"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

Hmm. Maybe that's why didn't intervene when Future Trunks battled Babidi, Dabra and the Majin minions and why he was so glad all the Hakaishin were dead in that timeline. Perhaps he knew he was a weakling and wanted to dodge that bullet.

This is said early in the chapter. He knew he was a weakling. He expected to be able to use all of Goku's abilities immediately, but instead found out he couldn't even transform into SSJ. He had to learn how to use Goku's body, so he fled to another timeline where Beerus wasn't friends with Goku.

Wait, which chapter did he say that in again?

[LightBing]

Wait, which chapter did he say that in again?

In this chapter.
Check TheDevilsCorpse twitter, he's been translating it.
https://twitter.com/dragonballredux

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I'm going to note that the escaping because Beerus was friends with Goku part isn't actually mentioned in the chapter. I'm just connecting implied dots from when Black said he was far weaker than expected (in this chapter) and saying he was glad he found a timeline where the "most troublesome Hakaishin doesn't exist" a few chapters back.

[ekrolo2]

Perfect Cell was already as evil as you can make standard Goku without giving him an entirely different personality.

But Cell is green with black spots and has insect wings. I would take Mira over him, if that's the case. The matter also takes visual appearance as well, it is an important issue for marketing and impact on viewers. Anyways.

I'd like to see an evil Goku, a legit evil Goku... That would make this narrative so much simpler.

It wouldn't work with this narrative which I find interesting, a God stealing the ultimate mortals body for his fighting prowess is a good concept that works for Dragon Ball, Super just does what Super and to a lesser extent GT must do: botch the fuck out of it to varying degree.s

Cell is already evil standard Goku: he's got Goku's desire for battle and to test himself but he's willing to murder and torture people to get a good fight out of someone. That's about as evil as you can make the standard Goku without changing his entire personality the way Turles does by being the "Goku who never bonked his head as a baby".

[Cetra]

Hah, just read from his twitter the Bootstrap, Alternate Line combo is also there in the manga. Great.

I have not read the manga yet but this has definitely convinced me to do so. Apparently it lacks a bit more explanation but I have the anime so I don't care.

[Pannaliciour]

Assuming it was Akira's line, storywise this chapter makes more sense than the anime. The line "that Black can't fully acces the cells of goku because he stole his body" fits much better in the manga: Vegeta becoming blue and Black can not (yet).


In the anime Vegeta get beat up twice then vegeta beats him after training. So that line doesn't make any sense if you get jobbed 2 times before in the anime.

Btw that sword move against zamasu by trunks was sick badass

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Hah, just read from his twitter the Bootstrap, Alternate Line combo is also there in the manga. Great.

I have not read the manga yet but this has definitely convinced me to do so. Apparently it lacks a bit more explanation but I have the anime so I don't care.

It can be read that way, but I don't really think that's the intention. Black doesn't have any knowledge about the events that transpired in the "past" after Trunks went back or anything like that, meaning he should originate from the main timeline without Trunks' interference. However, the characters still call him the Zamasu of "our world" or "Goku-san's world" because they probably still see him as such.

So I want to say that Trunks was the impetus for the change, but Beerus was the trigger point that causes whatever mystical force watches over time in the Super continuities to forge a new ring. Because Zamasu's death was the first BIG change and that's what forced apart the divergence, even if Trunks is what sparked it.

A similar line of thinking would be when Trunks first went to the past, his arrival in the timeline may not have had enough of an effect to force the split immediately anf create a ring, but perhaps his stepping in against Freeza finally changed enough to splinter the timeline. As it could have had a spiderweb of effects. Such as, maybe preventing Goku from using SS in a big battle with Freeza and Cold kept his heart from weakening and delayed the virus.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

A similar line of thinking would be when Trunks first went to the past, his arrival in the timeline may not have had enough of an effect to force the split immediately anf create a ring, but perhaps his stepping in against Freeza finally changed enough to splinter the timeline. As it could have had a spiderweb of effects. Such as, maybe preventing Goku from using SS in a big battle with Freeza and Cold kept his heart from weakening and delayed the virus.

See: Xenoverse Parallel Quests.

Xenoverse isn't entirely consistent with this arc's version of time travel, but I won't reject the idea that small enough changes won't create entirely new timelines, but small splinters that reconcile at some point. In fact, a few hundred years ago, that falled perfectly in line with the intellectuals' ideas of causality. Granted, that idea falls apart once you leave the immediate vicinity of the characters' perception, but this is a very present-minded series, so I'll let it slide..

[Doctor.]

So, now with more translations available and taking a better look at the chapter, some big problems arrive.

- Goku powering down as already stated, but also why he didn't transform to break himself free of Zamasu's technique. He has four extra transformations.
- The time travel still being a mess in the manga. There were 5 time rings when Trunks came back and there are 6 when Zamasu checks this chapter, meaning Beerus destroying Zamasu was what caused the split just like in the anime. This still doesn't make sense
- Goku Black and Zamasu not abusing the zenkai like Vegeta and Kuririn on Namek.

[OLKv3]

So, now with more translations available and taking a better look at the chapter, some big problems arrive.

- Goku powering down as already stated, but also why he didn't transform to break himself free of Zamasu's technique. He has four extra transformations.
- The time travel still being a mess in the manga. There were 5 time rings when Trunks came back and there are 6 when Zamasu checks this chapter, meaning Beerus destroying Zamasu was what caused the split just like in the anime. This still doesn't make sense
- Goku Black and Zamasu not abusing the zenkai like Vegeta and Kuririn on Namek.

Who says you can transform once you're frozen? Gohan couldn't even move when Supreme Kai trapped him. Neither could Dabura, and both were much stronger than him. Only Buu effortlessly broke free. SSJ Goku probably couldn't move either

I kept telling you guys that the Beerus split was all Toriyama, because it ties into the ending of the arc.
We don't know if Black and Zamasu abused zenkais on their own or from other fights, the wording of the translations make it as if it could go either way

[Doctor.]

Who says you can transform once you're frozen? Gohan couldn't even move when Supreme Kai trapped him. Neither could Dabura, and both were much stronger than him. Only Buu effortlessly broke free. SSJ Goku probably couldn't move either

That's a fine assumption but it was never stated that this was the case. We see Goku in his base form later whilst still under Zamasu's effect, so it's not like he's stopping Goku's Ki or something. He should still be able to use his Ki even if his body is immobilized, remember how Goku was able to form a Genkidama even with all his bones broken?

I kept telling you guys that the Beerus split was all Toriyama, because it ties into the ending of the arc.

That's fine, it still doesn't make any sense. Toriyama isn't exempt from criticism. If he was, then I wouldn't think Resurrection 'F' is the worst thing this franchise has ever seen.

We don't know if Black and Zamasu abused zenkais on their own or from other fights, the wording of the translations make it as if it could go either way

Regardless of which, they could have easily gone to the Kaioshin realm and abuse the power. Black lowers his power, Zamasu stabs him or blows a hole through his torso, then heals him and Black gets stronger. If you keep doing this at the level, and with the rate of improvement Black seems to have, they would have reached Super Saiyan Rosé much earlier.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

- The time travel still being a mess in the manga. There were 5 time rings when Trunks came back and there are 6 when Zamasu checks this chapter, meaning Beerus destroying Zamasu was what caused the split just like in the anime. This still doesn't make sense

It's probably a Toriyama plot point, Toyotaro would have caught that.

Interestingly enough, it's very similar to how Xenoverse time travel works. It would be entirely consistent, but if you erase someone's history with Xenoverse rules, they simply disappear. The timeline doesn't split.

Anyway, this particular time travel problem doesn't bother me as much anymore, it has the same problems that the anime had. Events should have always played out in such a way where Present Zamasu was killed before becoming Black, which would prevent the Zero Humans Plan, which would prevent Trunks from having to come back, which would prevent Beerus from killing Zamasu, which creates a shit ton of syntax errors. The loop of illogic can't be avoided because Toriyama's premise for this story was flawed. It's not even something worth criticising for either version at this point, nothing could save this.

[Doctor.]

Anyway, this particular time travel problem doesn't bother me as much anymore, it has the same problems that the anime had. Events should have always played out in such a way where Present Zamasu was killed before becoming Black, which would prevent the Zero Humans Plan, which would prevent Trunks from having to come back, which would prevent Beerus from killing Zamasu, which creates a shit ton of syntax errors. The loop of illogic can't be avoided because Toriyama's premise for this story was flawed. It's not even something worth criticising for either version at this point, nothing could save this.

There was not going to be any paradox in the manga if Beerus wasn't the one who created the split. Zamasu becomes Black because of his sparring match with Kibito and he never meets Beerus.

But seeing as how Black knows about Beerus, it's obvious the timeline split when Beerus tried to erase him. And Beerus only came to erase him because of Trunks. Which means there's a paradox again.

C'mon Toriyama.

[OLKv3]

The timeline thing does make sense. Normal History has Zamasu steal Goku's body uninterrupted. Current timeline changes this with Beerus killing Zamasu. Time changes when Beerus changes history by killing Zamasu. It's that simple. Since Zamasu's timeline is technically first, his world still happens with Beerus never figuring out his plan. But Beerus figuring out his plan and acting on it changes history and creates another parallel world.

You people are assuming that Beerus meets Zamasu in the original timeline, and that's incorrect. Black's existence isn't reliant on Black himself in the manga. It'll happen on it's own

[Doctor.]

You people are assuming that Beerus meets Zamasu in the original timeline, and that's incorrect.

It has to happen considering that:

a) Trunks doesn't split the timeline, this is confirmed by the fact that there are 5 time rings after Trunks already came back and in this chapter there are 6.
b) Beerus is the one who splits the timeline, meaning that Zamasu's death is the action that splits it. Meaning that in the original timeline, Zamasu survived their encounter. Which makes no sense.
c) Black mentions Beerus, Zamasu didn't know who he was prior to meeting him. This is just further confirmation of b).

There's a paradox and there's a plot hole.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Interestingly enough, it's very similar to how Xenoverse time travel works. It would be entirely consistent, but if you erase someone's history with Xenoverse rules, they simply disappear. The timeline doesn't split.

Your Xenoverse examples don't entirely stick, as Parallel Worlds and Runaway Time Fragments are created when time machines like Trunks' are used. They cause the splits in that continuity because they are imperfect designs.
However, the "special" time machines developed by the Time Kaioshin, the Book of Endings and Beginnings, and Demigra/Towa's magic don't suffer from this. Hence why they can (try to) do things like erase Trunks from existence without causing a split.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The timeline thing does make sense. Normal History has Zamasu steal Goku's body uninterrupted. Current timeline changes this with Beerus killing Zamasu. Time changes when Beerus changes history by killing Zamasu. It's that simple. Since Zamasu's timeline is technically first, his world still happens with Beerus never figuring out his plan. But Beerus figuring out his plan and acting on it changes history and creates another parallel world.

You people are assuming that Beerus meets Zamasu in the original timeline, and that's incorrect. Black's existence isn't reliant on Black himself in the manga. It'll happen on it's own

We aren't forgetting anything. There is no version of events where Trunks doesn't come back, we can infer this because Trunks strongly implies that travelling back by the exact amount of time as he did in the Android Arc won't split the timeline (I think this was Chapter 14, but it could be 15). This means that all following events have to unfold the same way, meaning that Beerus always ends up killing Zamasu, stopping him from even beginning his plan. Syntax errors ensue.

Your error is in assuming that the dominoes can fall in a way where Beerus doesn't meet Zamasu, even though such a thing is impossible in any version of our present timeline.

Do you have questions about anything I just said?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It has to happen considering that:

a) Trunks doesn't split the timeline, this is confirmed by the fact that there are 5 time rings after Trunks already came back and in this chapter there are 6.
b) Beerus is the one who splits the timeline, meaning that Zamasu's death is the action that splits it. Meaning that in the original timeline, Zamasu survived their encounter. Which makes no sense.
c) Black mentions Beerus, Zamasu didn't know who he was prior to meeting him. This is just further confirmation of b).

There's a paradox and there's a plot hole.

I've mentioned earlier that C could easily be because Beerus came after him once he learned Goku's body was stolen in that original timeline. I don't remember anything Black has mentioned about Beerus specially relating to anything that happened while the Hakaishin was investigating the information Trunks' provided. Black is unsure of what world and era Goku and Vegeta are from, and he's also clearly confused this chapter when Goku and Vegeta tell him Beerus killed his past self.

[Doctor.]

It has to happen considering that:

a) Trunks doesn't split the timeline, this is confirmed by the fact that there are 5 time rings after Trunks already came back and in this chapter there are 6.
b) Beerus is the one who splits the timeline, meaning that Zamasu's death is the action that splits it. Meaning that in the original timeline, Zamasu survived their encounter. Which makes no sense.
c) Black mentions Beerus, Zamasu didn't know who he was prior to meeting him. This is just further confirmation of b).

There's a paradox and there's a plot hole.

I've mentioned earlier that C could easily be because Beerus came after him once he learned Goku's body was stolen in that original timeline. I don't remember anything Black has mentioned about Beerus specially relating to anything that happened while the Hakaishin was investigating the information Trunks' provided. Black is unsure of what world and era Goku and Vegeta are from, and he's also clearly confused this chapter when Goku and Vegeta tell him Beerus killed his past self.

Well, of course he's confused, he wasn't supposed to die. Him being alive confirms it. But it still doesn't make sense. It wasn't Trunks killing Mecha Freeza or Cell killing Trunks that split the timelines. It was the act of time travel that did. Beerus isn't performing any act of time travel, he's just doing something within his own timeline, he's following destiny, so to speak. The split should have happened prior to all of this.

[TheMikado]

I'm not understanding what specifically is making people believe Beerus was supposed to kill Zamasu in the original timeline?

From my understanding things transpired as they normally would with Zamasu specifically avoiding Beerus because he's sneaking around doing things in Beeruss universe. Doesn't get caught and fullfills his plan. Meets Trunks who happens to have a time machine and goes back in time and has Beerus destroy Zamasu. This doesn't matter because Black is already around and without Trunks or a Beerus interference would have naturally been created on his own. Beerus destroying him actually unnaturally split the timeline from its original state of Black being created organically.