Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Faisal Shourov]

Goku isn't weaker than Vegeta and the powerscale hasn't changed. There isn't any reason that Vegeta would have lost his mutated SSJ2 that he showed against Beerus.

Super Saiyan God doesn't multiply off of the Super Saiyan forms, so I'm not seeing how Black having SSJ would change the powerscale. It multiplies off of a Saiyan's base strength. SSB and Rose is simply going Super Saiyan while using Super Saiyan God.

Super Saiyan=50xbase
Super Saiyan 2=2xSuper Saiyan
Super Saiyan 3=4xSuper Saiyan 2
Quake of fury SSJ2=600xSuper Saiyan
Super Saiyan God=200,000xbase
Super Saiyan Blue=10xSuper Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Rose=3,900xbase

Future Trunks arc Base Goku: 32,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 1,625,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 3,250,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 13,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 6,500,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 65,500,000,000,000,000,000


Base Goku Black: 16,000,000,000,000,000
Base Goku Black(Post training): 18,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku Black: 900,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 70,200,000,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks arc Base Vegeta: 32,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1,625,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta(Quake of fury): 975,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 65,500,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Rose's multiplier isn't anywhere near SSB. SSR Black wasn't that much stronger than Goku and Vegeta despite his base form being hundreds of times stronger.

Did you just pull these numbers out of your rear?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Did you just pull these numbers out of your rear?

We already know the answer. (Yes)

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Goku isn't weaker than Vegeta and the powerscale hasn't changed. There isn't any reason that Vegeta would have lost his mutated SSJ2 that he showed against Beerus.

Super Saiyan God doesn't multiply off of the Super Saiyan forms, so I'm not seeing how Black having SSJ would change the powerscale. It multiplies off of a Saiyan's base strength. SSB and Rose is simply going Super Saiyan while using Super Saiyan God.

Super Saiyan=50xbase
Super Saiyan 2=2xSuper Saiyan
Super Saiyan 3=4xSuper Saiyan 2
Quake of fury SSJ2=600xSuper Saiyan
Super Saiyan God=200,000xbase
Super Saiyan Blue=10xSuper Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Rose=3,900xbase

Future Trunks arc Base Goku: 32,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 1,625,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 3,250,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 13,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 6,500,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 65,500,000,000,000,000,000


Base Goku Black: 16,000,000,000,000,000
Base Goku Black(Post training): 18,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku Black: 900,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 70,200,000,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks arc Base Vegeta: 32,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1,625,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta(Quake of fury): 975,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 65,500,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Rose's multiplier isn't anywhere near SSB. SSR Black wasn't that much stronger than Goku and Vegeta despite his base form being hundreds of times stronger.

Did you just pull these numbers out of your rear?

The point was that all of the people complaining about powerscaling don't make any sense since Vegeta's SSJ2 gives a higher multiplier than the standard SSJ2 as shown versus Beerus.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Can someone explain to me the "two base theory" and how it relates to the Super Saiyan forms? I always thought Goku could just channel varying amounts of God ki into base/SS1/SS2/SS3 with SSGSS occurring when Super Saiyan Goku channels God ki at its fullest.

[HeroR]

Can someone explain to me the "two base theory" and how it relates to the Super Saiyan forms? I always thought Goku could just channel varying amounts of God ki into base/SS1/SS2/SS3 with SSGSS occurring when Super Saiyan Goku channels God ki at its fullest.

Only Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan have confirmed god ki. God ki isn't giving in percentages, otherwise no one would have been shocked when Goku turned into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and had god ki.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

So Base/SSJ Goku retained his Super Saiyan God strength against Beerus by simply "learning" it then? Without absorbing the god ki?

[HeroR]

So Base/SSJ Goku retained his Super Saiyan God strength against Beerus by simply "learning" it then? Without absorbing the god ki?

Yes. It was specifically stated that Goku completely lost his god form. Everyone could sense him, Whis was going to write off Goku's fight at that very moment, and Beerus told Goku that his time was up. Beerus was shocked that Goku was able to keep fighting and didn't get weaker despite not having his god form anymore. That is why every was shocked when Goku went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and they wondered if he was a Super Saiyan God again, until Tien pointed out that he was the wrong color.

[ZombieVito]

So Base/SSJ Goku retained his Super Saiyan God strength against Beerus by simply "learning" it then? Without absorbing the god ki?

Yes but after fighting Beerus he needs SSB to reach god level again.

[Bullza]

But Goku never lost his new found power after fighting Beerus. He should have been God level the whole time, they said he was stronger as a Super Saiyan than he was as a Super Saiyan God.

[Hugo Boss]

The problem arises when you consider the Hit fight. We know SSBlue Vegeta at 10% is inferior to Hit as otherwise the timeskip wouldn't work on him. We also know that SSJ Goku was able to put up a splendid fight against Hit. Even if you massively lowball Goku and put him at only 2% - which would make no sense as Hit definitely wouldn't experience so much difficulty in that case - his SSJ3 would end up at 16% and SSJ2 Vegeta would be considerably above that, possibly over 20%, more than twice what he used as SSBlue.

So the question is, why didn't Vegeta just use SSJ2 against Hit? Given that it is far superior to Goku's SSJ3, it may have even allowed him to break the timeskip.

It's all fine with Hit too. His fighting style is severely restrained by not using his true skills, so it doesn't matter if Goku can keep up with him in a weaker form. Actually, SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta are still much weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, even at 10%, which explains why Vegeta used SSB a second time and why Hit thought tokitobashi would work also on SSG Goku.

There's no reason he shouldn't be able to knock Goku out with a single blow even without the timeskip if he was that much stronger. Except in rare cases like Grade 3, being massively more powerful also gives you far greater speed.

And no character has ever experienced issues with non-lethally taking down someone much weaker than them. For example, the androids annihilated the SSJs who were at least around 70-80% of them, Goku easily one-shotted Recoome who was around half his strength & Vegeta knocked Goku out with a sneak attack despite being slightly weaker.

He doesn't even have to use any skill, just one punch would do the job as it has always done in cases of huge gaps in power.

He punches Goku while Goku is not using any transformation and it doesn't knock out him instantly. How do you explain this? For me, it's pretty simple. Hit isn't a martial artist, so figuring out how he moves is quite easy for Goku in order to counter his Tokitobashi. Add the extra difficulty that Hit has by not being allowed to kill and the whole fight makes much more sense. The odds are in Goku's favor, because despite being very poweful Hit is not even trying. Actually, it's implied that he could beat Goku in a no-restriction match.

About the examples you mentioned. We don't know how much effort the cyborgs put to defeat the Super Saiyans, but we know they have infinite stamina, so it's not like the Saiyans had a chance to begin with. Goku attacked a spot in Recoome's body that was probably his Achilles' heel and SS2 Goku dropped his defense completely when Vegeta knocked him out, much like Recoome, so no big deal.

[TheUltimateNinja]

What multiplier do you have for Frieza's golden form? I personally go with 2.5x.

[ZombieVito]

But Goku never lost his new found power after fighting Beerus. He should have been God level the whole time, they said he was stronger as a Super Saiyan than he was as a Super Saiyan God.

Then explain why Kaio was surprised Goku reached god level on his own.

[TheMikado]

To be honest I'm really not sure why Hit vs base Goku is any different than Buu vs Base Vegeta.

[ChiefWamsutta]

To be honest I'm really not sure why Hit vs base Goku is any different than Buu vs Base Vegeta.

That's not a bad comparison at all. I like the idea that Goku was just testing Hit out and trying to even see if he could make contact with Hit. ... Then he goes all out with SSB and then SSB KKx10.

But Goku never lost his new found power after fighting Beerus. He should have been God level the whole time, they said he was stronger as a Super Saiyan than he was as a Super Saiyan God.

Can you give an Episode/Minute/Second of when they said Goku was stronger as a Super Saiyan then when he was a Super Saiyan God?

[Bullza]

Then explain why Kaio was surprised Goku reached god level on his own

I'm sure he was probably just surprised by the fact he'd become a God just on his won. Nothing to do with strenght just that he had learned to become on without having to do the ritual.

Can you give an Episode/Minute/Second of when they said Goku was stronger as a Super Saiyan then when he was a Super Saiyan God?

I'll have to check to find it exactly later but it was either said once or twice and I'm pretty sure it was the narrator who said it. I'll have a look later.

[ZombieVito]

Then explain why Kaio was surprised Goku reached god level on his own

I'm sure he was probably just surprised by the fact he'd become a God just on his won. Nothing to do with strenght just that he had learned to become on without having to do the ritual.

Seriously doubt it. That would make the gap between god and blue way too big and nobody implied that is the case.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

[quote="ZombieVito"]Did I miss something? The Time Skip was said to only work on people weaker or as strong as Hit. So they are on the same tier by default.
[quote]
It works on those stronger than Hit (like SS Goku & 10% SSB Vegeta), but if the fighter is too strong (like SSG Goku), it doesn't work well.

[TheMikado]

I think the above is where people are misinterpreting things. They read it as the time skip ALWAYS works on a weaker opponent which is not what is said. A skilled weaker opponent CAN over come it such as base Goku. All we know is that 10% Vegeta wasn't able to over come it by power alone. Base Goku can be several times weaker than SSB 10% Vegeta and still overcome it with skill.

[Simere]

I think the above is where people are misinterpreting things. They read it as the time skip ALWAYS works on a weaker opponent which is not what is said. A skilled weaker opponent CAN over come it such as base Goku. All we know is that 10% Vegeta wasn't able to over come it by power alone. Base Goku can be several times weaker than SSB 10% Vegeta and still overcome it with skill.

Goku was already countering the Time Skip before he went SSG; what Beerus is asking and what Whis is answering is why the Time Skip has effectively stopped working. Whis says it's because the Time Skip only works if they're near or below him in terms of power, and SSG Goku's is far above his now. There's no legitimate alternative reading of this, it's clear as day.

That's why he powers up.

[MajinVegetaPD]

A skilled weaker opponent CAN over come it such as base Goku.

That's not what was said at all. I'm not sure what you were reading.