Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

It also broke his arms and rendered him practically useless afterward so it's a big gamble. It's not something he'd ever done throughout the entire series.

Far from useless, he was still able to unleash quite the assault on Merged Zamasu even with his arms broken. It was the Kaioken that finally put him down.

[Bullza]

What was the life risking attack the Kamehameha that broke his arms or the Kaioken?

[Noah]

What was the life risking attack the Kamehameha that broke his arms or the Kaioken?

Watch the scene again, his arms were already broken by the effort he put in that Super Kamehameha wave

[Hugo Boss]

But fusion is clearly much weaker than it was back in Z, so we don't know how strong Vegetto is right now. He very well may be Goku + Vegeta x5 in which case he would indeed be below Kaioken x10 Goku as Vegeta is slightly weaker.

How? It is the same Potara they used against Majin Boo. Besides, Goku said merging together was their only option and he used kaioken a few moments before.

In my scenario the Kaioken is limitless, has no ki drain and also no side effects. The regular Kaioken is none of these things.

Kaioken has high ki consumption and stress on his mind and body regardless of the level he uses. Note that Goku immediately lost his Super Saiyan Blue form as soon as he kicked Zamasu.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How? It is the same Potara they used against Majin Boo. Besides, Goku said merging together was their only option and he used kaioken a few moments before.

In my scenario the Kaioken is limitless, has no ki drain and also no side effects. The regular Kaioken is none of these things.

Kaioken has high ki consumption and stress on his mind and body regardless of the level he uses. Note that Goku immediately lost his Super Saiyan Blue form as soon as he kicked Zamasu.

That's what I said.

[Sora Saiyan]

Well the manga has given a better scale on SSJB.
SSJB Vegeta > SSJ2 Black > Base Black > SSJ3 Goku > FPSSJ2 Trunks
Vegeta totally dominated SSJ2 Black, so SSJB is now well over 100x SSJ3 Goku at the bare minimum in the manga.

[ZombieVito]

Well the manga has given a better scale on SSJB.
SSJB Vegeta > SSJ2 Black > Base Black > SSJ3 Goku > FPSSJ2 Trunks
Vegeta totally dominated SSJ2 Black, so SSJB is now well over 100x SSJ3 Goku at the bare minimum in the manga.

And I thought me using 50 times was crazy.

[Bullza]

I see so it looks like for the manga it'd go something like...

Base Goku - 1
Super Saiyan Goku - 50
Super Saiyan 2 Goku - 100
Super Saiyan 3 Goku - 400
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks - 400
Base Black - Over 400
Super Saiyan Black - Over 20,000
Super Saiyan 2 Black - Over 40,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku - Well over 40,000

But that's odd then with the Universe 6 saga. If the Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who fought Hit was at around 10% he'd still be over 4,000 and enormously more powerful than the Super Saiyan Goku who fought equally against Hit.

At least it sort of makes that clear for the manga anyway. It does nothing for the anime though. Black didn't turn into a Super Saiyan Rose but into a regular Super Saiyan form in the manga so wouldn't that count as evidence that Super Saiyan Rose really is Black's version of Super Saiyan Blue afterall?

[DBZ Macky]

I see so it looks like for the manga it'd go something like...

Base Goku - 1
Super Saiyan Goku - 50
Super Saiyan 2 Goku - 100
Super Saiyan 3 Goku - 400
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks - 400
Base Black - Over 400
Super Saiyan Black - Over 20,000
Super Saiyan 2 Black - Over 40,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku - Well over 40,000

But that's odd then with the Universe 6 saga. If the Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who fought Hit was at around 10% he'd still be over 4,000 and enormously more powerful than the Super Saiyan Goku who fought equally against Hit.

At least it sort of makes that clear for the manga anyway. It does nothing for the anime though. Black didn't turn into a Super Saiyan Rose but into a regular Super Saiyan form in the manga so wouldn't that count as evidence that Super Saiyan Rose really is Black's version of Super Saiyan Blue afterall?

The way I see it in the Anime, is that Goku Black's base is already a SSJ3 in his base and becomes equivalent to a SSJB when he goes Rose.

My reasoning mostly comes from the fact that Goku Black was able easily kill Goku (In Zamasu's body) while being in base himself. Also the fact that he can apparently put up a fight against SSJB Vegeta in base and still not be over 10x stronger than him in his Super Saiyan Rose.

So he doesn't necessarily need to get even a 50x boost when he transforms.
Obviously, this is just a theory but how else would you explain the points that I brought up?

[ekrolo2]

Where's this talk of Black using SS in the manga coming from?

[Alruneia]

Where's this talk of Black using SS in the manga coming from?

Black uses SSJ1 in the manga. That's where it's coming from. Parts of the December chapter have leaked, and Blue Vegeta fights SSJ1 Black in it.
Sparks appear in Black's aura at one point, but his hair doesn't actually change styles outside of motion (from what we've seen), so I strongly believe (for now) that Black does not go SSJ2. We'll see when more appears, though.

[ekrolo2]

Where's this talk of Black using SS in the manga coming from?

Black uses SSJ1 in the manga. That's where it's coming from. Parts of the December chapter have leaked, and Blue Vegeta fights SSJ1 Black in it.
Sparks appear in Black's aura at one point, but his hair doesn't actually change styles outside of motion (from what we've seen), so I strongly believe (for now) that Black does not go SSJ2. We'll see when more appears, though.

Well, this fucks the scaling pretty damn good I'd say.

[Khin]

Regarding Black's base power - given that Zamasu retained his Ki after switching bodies with Goku, he most likely also retained his old power. Which is why he's very powerful in just in regular form and was able to kill regular Goku in Zamasu's body, who most likely also retained his power.

In the anime, he most likely start of as SS2-tier but reached to SS3-tier in his first appearance due to constant fighting with Trunks, and probably the other gods he killed.

What was the life risking attack the Kamehameha that broke his arms or the Kaioken?

It's certainly the Kaio-ken. The Jump preview mentioned that something strange happens to Merged Zamasu after his ''Ring of Light'' was broken by Goku's life risking attack. Said light was shown to broke when Goku used Kaio-ken and kicked Zamasu to the ground.

[buutenks]

I am curious how messy the PLs will be in the anime once the new arc kicks in. Hehe.

[Bullza]

I'm wondering that too. They're bringing back characters like Boo, Piccolo, #17 and Gohan possibly in his Mystic form so it should give us an idea again how characters compare.

Even if it were Mystic Gohan he should still be an absolute chump compared to Base Goku.

Hopefully they explain that Gohan did retain his former powers and at the same time proves to be stronger than Piccolo to at least but that whole Piccolo God level stuff to rest.

[buutenks]

As much as i would like to see the rest of the cast in the tourney. It will only cause more problems for the anime. I am 100% sure Toyotaru will be fine. Since he avoided the problem by making ssj1-3 be at Buu saga strength.

But anime, i can see it now, character x fights ssj2 Goku or ssj3 Goku, Goku somehow loses or w/e. Then Android 17 fights and wins ... Then its ZOMG, god level android 17...

Or worse, they make the cast fight ssj blue level opponents out of the blue similar to Trunks.

I am sure the anime will mess it up big time.

P.S. We should rename this thread to Manga power levels and just follow the manga for proper power scaling, cos the anime ones make 0 sense lol

[Hugo Boss]

In my scenario the Kaioken is limitless, has no ki drain and also no side effects. The regular Kaioken is none of these things.

Kaioken has high ki consumption and stress on his mind and body regardless of the level he uses. Note that Goku immediately lost his Super Saiyan Blue form as soon as he kicked Zamasu.

That's what I said.

The way you put is like the side effects of the kaioken would stop it from being an option in battle. Goku used it either way.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Kaioken has high ki consumption and stress on his mind and body regardless of the level he uses. Note that Goku immediately lost his Super Saiyan Blue form as soon as he kicked Zamasu.

That's what I said.

The way you put is like the side effects of the kaioken would stop it from being an option in battle. Goku used it either way.

No, what I said was the side effects of the Kaioken would prevent him from winning. Even if he managed to surpass Merged Zamasu briefly, he'd burn out too quickly to defeat him as Zamasu is immortal. However if he didn't have any sort of time or stamina limit and could sustain the Kaioken indefinitely, he could eventually beat Zamasu down until his body dispels and he takes on his ethereal form.

[buutenks]

Ok so this is how i see it:

ROF arc:

ssj3 Gotenks(for comparison)
base Goku/Freeza/Vegeta
ssg Goku
ssj blue Goku/Vegeta
Golden Freeza

u6 arc:
ssj3 Gotenks(for comparison)
base saiyans/assault form Frost
Final Form Frost
ssj1 Cabba
ssj1 Goku/Vegeta/Magetta
ssj2 Goku/Vegeta
ssj3 Goku
ssg Goku
Hit(initial)
ssj Blue Goku/Vegeta
Hit/kkx2 ssj blue Goku
kkx10 ssj blue Goku

FT arc:
base Black/ssg Goku/ssj2 Trunks(rage boost + zenkais)/Zamasu
Super Trunks
ssj blue Goku
ssj Rose Black
ssj blue Vegeta
kk ssj blue Goku
Merged Zamasu
Vegetto Blue/Spirit Trunks

I came to the conclusion above based on statements and a few feats, tho mostly statements.

[Bullza]

Does Black use Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 in the manga?

That you can never really tell makes the form probably the worst one of the lot.