The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[hleV]

They didn't master SSJ.

Let me back track a little here

How did Goku manage to master the SSJ?

By staying in SSJ form?

I'm pretty sure training in the afterlife is better than that. In fact, one of the reasons Goku stayed in the afterlife was to train.

I disagree, he stayed in the afterlife because 1) to stop attracting danger to earth 2) to avaoid a peadefull life on earth, probably

Well, that's your opinion.

You still have yet to prove what super training conditions Goku had in the afterlife that Vegeta didn't.

I guess it's a matter of opinion, too. But, you know, training under Kaio, meeting various strong people, learning techniques, whatever other stuff the afterlife can offer.

Vegeta isn't that kind of a person to go into details. He was left in dust by Goku for the Nth time, so that was it for him.

Not wanting to go into detals? He praised Goku back as the one who always supasses him

Exactly.

when Goku praised Vegeta on his training.

Again, exactly. Goku was surprised that Vegeta had improved so much even on Earth's conditions while Goku did a fair training in the afterlife.

Vegeta wouldn't praised him otehrwise and be sure that Vegeta would have said something had he thought Goku's power up was due to unfair conditions and would have said it loudly.

It's not like Vegeta knows of the advantages of training in the afterlife. That's may be a reason why he treated Goku as superior to him - he may not have known that Goku had better conditions to train in.

Argument for what? I don't see an implication of Goku's ultimate superiority over Vegeta at the end of the series.

And I don't think that Goku was that much stronger (if at all) than Vegeta at the 28th Budokai.

If he was, than why didn't Goku look forward to fighting Vegeta in that tournament.

Because he was only thinking about Oob. A fresh strong fighter.

It's been clearly established that Goku had been bored these past years and the real reason he started training Uub wasn't to have a succesor as Earth's defender, but to finally have another opponent. Something that Vegeta obviously hadn't managed to become by that time. In the alternative ending of DB Toriyama drew for a special edition of the manga, he even shows Vegeta saying "one day I find a way to surpass you" meaning that in-universe and in the authors mind Vegeta was still weaker than Goku.

Goku being bored simply implies that he didn't have serious fights during those years. Vegeta didn't want to destroy Goku anymore, but as stated, was still intending to defeat him later. In fact, Vegeta might have planned on having an all-out battle with Goku in the 28th Budokai (the "we'll need the whole planet for our fight" is anime-only, right?), but Oob appeared and Goku went away. Vegeta not managing to become an opponent for Goku is only your opinion and definitely not an obvious thing. And it's not "one day I find a way to surpass you", but something like "One day, Kakarot, I'll show you defeat".

Anyway I'm done here, I feel like I've repeated the same argument over and over.
My mind won't change about Goku's training and his methods being more efficient and this being greatly backe up by the story. If people want to see it differently, that's their choice.

I guess it's good that you're done. All I wanted to prove is that your arguments aren't proving anything.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why are you trying to prove that Vegeta is the strongest in the end?

[Kaboom]

Does 17's much-vaunted 'Infinite Energy Reactor' run dry before 20 a'splodes?

The whole point of those reactors is that they don't run dry, isn't it? If 19 is able to absorb the artificial Ki of his fellow Androids, he's more likely to hit a limit eventually than 17 is to ever run out.

[FNF]

Vegeta was probably on Goku's ass by the end of Z. I also think he achieved SSjin3 judging by the Kanzenban ending.

[hleV]

Why are you trying to prove that Vegeta is the strongest in the end?

Sorry, what?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why are you trying to prove that Vegeta is the strongest in the end?

Sorry, what?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what you are trying to say?

[hleV]

Why are you trying to prove that Vegeta is the strongest in the end?

Sorry, what?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what you are trying to say?

Absolutely not.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Absolutely not.

OK then, my fault.

[Michsi]

I guess it's good that you're done. All I wanted to prove is that your arguments aren't proving anything.

If you say so.
I at least came up with arguments based on what we see in the story. I have yet to see anything as clear and obvious in Vegeta's favour , as Goku's training method for 1 year > Vegeta's training method for 2 years from the Cell Saga, other than Vegeta's feelings of rivalry....

Kinda ashamed that I replied again.

[hleV]

I have yet to see anything as clear and obvious in Vegeta's favour , as Goku's training method for 1 year > Vegeta's training method for 2 years from the Cell Saga, other than Vegeta's feelings of rivalry....

You ONLY have Goku coming up with a better training method ONCE. I believe I covered that up at the very beginning of our argument. Vegeta trained for a year with WORSE method, so it wasn't as efficient. Then he trained for another year ALONE, so it wasn't as efficient either. This doesn't prove Goku's ultimate superiority in training efficiency.

Basically the ROSAT training doesn't say a lot about how Goku and Vegeta's training under similar conditions would compare later, so you kind of don't have any arguments which I haven't thought about. Just some opinion-based assumptions.

I at least came up with arguments based on what we see in the story.

Based on what we see in the story, Goku and Vegeta (not counting SSJ3) were equals at the time of Pure Boo's defeat. They, if you ask me, remained pretty-much-equals till the end.

[Kaboom]

I think the argument is just about over now, right...?

[hleV]

I think the argument is just about over now, right...?

I realize that our argument may have prevented some different discussions, but hell, it's your fault for bringing up such all-in-all thread. I doubt we were going off-topic or breaking any rules.

[Michsi]

Based on what we see in the story, Goku and Vegeta (not counting SSJ3) were equals at the time of Pure Boo's defeat. They, if you ask me, remained pretty-much-equals till the end.

Doubt it, unless, Vegeta kept the power Babidi gave him that made him equal to SSJ 2 Goku, but that's not exactly a point in Vegeta's favour.

At the risk of this being redundant I feel I should explain better what is that I consider to be efficient training in case this failed the first few times.

Ignoring the additional year that Vegeta spent in the ROSAT, the sheer amount with which Goku surpassed Vegeta should be enough to rule out that this is supposed to be an accident or a one time deal, also since this "brilliance" is a recurring trait in Goku which, has been commented on again and again (I repeat, even by Vegeta himself). It's Goku ideas and mind set that I was calling attention to, him figuring out things that others don't. This doesn't happen only ONCE.
Even if both manage to reach SSJ 2 at one point , if it takes Goku one year and it takes Vegeta more years, that means Goku's training is more efficient.

As frustrating as it is, even Goku's status as MC is enough support this claim given that pretty much the entire story revolves around him being the best when it comes to fighting and not because of unfair advantages or whatever. Even Gohan, who supposedly surpasses him in strength, falls short compared to his father, since his greatest achievements as a fighter are all pretty much based on his heritage and potential alone.


Hopefully, I managed to explain it better this time.

[hleV]

if it takes Goku one year and it takes Vegeta more years, that means Goku's training is more efficient.

What did it take a year for Goku to do, that Vegeta done in more years? Achieving SSJ2 isn't a correct example here.
I still don't see how Goku's so superior to Vegeta in training efficiency if we exclude that single instance of Goku coming up with an idea to master SSJ and becoming OP by having another MSSJ to train with.

[Michsi]

What did it take a year for Goku to do, that Vegeta done in more years? Achieving SSJ2 isn't a correct example here.

SSJ 2 was just a hypothetical example. Replace SSJ2 with MSSJ and it's the same idea.


WHY exclude it. Why dismiss it as a one time only accident? It may be the only clear evidence, but IT IS there. Do we have one scene that proves the opposite? Starting out on the same level, same chances, same conditions, same duration, but reaching completely different results?


Even if he trained alone, he would have still been above Vegeta in strength since he came up idea of the MSSJ. Having Gohan there was just an added bonus.

I repeat, what I am pointing out here is how Goku was the one to figure out what to do in order to achieve MSSJ. How he started out on the same path as Vegeta but, unlike him, saw the faults and started over again. It's THIS part of him that makes Goku , well , Goku and it's been show time and time again throughout the story in different instances.

Does this mean that every single one if his training sessions is accompanied by a stroke of genius? Probably not. Does this mean he thinks things through when he does train, more so than others? Probably yes.

[hleV]

I repeat, what I am pointing out here is how Goku was the one to figure out what to do in order to achieve MSSJ.

Vegeta wasn't even going for MSSJ the first time he entered ROSAT. It's not like he didn't know how. Once Vegeta figured out Goku's training, I believe he went for MSSJ too the 2nd year in ROSAT. Just that the outcome wasn't as great due to having no partner to train with.

How he started out on the same path as Vegeta but, unlike him, saw the faults and started over again. It's THIS part of him that makes Goku , well , Goku and it's been show time and time again throughout the story in different instances.

Because of a SINGLE INSTANCE Goku went far ahead of Vegeta, which didn't let Vegeta close the gap between them later. In any case they've both ended equal or pretty close at the time of Boo's defeat (and IMHO at the very end of DB).

Like I said, what you have is not enough to prove or at least imply your theory to be true. While it is a possibility, it remains a possibility. And you have nothing else.

I'm here not to prove my truths, but to deny your truths.

[Michsi]

Vegeta wasn't even going for MSSJ the first time he entered ROSAT. It's not like he didn't know how. Once Vegeta figured out Goku's training, I believe he went for MSSJ too the 2nd year in ROSAT. Just that the outcome wasn't as great due to having no partner to train with.

Which all but proves Goku's superiority, since he figures out something that Vegeta didn't. Through Trunks we find out that Vegeta was even aware to some degree that the path they had taken wasn't the optimum but he doesn't do anything to change his method.

I repeat, for the probably 3rd time, training alone was HIS choice. His chosen training method. Therefore, his training method IS less efficient.

Because of a SINGLE INSTANCE Goku went far ahead of Vegeta, which didn't let Vegeta close the gap between them later. In any case they've both ended equal or pretty close at the time of Boo's defeat (and IMHO at the very end of DB).

You really like to point the "single instance" bit. Like we honestly need more than one example per story to make this legit.
I still haven't seen something to disprove it.

And , out of curiosity, what makes you think they are equals? (excluding the SSJ3) He turned to Babidi to close the gap between their SSJ 2 forms (which sorta implies it wasn't small ) but he probably lost that once the spell wore off. How are they equals?

Like I said, what you have is not enough to prove or at least imply your theory to be true. While it is a possibility, it remains a possibility. And you have nothing else.

I have an entire story called Dragon Ball that kinda leans everything in Goku's favour.

I'm here not to prove my truths, but to deny your truths.

Funny since denying my truth automatically proves yours, but oh well.

You are free deny it all you want, to believe what you want. It's your choice. But I think I can safely say I'm not by far the only one who came to this conclusion with the RoSAt training scene in the Cell Saga.
Without looking too deep into every single detail about the situation, the author's intent with this scene was clear.

[Kaboom]

It seems to me like Vegeta trains harder while Goku trains smarter. Sometimes one works better than the other depending on the circumstances.

This is going a little too far off-topic, though. So if you guys want to continued this speculation and debate, would you mind creating a new thread dedicated to it?

[hleV]

Vegeta wasn't even going for MSSJ the first time he entered ROSAT. It's not like he didn't know how. Once Vegeta figured out Goku's training, I believe he went for MSSJ too the 2nd year in ROSAT. Just that the outcome wasn't as great due to having no partner to train with.

Which all but proves Goku's superiority, since he figures out something that Vegeta didn't. Through Trunks we find out that Vegeta was even aware to some degree that the path they had taken wasn't the optimum but he doesn't do anything to change his method.

I already covered that that part isn't proving Goku's ultimate superiority over Vegeta in training efficiency. His method was enough for him to be the strongest around at the time, though, so it wasn't that bad, if not Cell transforming and Goku ending up much stronger.

I repeat, for the probably 3rd time, training alone was HIS choice. His chosen training method. Therefore, his training method IS less efficient.

I really don't understand why this specific thing matters as I already told you it doesn't prove Goku's ultimate superiority over Vegeta in training efficiency.

Because of a SINGLE INSTANCE Goku went far ahead of Vegeta, which didn't let Vegeta close the gap between them later. In any case they've both ended equal or pretty close at the time of Boo's defeat (and IMHO at the very end of DB).

You really like to point the "single instance" bit. Like we honestly need more than one example per story to make this legit.
I still haven't seen something to disprove it.

Yes, we honestly need more than one example per story since Vegeta didn't end up miles away from Goku later.

And , out of curiosity, what makes you think they are equals? (excluding the SSJ3) He turned to Babidi to close the gap between their SSJ 2 forms (which sorta implies it wasn't small ) but he probably lost that once the spell wore off. How are they equals?

Why would he lose the portion of his potential he got unlocked by Babidi? I specifically added the "close to" next to "equals" in case you decided to go with Vegeta losing the powers he gained thanks to Babidi.

Like I said, what you have is not enough to prove or at least imply your theory to be true. While it is a possibility, it remains a possibility. And you have nothing else.

I have an entire story called Dragon Ball that kinda leans everything in Goku's favour.

Yes, Goku's the hero, what about it? Gohan's stronger than Goku, why can't Vegeta be at least close to or equal to Goku?

I'm here not to prove my truths, but to deny your truths.

Funny since denying my truth automatically proves yours, but oh well.

Yes, but I realize that it's a matter of opinion. I'm just denying your assumptions about certain things, which, according to you, can be taken as facts/implications.

You are free deny it all you want, to believe what you want. It's your choice. But I think I can safely say I'm not by far the only one who came to this conclusion with the RoSAt training scene in the Cell Saga.

I don't have a problem with people having their opinion, as long as they don't claim stuff the way you do.

Without looking too deep into every single detail about the situation, the author's intent with this scene was clear.

I disagree.

If you have anything new to support your opinion, then I agree to have a new thread to continue our argument in. I don't think that's the case, though.

[Michsi]

It seems to me like Vegeta trains harder while Goku trains smarter. Sometimes one works better than the other depending on the circumstances.

I'll settle with this. Basically what I wanted to say, since I believe training smart is ,under most circumstances, more efficient.

don't have a problem with people having their opinion, as long as they don't claim stuff the way you do.

The way I do? All I said is that we have proof to support one case and none (at least that clear) to support the other?
Simply with what's in the story.

Edit (since this isn't worth making another post)

One more thing then

don't have a problem with people having their opinion, as long as they don't claim stuff the way you do.

Ussj Future Trunks wrote:
goku trains much more efficiently

That's not true.

You claimed stuff just the same way, so don't start accusing other people.