people want to see it differently, that's their choice.