Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Alright, new list for the Future Trunks Arc. Tell me what you guys think. 1 unit = SSG Goku.

Future Trunks Arc:
SSG Goku (BoG): 1
Beerus: 100
SSBlue Goku: 2.8
SSBlue Vegeta: 2.7
SSRose Black: 3.2
Future Zamasu: 2.2
SSJ2 Trunks: 2
SSBlue Goku (Rage boost): 3.5
Super Trunks: 3
SSRose Black (Zenkai): 3.6
Vegeta (Post RoSAT Rage boost): 4
SSBlue Goku: 4
SSRose Black (Scimitar): 4.2
SSRose Black (Scythe): 4.8
Merged Zamasu (Initial): 6
SSBlue Vegeta: 3.5
Arms Breaking Kamehameha: 7
SSBlue Goku (Kaioken): 8
Merged Zamasu: 60
Corrupted Zamasu (Light of Justice): 70
SSBlue Vegetto: 75
Power Weighted Zamasu: 75
Unstable Zamasu (Battered): 7.5
Spirit Trunks: 7.5

[Simere]

I'd been hearing about the two base theory long before that. It mainly stems from that Toriyama quote and "Saiyan beyond God".

Beforehand there were two bases in the sense there was the weak Base Goku and then the God level Base Goku after he'd absorbed it's power but it wasn't until the Piccolo vs Frost fight that this idea that he could freely switch between the two came about.

Maybe in this thread that's when, but I was reading arguments that he could switch over on /r/dbz before Super was even announced. It didn't have the "two base" moniker but the idea of choosing which form of ki to use was the same.

Even then, all Toriyama said that Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God and we see base from Goku beat a stronger than ever Freeza and it was major marketer point that he wouldn't need Super Saiyan. So how does that lead into the two base theory. It's actually the opposite.

Again that's where the "and" comes in. And other ands besides that. It wasn't just one thing. People would ask questions like "Can Goku still go regular Super Saiyan?" when we still didn't know the answer, and people would formulate theories based on what we knew. Some of it whole cloth. It was and is speculation. The idea that Goku could go normal Super Saiyan but was just choosing not to—choosing what ki to utilize— naturally extended to his base as well.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Has anyone else noticed that power progression has slowed down recently? Ever since the Frieza Arc it's slowed down a lot, with the exception of Goku going SSG.
For example, here's Goku's power levels from the start to the end of each arc, with increases rounded up slightly:
(Note that from the Cell arc onwards I'm using personal estimates)

Saiyan Arc: 416 to 32,000 (80x increase)
Frieza Arc: 32,000 to 150,000,000 (5,000x increase)
Androids/Cell Arc: 150,000,000 to 3,750,000,000 (25x increase)
Buu Arc: 3,750,000,000 to 42,000,000,000 (11.2x increase)

BoG Arc: 42,000,000,000 to 6,000,000,000,000 (145x increase)
F Arc: 6,000,000,000,000 to 10,500,000,000,000 (1.75x increase)
Tournament Arc: 10,500,000,000,000 to 150,000,000,000,000 (14.5x increase)
Future Trunks Arc: 150,000,000,000,000 to 240,000,000,000,000 (1.6x increase)

[Bullza]

It has been surprisingly slow since the Resurrection F. Back in DBZ they were getting more and more transformations per saga and each villain was fodder compared to the one that came next.

There's been three arcs in row now where Goku and Vegeta are still using Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Frieza is still kind of up there.

In the manga continuity up to yet from Beerus to Golden Frieza to Hit to the current Black the villains have steadily been getting weaker.

[Hugo Boss]

I think it is the opposite. Goku and Vegeta don't have anything stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, but they have been training and getting stronger all the time. It's only natural that their enemies get stronger too.

[Marlowe89]

I'll die of laughter if the opposite happens and it gets confirmed.

I mean, a God ki using base was already shown in Episode 20 so there's already a precedent for that interpretation before the U6 Tournament even started.

I'm almost willing to bet that we're gonna see characters like Gohan, Piccolo and/or Buu fighting on a level roughly comparable to base Goku or maybe even Super Saiyan Goku and people are still going to pretend to be surprised.

[ekrolo2]

Has anyone else noticed that power progression has slowed down recently? Ever since the Frieza Arc it's slowed down a lot, with the exception of Goku going SSG.
For example, here's Goku's power levels from the start to the end of each arc, with increases rounded up slightly:
(Note that from the Cell arc onwards I'm using personal estimates)

Saiyan Arc: 416 to 32,000 (80x increase)
Frieza Arc: 32,000 to 150,000,000 (5,000x increase)
Androids/Cell Arc: 150,000,000 to 3,750,000,000 (25x increase)
Buu Arc: 3,750,000,000 to 42,000,000,000 (11.2x increase)

BoG Arc: 42,000,000,000 to 6,000,000,000,000 (145x increase)
F Arc: 6,000,000,000,000 to 10,500,000,000,000 (1.75x increase)
Tournament Arc: 10,500,000,000,000 to 150,000,000,000,000 (14.5x increase)
Future Trunks Arc: 150,000,000,000,000 to 240,000,000,000,000 (1.6x increase)

If you notice, some new training method is usually to thank for why a fighter increases power highly and rapidly. The Saiyan arc had Goku on King Kai's planet, the Namek arc did have Zenkai but Goku still needed the gravity machine, he didn't improve much at all from sparring with Gohan and Piccolo but the ROSAT gave him a crazy boost, then training in the other world only made him sort of stronger than Gohan as he seemingly didn't have more than just lots of time and heavy weight training to do. Its pretty obvious that, if you ignore Super and GT, Goku and Vegeta are basically taped out by the Boo arc since they've got nothing to train harder with or something to boost them up. Until God and SS4.

[Bullza]

New episode.

Did Piccolo just sense Goku as a God? He definitely said Super Saiyan Blue and he and Gohan knew where he was to fly over to him.

Has Hit powered up? Goku couldn't do anything to do at all (in this episode) when Hit was using his timeskip, actually that was true back in the tournament though. Goku had to use Kaioken to get around it so it doesn't particularly mean he got more powerful. Still though Hit completely one shotted SSJB Goku so wouldn't that put him above.....practically everyone, nobody has done that to him yet. It's gotta put him above Black though right?

Looks like they fight more in the next episode so maybe that'll become more clear.

Also Herms made a tweet about Black and comments made about him from Toriyama that says Black can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku and then another with a slightly different colour. So Super Saiyan Rose definitely isn't just Black as a Super Saiyan but something greater.

[perucho1990]

With the feats Hit showed in this weeks episode, Is he above Black?

[Lord Beerus]

With the feats Hit showed in this weeks episode, Is he above Black?

At this stage, I definitely think so. This episode demonstrated just how broken his Time-Skip ability and how easily he easily could have decked Goku in the tournament if he went all out.

[Overlord78]

With the feats Hit showed in this weeks episode, Is he above Black?

Probably. He can apparently become intangible so I think Hit has too many abilities for Black to deal with.

[Bullza]

Well even ignoring what happened in this episode being as how they have a lengthier fight in the next episode so he isn't going to one shot him again....Hit is still giving SSJB Goku quite a bit of trouble and this Goku is supposed to be about as strong as SSJB Vegeta who made fairly easy work of SSJR Black with the Scimitar.

So I'd say Hit was at least more powerful than that but SSJR Black did power up further with the Scyth so whether Hit is above even that or not we'll see next episode.

Hit was someone that even when he wasn't using his killing techniques, Goku had to use the SSJB with Kaioken x10 to fight him so it wouldn't be farfetched for him to be above Black.

[Simere]

Piccolo said he stopped sensing his energy and figured he went SSB, but he knew where his energy was before it vanished.

With the feats Hit showed in this weeks episode, Is he above Black?

At this stage, I definitely think so. This episode demonstrated just how broken his Time-Skip ability and how easily he easily could have decked Goku in the tournament if he went all out.

Except that Goku's going to counter it. Next episode is where we'll see.

[Marlowe89]

Hit is a complicated character to rank. Even if he wasn't using his killing techniques during his U6 Tournament fight against Goku, both his performance and the dialogue in that battle leave little room to doubt he was going all-out in terms of sheer power output. I thought the narrative as a whole made it fairly obvious that Hit was an assassin who could mostly compete with someone of Goku's caliber due to a specific skillset (such as the Time-Skip ability) as opposed to a reliance on brute strength.

That being said, it does nothing to answer the questions brought about in tonight's episode. What was that strange new ability Hit used? Did Hit become stronger between then and now? Did his Time-Skip improve as well? Looks like I'll have to withhold on ranking him until this mini-arc is finished.

It's also somewhat baffling that Piccolo might be able to sense Super Saiyan Blue Goku now since there's definitely no distinct implication that he's a God level fighter. I'd assume it's because he has Kami within him and the writers had forgotten about that fact in previous episodes, or perhaps he sensed Goku moments before the transformation and was then able to deduce that Goku used Super Saiyan Blue from the hypothetical fact that he couldn't sense him anymore.

[HeroR]

New episode.

Did Piccolo just sense Goku as a God? He definitely said Super Saiyan Blue and he and Gohan knew where he was to fly over to him.

Has Hit powered up? Goku couldn't do anything to do at all (in this episode) when Hit was using his timeskip, actually that was true back in the tournament though. Goku had to use Kaioken to get around it so it doesn't particularly mean he got more powerful. Still though Hit completely one shotted SSJB Goku so wouldn't that put him above.....practically everyone, nobody has done that to him yet. It's gotta put him above Black though right?

Looks like they fight more in the next episode so maybe that'll become more clear.

Also Herms made a tweet about Black and comments made about him from Toriyama that says Black can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku and then another with a slightly different colour. So Super Saiyan Rose definitely isn't just Black as a Super Saiyan but something greater.

No, they couldn't sense Goku anymore and they assumed he was in his god form. So they can't sense god ki.

With the feats Hit showed in this weeks episode, Is he above Black?

At this stage, I definitely think so. This episode demonstrated just how broken his Time-Skip ability and how easily he easily could have decked Goku in the tournament if he went all out.

Hit didn't time-skip. Goku said that it wouldn't work anymore and Hit said that he wouldn't be that generous.

Hit is a complicated character to rank. Even if he wasn't using his killing techniques during his U6 Tournament fight against Goku, both his performance and the dialogue in that battle leave little room to doubt he was going all-out in terms of sheer power output. I thought the narrative as a whole made it fairly obvious that Hit was an assassin who could mostly compete with someone of Goku's caliber due to a specific skillset (such as the Time-Skip ability) as opposed to a reliance on brute strength.

That being said, it does nothing to answer the questions brought about in tonight's episode. What was that strange new ability Hit used? Did Hit become stronger between then and now? Did his Time-Skip improve as well? Looks like I'll have to withhold on ranking him until this mini-arc is finished.

It's also somewhat baffling that Piccolo might be able to sense Super Saiyan Blue Goku now since there's definitely no distinct implication that he's a God level fighter. I'd assume it's because he has Kami within him and the writers had forgotten about that fact in previous episodes, or perhaps he sensed Goku moments before the transformation and was then able to deduce that Goku used Super Saiyan Blue from the hypothetical fact that he couldn't sense him anymore.

He didn't. Piccolo specifically said that he couldn't sense Goku, his ki disappeared, so he must be using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So he isn't 'God level'. He as most likely tracking Goku after he disappeared and he knew he would be in danger since Hit was hunting him.

Hit stopped Goku's heart using a technique that seems to pierce through defense. Black could have done the same thing if he stabbed Goku in the heart, which he could have done many time over. In fact, Black would have killed Goku at least twice over if Goku didn't retreat and had outside help. So you can't used what Hit did and say that he much be stronger than Black, otherwise Sorbet is also stronger than Black since he pierced Goku's heart with a laser.

[ZombieVito]

Also Herms made a tweet about Black and comments made about him from Toriyama that says Black can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku and then another with a slightly different colour. So Super Saiyan Rose definitely isn't just Black as a Super Saiyan but something greater.

Thank god the anime didn't have this.

Now thanks to this the multiplier for Blue just increased over 400 times in the manga.

[OLKv3]

Also Herms made a tweet about Black and comments made about him from Toriyama that says Black can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku and then another with a slightly different colour. So Super Saiyan Rose definitely isn't just Black as a Super Saiyan but something greater.

Thank god the anime didn't have this.

Now thanks to this the multiplier for Blue just increased over 400 times in the manga.

Manga SSB is incredibly powerful, only makes sense that the villain has to copy it to stand a chance. Anime SSB is incredibly underpowered imo, makes god ki look like nothing special

[Marlowe89]

He didn't. Piccolo specifically said that he couldn't sense Goku, his ki disappeared, so he must be using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Yeah, that was my mistake. Somehow I was misreading "can't" as "can" when Piccolo said he couldn't sense Goku's ki.

But I'm definitely not convinced yet that Hit is physically stronger than Black. He's just a really good assassin.

[HeroR]

Manga SSB is incredibly powerful, only makes sense that the villain has to copy it to stand a chance. Anime SSB is incredibly underpowered imo, makes god ki look like nothing special

The manga just made the villains underpowered. It doesn't make the the form look more powerful. If Vegeta beat up Super Saiyan Rose like he did in the anime, then the form looks impressive. Beating up on a golden Super Saiyan Black isn't impressive.

He didn't. Piccolo specifically said that he couldn't sense Goku, his ki disappeared, so he must be using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Yeah, that was my mistake. Somehow I was misreading "can't" as "can" when Piccolo said he couldn't sense Goku's ki.

But I'm definitely not convinced yet that Hit is physically stronger than Black. He's just a really good assassin.

I'm not saying Hit is physical stronger than Black. I don't think he's physically stronger than Goku. He just has a technique that can bypass Goku's ki shield. Think of it like an armor piercing attack. Goku may have been able to dodge it, but he seemed baffled about why Hit could strike him from a distance. Plus, Goku is the type to let strikes him so he can learn from it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Until now I've been somewhat tolerant of Toyotaro's changes, but SSJ Black is just bullshit.