OLKv3 wrote:The 1/10th power crap is the absolute worst part of the manga and just creates too many problems. I wouldn't mind if he handwaved it away by saying they trained to overcome it
I honestly can't blame Toyotaro too much for that one, though. I admire what he was trying to do, even if his way of reaching the 10x Goku plot-point created issues.
I honestly have no idea what was going through Toriyama's mind when he wrote that.
Obviously he wrote something similar to "Goku defeats Hit because he manages to get 10x stronger than Vegeta", due to how the "10x" is present in both the anime and the manga, but it had to be something incredibly vague due to the difference between the two mediums. Toei did what they did best, and powered-up Goku by inflating power levels even more, Toyotaro nerfed Vegeta.
I have no idea what Toriyama's ideal vision of the scene was, but he obviously didn't think it through regardless.
Toriyama's ideal vision of that fight doesn't exist as he couldn't bother writing it. His idea of that battle is that Goku overcomes Hit's time-skip, gets his respect and Hit throws his battle against Monaka (gag)
I don't get why the hell he wanted Goku to be exactly 10 times stronger than Vegeta in that occasion. If he just left that part out, both the anime and the manga would have benefitted from it. At the very least, he could have made Goku 2x stronger than Vegeta instead of 10x.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return
Additional lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball Daima
I sure hope Toyotarõ throws away the Blue weakness or at the very least makes it less severe.
I agree with what's it being said in the thread, he could have written a better way to weaken Vegeta. At least he didn't bloat the power levels.
LightBing wrote:I sure hope Toyotarõ throws away the Blue weakness or at the very least makes it less severe.
I agree with what's it being said in the thread, he could have written a better way to weaken Vegeta. At least he didn't bloat the power levels.
Toyotaro can easily explain that rule away with training if he ever needs to. Hopefully he realizes that.
OLKv3 wrote:Devil'sCorpse is translating now, so this line
Anyway, Black learned about the near death boosts and, teaming up with his alternate self, used those to climb back up the power ladder.
Means that Black actually was having Zamasu give him constant zenkais. And it's the reason he chose to work with another Zamasu
Not necessarily. You're reading it as if it's a sequential explanation, but "teaming up with his alternate self" actually reads as an addendum.
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but I think he probably got his Zenkai boosts while fighting warriors on other planets. After all, if Zamasu were giving him the Zenkai, why wouldn't they have kept going until he achieved God-tier power, or even further?
OLKv3 wrote:Devil'sCorpse is translating now, so this line
Anyway, Black learned about the near death boosts and, teaming up with his alternate self, used those to climb back up the power ladder.
Means that Black actually was having Zamasu give him constant zenkais. And it's the reason he chose to work with another Zamasu
Not necessarily. You're reading it as if it's a sequential explanation, but "teaming up with his alternate self" actually reads as an addendum.
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but I think he probably got his Zenkai boosts while fighting warriors on other planets. After all, if Zamasu were giving him the Zenkai, why wouldn't they have kept going until he could achieve God-tier power, or even further?
OLKv3 wrote:Devil'sCorpse is translating now, so this line
Anyway, Black learned about the near death boosts and, teaming up with his alternate self, used those to climb back up the power ladder.
Means that Black actually was having Zamasu give him constant zenkais. And it's the reason he chose to work with another Zamasu
Not necessarily. You're reading it as if it's a sequential explanation, but "teaming up with his alternate self" actually reads as an addendum.
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but I think he probably got his Zenkai boosts while fighting warriors on other planets. After all, if Zamasu were giving him the Zenkai, why wouldn't they have kept going until he achieved God-tier power, or even further?
Maybe Zuno told Black about Zenkais
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return
Additional lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball Daima
OLKv3 wrote:Devil'sCorpse is translating now, so this line
Means that Black actually was having Zamasu give him constant zenkais. And it's the reason he chose to work with another Zamasu
Not necessarily. You're reading it as if it's a sequential explanation, but "teaming up with his alternate self" actually reads as an addendum.
Not that it's necessarily wrong, but I think he probably got his Zenkai boosts while fighting warriors on other planets. After all, if Zamasu were giving him the Zenkai, why wouldn't they have kept going until he achieved God-tier power, or even further?
Maybe Zuno told Black about Zenkais
I'm sure he did, be Black probably would have discovered them, regardless.
So Black's Zenkai are what I assumed they were: him getting accustomed to Goku's existing power and getting more access to it.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Just when I thought bringing back Freeza and making him training for four months was far-fetched as fuck, Toriyama or Toyotaro comes up with this to make Goku Black stronger.
Really, wouldn't simpler just to make Goku evil? Not yet another body switch?
Grimlock wrote:Just when I thought bringing back Freeza and making him training for four months was far-fetched as fuck, Toriyama or Toyotaro comes up with this to make Goku Black stronger.
Really, wouldn't simpler just to make Goku evil? Not yet another body switch?
Perfect Cell was already as evil as you can make standard Goku without giving him an entirely different personality.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
This falls in line with Ginyu taking over Goku's body. I want to spin it as Goku's body resisting, his cells needing to be weakened before being completely taken over. Goku, struggling until the very end.
So does this mean that Goku Black was getting his ass kicked a lot when he went on his mortal murdering spree?I really don't how to feel about that. So does this officially confirm that Goku Black jobbed out on purpose to SSJ2 Vegeta? I mean, if Goku Black knew how Zenkai's work, why didn't he just have Future Zamasu blast some holes in him and then heal again, to efficiently farm those cheap power-ups? But then again, considering that Goku Black apparently needed SSJ to fight Future Trunks in previous skirmishes, and Future Trunks at his strongest is SSJ3 Goku tier, he didn't really make a lot of gains before he made it to Earth and battled Future Trunks. Hmm. Maybe that's why didn't intervene when Future Trunks battled Babidi, Dabra and the Majin minions and why he was so glad all the Hakaishin were dead in that timeline. Perhaps he knew he was a weakling and wanted to dodge that bullet.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote: Hmm. Maybe that's why didn't intervene when Future Trunks battled Babidi, Dabra and the Majin minions and why he was so glad all the Hakaishin were dead in that timeline. Perhaps he knew he was a weakling and wanted to dodge that bullet.
This is said early in the chapter. He knew he was a weakling. He expected to be able to use all of Goku's abilities immediately, but instead found out he couldn't even transform into SSJ. He had to learn how to use Goku's body, so he fled to another timeline where Beerus wasn't friends with Goku.
ekrolo2 wrote:Perfect Cell was already as evil as you can make standard Goku without giving him an entirely different personality.
But Cell is green with black spots and has insect wings. I would take Mira over him, if that's the case. The matter also takes visual appearance as well, it is an important issue for marketing and impact on viewers. Anyways.
I'd like to see an evil Goku, a legit evil Goku... That would make this narrative so much simpler.
