The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Cursed Lemon]

He does have that power. It was just dormant, and didn't get drawn out permanently until the Buu Arc.

Which is fine, but his power level is his power level.

[Kamiccolo9]

He does have that power. It was just dormant, and didn't get drawn out permanently until the Buu Arc.

Which is fine, but his power level is his power level.

And power levels change. All the time. Especially Gohan's; see fight with Raditz, fight with Nappa, fight with Freeza...Gohan is known for his rage boosts.

[Cursed Lemon]

And power levels change. All the time. Especially Gohan's; see fight with Raditz, fight with Nappa, fight with Freeza...Gohan is known for his rage boosts.

Okay, let's put it another way.

His potential is his potential. And Gohan's potential obliterated Cell at half-strength.

[Kamiccolo9]

And power levels change. All the time. Especially Gohan's; see fight with Raditz, fight with Nappa, fight with Freeza...Gohan is known for his rage boosts.

Okay, let's put it another way.

His potential is his potential.

And we know his potential wasn't fully brought out until the Buu Arc. So why couldn't he have had a rage boost against Cell?

[Cursed Lemon]

And we know his potential wasn't fully brought out until the Buu Arc. So why couldn't he have had a rage boost against Cell?

The question was whether or not Gohan is that much stronger than Cell.

He is.

[Kamiccolo9]

And we know his potential wasn't fully brought out until the Buu Arc. So why couldn't he have had a rage boost against Cell?

The question was whether or not Gohan is that much stronger than Cell.

He is.[/quote]

This "rage boost" thing is silly.

A person cannot draw more power than they actually have. That's just...logic.

You brought up the rage boost thing. I was just carrying on with that.

And nothing indicates that. Gohan was losing throughout the entire beam struggle, while Cell was laughing his head off. Cell casually incapacitates Gohan with one blast. And only Vegeta's intervention allowed him to win. Sure, Gohan may be stronger, but nothing prevents Cell from being superior.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Cell easily crippled Gohan with a casual finger blast and was dominating the crap out of Gohan in that very short beam struggle until Gohan got a rage boost and Cell got distracted. The rage boost made it so that his power wasn't half anymore. Also, it was implied that even a rage boosted Gohan wouldn't have been able to take out Cell without the distraction.

This "rage boost" thing is silly.

A person cannot draw more power than they actually have. That's just...logic.

Too bad the Daizenshuu says he was stronger because of anger. Gohan's also gotten rage boosts before in the past soooooooooooo...

[Cursed Lemon]

Regardless of whether Gohan uses more of his power when he's angry, it's still Gohan's strength. It isn't magically gifted to him out of thin air.

Therefore, Gohan IS that much stronger than Cell, even if he holds back a lot. He was that much stronger than Cell without his (second) rage boost.

[Kamiccolo9]

Regardless of whether Gohan uses more of his power when he's angry, it's still Gohan's strength. It isn't magically gifted to him out of thin air.

Therefore, Gohan IS that much stronger than Cell, even if he holds back a lot.

By that logic, Saiyan Arc Gohan was stronger than Freeza. Because the dormant power is all there, he just can't draw on it.

[Cursed Lemon]

By that logic, Saiyan Arc Gohan was stronger than Freeza. Because the dormant power is all there, he just can't draw on it.

First of all, uh, no.

Second of all, whose logic is it? Gohan can only bring out as much power as he actually has. He didn't ACTUALLY have the power to beat Freeza on Namek - Goku did, though.

[Kamiccolo9]

By that logic, Saiyan Arc Gohan was stronger than Freeza. Because the dormant power is all there, he just can't draw on it.

First of all, uh, no.

Second of all, whose logic is it? Gohan can only bring out as much power as he actually has. He didn't ACTUALLY have the power to beat Freeza on Namek - Goku did, though.

Gohan didn't magically get more potential. As you said earlier, potential is potential. It doesn't change.

Gohan couldn't access all his power at will until the Buu Arc. This is shown numerous times throughout the series. So why should we count power that he can only use under the most extreme circumstances when comparing his general strength to another character?

[Cursed Lemon]

Gohan didn't magically get more potential. As you said earlier, potential is potential. It doesn't change.

Gohan couldn't access all his power at will until the Buu Arc. This is shown numerous times throughout the series. So why should we count power that he can only use under the most extreme circumstances when comparing his general strength to another character?

First of all, I absolutely do not consider his beam struggle desperation as a "rage boost" - I'll reserve that term solely for his going SSJ2 to begin with.

Secondly, who cares how he goes about utilizing his strength? If Freeza never powered up to 100% and instead beat Goku and the others at 50%, was non-SSJ Goku "almost as strong as Freeza" on the record books?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Regardless of whether Gohan uses more of his power when he's angry, it's still Gohan's strength. It isn't magically gifted to him out of thin air.

Therefore, Gohan IS that much stronger than Cell, even if he holds back a lot. He was that much stronger than Cell without his (second) rage boost.

We are aware, but Gohan has to be angry enough to use it. Cell would win in a fight if Gohan was not angry.

[Cursed Lemon]

We are aware, but Gohan has to be angry enough to use it. Cell would win in a fight if Gohan was not angry.

If this statement is actually saying, "Cell beats SSJ Gohan", well then of course.

I'm talking about SSJ2 Gohan, circa Cell Games.

[Kamiccolo9]

Gohan didn't magically get more potential. As you said earlier, potential is potential. It doesn't change.

Gohan couldn't access all his power at will until the Buu Arc. This is shown numerous times throughout the series. So why should we count power that he can only use under the most extreme circumstances when comparing his general strength to another character?

First of all, I absolutely do not consider his beam struggle desperation as a "rage boost" - I'll reserve that term solely for his going SSJ2 to begin with.

Secondly, who cares how he goes about utilizing his strength? If Freeza never powered up to 100% and instead beat Goku and the others at 50%, was non-SSJ Goku "almost as strong as Freeza" on the record books?

I'll admit, your first point is a possibility.
As for your second point, however, you would then have to consider Cell's maximum potential strength as well, if you're counting dormant power. Cell is capable of zenkais, so he has hidden reserves as well. This is why dormant power shouldn't be used when comparing general strengths. Everyone has it, and, aside from Vegeta and Gohan, their reserves are unknown. That's why you should compare the power that was used at will, not the inconsistent boosts that are given from extreme emotional states.

As for your Freeza example, Freeza was capable of utilizing that power at will. Gohan was not. Gohan, as a FPSSJ, was weaker than Perfect Cell. He then became a SSJ2, which is 2x the regular SSJ. Cell, upon his regeneration, received a power boost "like Son Gohan." Assuming the boost was roughly equal, meaning a 2x boost, he would be stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. Cell's attitude would indicate that he wasn't afraid of taking on SSJ2 Gohan either, even before crippling him.

[Cursed Lemon]

When I said "potential," I meant present potential. DBZ characters have practically no limit on their strength if they keep training and improving, but at any one moment they have a power cap. A zenkai is an increase in a character's maximum limit, no different than training.

And why in the world would a zenkai give Cell a SSJ2-like boost? That's preposterous and unprecedented, especially considering a crippled Gohan blew him to smithereens.

[Kamiccolo9]

When I said "potential," I meant present potential. DBZ characters have practically no limit on their strength if they keep training and improving, but at any one moment they have a power cap. A zenkai is an increase in a character's maximum limit, no different than training.

And why in the world would a zenkai give Cell a SSJ2-like boost? That's preposterous and unprecedented, especially considering a crippled Gohan blew him to smithereens.

Who knows why it would give him a SSJ2 boost? All we know is that it did. He said that he had powered up "like Son Gohan," and he had the SSJ2 aura. Now, you tell me what the logical conclusion here is.

And, all things considering, a 2x zenkai is really small by the standards of this series. Remember Vegeta going from 30 thousand-ish to being able to fight First Form Freeza? Or Goku going from 90 thousand to 3 million?

[TheMightyOzaru]

We are aware, but Gohan has to be angry enough to use it. Cell would win in a fight if Gohan was not angry.

If this statement is actually saying, "Cell beats SSJ Gohan", well then of course.

I'm talking about SSJ2 Gohan, circa Cell Games.

Super Perfect Cell has proven himself superior to SSJ2 Gohan. Gohan had to be angry to kill him.

[Cursed Lemon]

SPC proved he could get out-Kamehameha'd by an injured, one-armed SSJ2 Gohan, that is the only thing he showed.

And isn't the consensus around here that zenkais are mostly useless once these levels of power are achieved?

[Kamiccolo9]

SPC proved he could get out-Kamehameha'd by an injured, one-armed SSJ2 Gohan, that is the only thing he showed.

And isn't the consensus around here that zenkais are mostly useless once these levels of power are achieved?

When distracted, and by an enraged SSJ2.

They are negligible for the Saiyans after the Freeza arc. Cell, however, was noted to have a huge power up from his. One, which has been noted, was compared to Gohan's transformation.