Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

The fact that beerus doesnt think that ssj1 goku can defeat freeza shows that beerus either isnt able to accurately judge power levels or that he is way overestimating freeza.

So him saying base goku cant do it doesnt hold much weight.

Plus,beerus has never seen or sensed freeza at 100% power,so his opinion shouldnt hold much weight.

[ZombieVito]

The fact that beerus doesnt think that ssj1 goku can defeat freeza shows that beerus either isnt able to accurately judge power levels or that he is way overestimating freeza.

So him saying base goku cant do it doesnt hold much weight.

Plus,beerus has never seen or sensed freeza at 100% power,so his opinion shouldnt hold much weight.

This again? It was a mistranslation....

[MaGyunia]

It's kind of funny and interesting that the recent stuff they've thrown our way (BoG, Fukkastu no F, DBSuper) touched on material which hadn't been discussed for over a decade, and actually closer to two decades, namely Goku's power (in his base form or in his Super Saiya-jin form) when compared to Freeza on Namek.

All of a sudden we find ourselves discussing just how the power of someone the likes of Freeza in his old Namek days, not to mention the rest of the comparisons, lists and rankings made of the most recently introduced characters and stages.

If you look at it, Freeza is so charismatic a villain in the franchise that in EVERYTHING they released anime or manga-wise after 11 years of inactivity (2008 Special, Episode of Bardock, BoG, Fukkastu no F and DBSuper) that he's either mentioned, seen in visual displays or, in fact, have an entire Movie dedicated entirely to him, featuring an unprecedented increase in power (so great that it is still a little hard to believe or grasp, in fact). Besides, the recent (and utterly successful) introduction of Beerus into the franchise led to the further establishment of links between not only Beerus and previously unexplained events involving the Kaioshin and Kaiou-sama, but also with the Saiya-jin and Freeza himself. One could argue about their obvious similarities here and there, but forcibly matching his degree of power to his intended degree of protagonism in this full-fledged return can pose some issues: I mean, Freeza went from someone who was below any regular Super Saiya-jin, episodes later any regular Super Saiya-jin was easily beated by #16, #17, #18, Piccolo or Cell, Cell was smashed by Super Saiya-jin Dai Ni Dankai Vegeta, his son his even more powerful than him but is no match for Cell in his perfect form; it takes Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan to finish Cell off, but in the Majin Buu arc even Goku and Vegeta, as Super Saiya-jin 2 themselves, and beyond Gohan at the Cell Games, are completely outmatched by Gotenks, Vegitto, Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, and then all of these are outmatched by Beerus, Whis, Vados, Champa, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta - after ALL of this, after so many years of constant fighting, development and achievement of new transformation and insane amounts of power by so many different warriors, good and evil, Freeza trains for four months and all of a sudden he skips it all and skyrockets to the level and tier of Beerus, Whis, Vados, Champa, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta.

[Pannaliciour]

If freaking Captain Ginyu can near accurately guess Goku's power level when he's suppressed, I'm gonna go with the several dozen million year old god of destruction being able to guess relatively close as well.

Wow people, just wow. If beerus is that good in guessing somebody's power level, why was he surprised by ssj3? He is a god right? Couldn't he just feel the KI inside of goku.

Because suppressing Ki is completely different from an actual transformation. Ginyu was able to accurately predict Goku's power despite his suppressing, but he couldn't predict Goku's Kaioken because that also works differently from just suppressing Ki. Beerus can also see or guess a person's real power within their current form, but he can't really predict transformations. And arguing that Beerus could even do what Ginyu could regarding judging a fighter doesn't make much sense.

If Kaioken works different than supressing ki, it means that beerus , like Ginyu, can be wrong. Because theoreticaly goku can pull out a kaioken times 20 in base and so be stronger than freeza?!

The fact that beerus doesnt think that ssj1 goku can defeat freeza shows that beerus either isnt able to accurately judge power levels or that he is way overestimating freeza.

So him saying base goku cant do it doesnt hold much weight.

Plus,beerus has never seen or sensed freeza at 100% power,so his opinion shouldnt hold much weight.

This again? It was a mistranslation....

In anime it was a mistranslation but in the manga however Beerus did say that he now understand how goku manage to defeat freeza the moment goku turns ssj2. You can interpret that ssj1 wasn't enough

[MaGyunia]

Don't double-post. It's against the acceptable rules.

[Kamiccolo9]

Don't double-post. It's against the acceptable rules.

So is mini-modding. If your entire post consists of informing someone else about the rules, without adding anything to the discussion, it's best to just use the report button.

On topic, as a professional historian, a clear, direct statement ALWAYS trumps an implication when looking at sources. Beerus says, pretty clearly, that base Goku couldn't beat Freeza. That is much more clear than extrapolating extra meanings from a vague dismissal by Vegeta and applying it to characters that weren't even involved with that conversation.

And, as a writer, albeit not typically in fiction, if newer material contradicts older material, the newer material typically takes precedence. Every other franchise on the planet works this way. I see no reason to treat Dragon Ball any differently.

[MaGyunia]

So is mini-modding. If your entire post consists of informing someone else about the rules, without adding anything to the discussion, it's best to just use the report button.

Quite in fact, as you may know yourself, my posts usually consist of huge amounts of well-conceived texts covering many different themes within the same post, and I've been commended on adding quite a lot to the discussions. When I broke the rules (I myself double-posted several times months ago) at the beginning everyone was criticizing me and reminding me about the rules, I thought it wasn't that big a deal and I was just trying to help.

[Pannaliciour]

Don't double-post. It's against the acceptable rules.

So is mini-modding. If your entire post consists of informing someone else about the rules, without adding anything to the discussion, it's best to just use the report button.

On topic, as a professional historian, a clear, direct statement ALWAYStrumps an implication when looking at sources. Beerus says, pretty clearly, that base Goku couldn't beat Freeza. That is much more clear than extrapolating extra meanings from a vague dismissal by Vegeta and applying it to characters that weren't even involved with that conversation.

And, as a writer, albeit not typically in fiction, if newer material contradicts older material, the newer material typically takes precedence. Every other franchise on the planet works this way. I see no reason to treat Dragon Ball any differently.

yes you are right, but the diffrents between dbz and other fiction is that they have ki (supression) but more important is that Beerus didn't say in your base you are weaker than freeza but in your current state (that also can mean supress state). Like i sad before going by that kind of statement, freeza soldiers are stronger than future trunks, Ginyu is stronger than vegeta and Piccolo fused with nail or better yet nobody knew that Cell wasn't going all out against Goku: the perfect cell 100% power up. And that wasn't a transformation. Like i sad before never judge a book by its cover.

[singsing]

Don't double-post. It's against the acceptable rules.

So is mini-modding. If your entire post consists of informing someone else about the rules, without adding anything to the discussion, it's best to just use the report button.

On topic, as a professional historian, a clear, direct statement ALWAYStrumps an implication when looking at sources. Beerus says, pretty clearly, that base Goku couldn't beat Freeza. That is much more clear than extrapolating extra meanings from a vague dismissal by Vegeta and applying it to characters that weren't even involved with that conversation.

And, as a writer, albeit not typically in fiction, if newer material contradicts older material, the newer material typically takes precedence. Every other franchise on the planet works this way. I see no reason to treat Dragon Ball any differently.

yes you are right, but the diffrents between dbz and other fiction is that they have ki (supression) but more important is that Beerus didn't say in your base you are weaker than freeza but in your current state (that also can mean supress state). Like i sad before going by that kind of statement, freeza soldiers are stronger than future trunks, Ginyu is stronger than vegeta and Piccolo fused with nail or better yet nobody knew that Cell wasn't going all out against Goku: the perfect cell 100% power up. And that wasn't a transformation. Like i sad before never judge a book by its cover.

So what, in your mind, was everyone working on Dragon Ball thinking when they decided to add that statement in multiple times with no contradiction? "Hey Joe, wanna fuck with the fanbase super hard?" "Fuck yea Jim! Any ideas?" "We know they love power levels, let's make a clear statement about power levels, but in reality it's actually false! They'll love it!"

[Pantalones]

more important is that Beerus didn't say in your base you are weaker than freeza but in your current state (that also can mean supress state).

That's because "base form" isn't a term used in the actual series, it's only used by fans. Just like "zenkai" for the near-death boosts. So saying "your current state" is about as close as they'd ever get to specifying base Goku, especially since Beerus hadn't seen Super Saiyan yet at this point so he wouldn't know to specify "non-Super Saiyan" or "without going Super Saiyan" like one of the Saiyans themselves might say. That's also why Beerus is surprised by SSj3 -- he didn't even know Goku had one transformation up until he showed them off, let alone three!

Also, Goku's response to that statement wasn't just to power up in his base form, it was to go Super Saiyan... which seems like Goku is pretty much saying "no, I may not be powerful enough to beat Freeza in my base form, but I have Super Saiyan which puts me way beyond Freeza now." If being clearly stronger than 100% Freeza in base (without Kaio-Ken) was within Goku's power he would've powered up in his base form first, Beerus would've been all "ah, so that's how you beat Freeza," and then Goku would reveal that his power goes to an even higher level with the transformations.

[MaGyunia]

That's because "base form" isn't a term used in the actual series, it's only used by fans.

By base form it's become, throughout the years, universally accepted within the fandom that it refers to a Saiya-jin's normal, non-Super Saiya-jin stage (and, for that matter, without using Kaio-Ken or any other potential power-enhancing technique either). The term will need to be reconsidered now that Goku (and Vegeta, for that matter) will have the power and abilities of Super Saiya-jin God without physically transforming into anything, so it's really debatable whether we should continue to use "base form" to refer to Goku's and Vegeta's non-physically-Super Saiya-jin-transformed states in Freeza's arc within DBSuper or in Fukaktsu no F. In fact, the correct term to refer to that particular stage (incorporation of SSJG's abilities and power even without physically transforming into anything) is Saiya-jin beyond God.

Regardless of the way Vegeta will achieve Super Saiya-jin God himself, either through the ritual or through any other method, I see it as a logical pre-requisite to go through the sequence of transformations and power-ups seen in BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper, as in: Super Saiya-jin God, then Saiya-jin beyond God, and finally Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin. If Vegeta doesn't achieve, at some point, the SSJG stage just like Goku did, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to be able to reach the Saiya-jin beyond God stage, let alone the SSJGSSJ transformation.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's because "base form" isn't a term used in the actual series, it's only used by fans. Just like "zenkai" for the near-death boosts. So saying "your current state" is about as close as they'd ever get to specifying base Goku, especially since Beerus hadn't seen Super Saiyan yet at this point so he wouldn't know to specify "non-Super Saiyan" or "without going Super Saiyan" like one of the Saiyans themselves might say. That's also why Beerus is surprised by SSj3 -- he didn't even know Goku had one transformation up until he showed them off, let alone three!

In the series, they are using the term "regular state" when talking about what we call "base form".

[singsing]

That's because "base form" isn't a term used in the actual series, it's only used by fans.

By base form it's become, throughout the years, universally accepted within the fandom that it refers to a Saiya-jin's normal, non-Super Saiya-jin stage (and, for that matter, without using Kaio-Ken or any other potential power-enhancing technique either).

That's great and all, but you replied to a person specifically saying that it's used only in the fandom, and not in the actual series.

[Pannaliciour]

more important is that Beerus didn't say in your base you are weaker than freeza but in your current state (that also can mean supress state).

That's because "base form" isn't a term used in the actual series, it's only used by fans. Just like "zenkai" for the near-death boosts. So saying "your current state" is about as close as they'd ever get to specifying base Goku, especially since Beerus hadn't seen Super Saiyan yet at this point so he wouldn't know to specify "non-Super Saiyan" or "without going Super Saiyan" like one of the Saiyans themselves might say. That's also why Beerus is surprised by SSj3 -- he didn't even know Goku had one transformation up until he showed them off, let alone three!

Also, Goku's response to that statement wasn't just to power up in his base form, it was to go Super Saiyan... which seems like Goku is pretty much saying "no, I may not be powerful enough to beat Freeza in my base form, but I have Super Saiyan which puts me way beyond Freeza now." If being clearly stronger than 100% Freeza in base (without Kaio-Ken) was within Goku's power he would've powered up in his base form first, Beerus would've been all "ah, so that's how you beat Freeza," and then Goku would reveal that his power goes to an even higher level with the transformations.

No you are wrong! The reason that goku turns ssj is because Beerus kind of ask for it. (Look in the topic fact checker eps. 05)

Minute: 6
Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”

Remember it was a fight against Beerus and not freeza. Goku doesn't have to prove anything that his base is stronger than Freeza because that will not get him the win against Beerus.

And do you see wat Beerus said?
“You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now" it looks like Beerus it not reading his Ki just judging his looks and see his black hair and not ssj hair (wat Whis showed him).

And dbz manga speaks about "normal condition" when refering to base-form:

(Scanslation link removed by moderator)

Just give me one good reason why Beerus can't be wrong about Goku not defeating Freeza. Every dbz character that starts a fight is wrong. Freeza-goku, gohan-fat buu, android 19,20-goku, Cell-gohan, vegeta-Cell. Its because you must never underestemate your challanger and so never judge a book by its cover. It will however build up the fight more.

[Hugo Boss]

Just give me one good reason why Beerus can't be wrong about Goku not defeating Freeza.

Because until now there is nothing indicating Beerus was wrong. If that was the case, there would be something implying it. You may not like it, because the original content left an impression on you, but in the Battle of Gods' movie and in Dragon Ball Super, Goku can't defeat Freeza without Super Saiyan before experiencing Super Saiyan God.

[FortuneSSJ]

Now thanks to Toei, we finally have the confirmation that Goku is stronger than Krillin.
Krillin is still the strongest earthling though.

[AvatarReiko]

I have never really brought into the whole Goku being weaker than Frieza in base. Sure, Beerus said so but I extremely doubt that Goku was at his maximum base power when Beerus examined his "current state". Goku was literally just standing about doing nothing. The Z-senshu do not walk about their daily lives at maximum power and they only really raise their power levels when they fight. Frieza's goons read Future Trunks' PL as mere 5 when they initally scanned him, yet he was still able to take them all out, which if it were 5, he would not have been able to do. Obviously, he could increase it. This was also shown on Namek where the Ginyu forced measured Goku's PL as 5,000, which was nowhere near his max of 90,000

[Hugo Boss]

I have never really brought into the whole Goku being weaker than Freeza in base. Sure, Beerus said so but I extremely doubt that Goku was at his maximum base power when Beerus examined his "current state". Goku was literally just standing about doing nothing. The Z-senshu do not walk about their daily lives at maximum power and they only really raise their power levels when they fight. Freeza's goons read Future Trunks' PL as mere 5 when they initally scanned him, yet he was still able to take them all out, which if it were 5, he would not have been able to do. Obviously, he could increase it. This was also shown on Namek where the Ginyu forced measured Goku's PL as 5,000, which was nowhere near his max of 90,000

This is the kind of stuff that is missing if you want to back-up the theory that a Saiyan can defeat Freeza without transforming. Dragon Ball Super makes pretty clear that, after Goku went Super Saiyan, Beerus understood how Goku was able to defeat Freeza.

[Doctor.]

Now with Vegeta seemingly unlocking Super Saiyan Blue without the ritual, the theory that enraged!Vegeta unlocked his portion of the SSG power now holds more weight, right?

[LightBing]

Now with Vegeta seemingly unlocking Super Saiyan Blue without the ritual, the theory that enraged!Vegeta unlocked his portion of the SSG power now holds more weight, right?

I would say it's because Vegeta participated in the ritual. Makes more sense than it being uncovered in the rage attack. We should find out very soon.