"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

No I've explain it already, ill map it out for your.

Timeline 5: Zamasu becomes Goku Black, No Trunks because Black doesn't exist yet... this is where Trunks meets Black and goes into timeline 6 past.

Tineline 6: Black exists making Trunks from timeline 5 go into the past of timeline 6, he can't go back in his own timeline only a different one. This is where Beerus kills Zamasu and causes the split.

You didn't explain anything.

How is this wrong?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

No I've explain it already, ill map it out for your.

Timeline 5: Zamasu becomes Goku Black, No Trunks because Black doesn't exist yet... this is where Trunks meets Black and goes into timeline 6 past.

Tineline 6: Black exists making Trunks from timeline 5 go into the past of timeline 6, he can't go back in his own timeline only a different one. This is where Beerus kills Zamasu and causes the split.

You didn't explain anything.

How is this wrong?

A split cannot happen afterwards as a direct result of travelling back, that's a contradiction with not only the Android Arc, but literally every other instance of time travel in the series so far. Also, like I've explained countless times, since there's only one time ring after Trunks travels back, there can only be one effect for each cause, meaning that Beerus actions are always the same, meaning that Zamasu never should have become Goku Black.

You'll probably try to refute this by saying "how could Trunks come back if there's no Goku Black?" which is exactly the point. He couldn't, and this whole arc is a plot hole

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Yes, the content as a whole, exactly as presented is flawed with a paradox. I don't deny that. However, pretty much everything up to and surrounding the point in Chapter 20 where they say "Beerus split the timeline and creates a Time Ring" is written as though there were supposed to be two different versions: one with Trunks and one without him. This is why I (jokingly) suggested earlier that time travel itself may not actually cause the timeline splits, but the actions resulting from them. It feels more like Toyotaro was trying to make as much sense out of what he knows should happen, until he had to eventually funnel it all into the above plot point as Toriyama wrote it.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Yes, the content as a whole, exactly as presented is flawed with a paradox. I don't deny that. However, pretty much everything up to and surrounding the point in Chapter 20 where they say "Beerus split the timeline and creates a Time Ring" is written as though there were supposed to be two different versions: one with Trunks and one without him. This is why I (jokingly) suggested earlier that time travel itself may not actually cause the timeline splits, but the actions resulting from them. It feels more like Toyotaro was trying to make as much sense out of what he knows should happen, until he had to eventually funnel it all into the above plot point as Toriyama wrote it.

I agree 100%. However, TheMikado doesn't seem to understand the paradox at all which is what I'm wasting my time trying to explain.

[Noah]

This chapter might be the last we see of Future Trunks. Toyotarõ said his ending would be different than the anime. I would rather Trunks just died than a cop-out as living in another timeline, just to have a twisted happy ending.

"Trunks' dead, end of arc"
seems pretty lame.

Exactly, the arc is named with his name it doesn't make sense that he would get killed at all. That's why even though the manga is trying to be consistent, there's no way to escape the "SSJ Rage plot point" if they still pretend to Trunks play a big part in this arc.

[TheMikado]

You didn't explain anything.

How is this wrong?

A split cannot happen at a point after you travel back in time, that's a contradiction with not only the Android Arc, but literally every other instance of time travel in the series so far. Also, like I've explained countless times, since there's only one time ring after Trunks travels back, there can only be one effect for each cause, meaning that Beerus actions are always the same, meaning that Zamasu never should have become Goku Black.

You'll probably try to refute this by saying "how could Trunks come back if there's no Goku Black?" which is exactly the point. He couldn't, and this whole arc is a plot hole

You're making up a rule that we don't know exists. We know that traveling to the past can split the timeline but we don't know exactly when that occurs. No where do we ever get the indication that just traveling back in time splits it. Beerus destruction would have been the only major change, so why do you need multiple time rings if only on change occurred?

Your evidence appears based on a single time ring being created which fits exactly what I mapped out. It's he same as there being a timeline in the Cell saga which Trunks didn't come back and it's the original one which set the entire plot into motion. It's literally the same exact type of set up that has been established to already occur in the DB universe. I'll try to map it out to coincide with Z.

Origins timelines: Goku dies heart virus, no Trunks in the past. Black is created, no Trunks.

Altered timelines: Goku saved, trunks in past. Zamasu dies, Trunks in past.

It's literally the same format where the original timeline occurs naturally without Trunks presence at all. Remember in the manga Blacks origins occur completely without Beerus or Trunks involvement.

[TheMikado]

Yes, the content as a whole, exactly as presented is flawed with a paradox. I don't deny that. However, pretty much everything up to and surrounding the point in Chapter 20 where they say "Beerus split the timeline and creates a Time Ring" is written as though there were supposed to be two different versions: one with Trunks and one without him. This is why I (jokingly) suggested earlier that time travel itself may not actually cause the timeline splits, but the actions resulting from them. It feels more like Toyotaro was trying to make as much sense out of what he knows should happen, until he had to eventually funnel it all into the above plot point as Toriyama wrote it.

I'm not understanding the paradox at all. I would really appreciate if it could be explained. The manga version has Blacks origins occur seperate of Trunks and Beerus so I don't see the paradox.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The manga version has Blacks origins occur seperate of Trunks and Beerus so I don't see the paradox.

You're looking in the wrong place. You have your mind on the time loop, which is only one of two problems that the anime had. The manga retains the second problem.

You're making up a rule that we don't know exists. We know that traveling to the past can split the timeline but we don't know exactly when that occurs.

I won't acknowledge the rest of your post, this contention literally makes no sense for reasons I'm about to explain.

No where do we ever get the indication that just traveling back in time splits it.

That's literally the indication we've gotten over and over again from the first time Trunks explains time travel. I'd forgive you for making this mistake if chapter 20, the chapter that just leaked, hadn't established the same thing.

Even if we hadn't, that's the default, common sense assumption. That's how domino effects work. Even if they traveled back, took a shit, then left, something will be different, even if slightly. Since the time machine couldn't have shown up and not shown up simultaneously, the split has to happen when they first travel back. This is not difficult to reason out, and Goku Black's history cannot happen if we follow these common sense rules.

[TheMikado]

You're making up a rule that we don't know exists. We know that traveling to the past can split the timeline but we don't know exactly when that occurs.

I won't acknowledge the rest of your post, this contention literally makes no sense for reasons I'm about to explain.

No where do we ever get the indication that just traveling back in time splits it.

That's literally the indication we've gotten over and over again from the first time Trunks explains time travel. I'd forgive you for making this mistake if chapter 20, the chapter that just leaked, hadn't established the same thing.

Even if we hadn't, that's the default, common sense assumption. That's how domino effects work. Even if they traveled back, took a shit, then left, something will be different, even if slightly. Since the time machine couldn't have shown up and not shown up simultaneously, the split has to happen when they first travel back. This is not difficult to reason out, and Goku Black's history cannot happen if we follow these common sense rules.

Except we know for a fact that every trip back and forth DOES NOT cause more time rings to occur, this was explained when Trunks multiple trips and timeline only caused 1 ring to appear. The exact statement was that the last one appeared "recently" and it was only one after all the back and forth shenanigans Trunks had in the Cell arc.

So either the lore is completely wrong or only major deviations actually cause the timelines to split and create a ring.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

No where do we ever get the indication that just traveling back in time splits it.

That's literally the indication we've gotten over and over again from the first time Trunks explains time travel. I'd forgive you for making this mistake if chapter 20, the chapter that just leaked, hadn't established the same thing.

Even if we hadn't, that's the default, common sense assumption. That's how domino effects work. Even if they traveled back, took a shit, then left, something will be different, even if slightly. Since the time machine couldn't have shown up and not shown up simultaneously, the split has to happen when they first travel back. This is not difficult to reason out, and Goku Black's history cannot happen if we follow these common sense rules.

It's actually not. I just asked Herms about it on Twitter, and the only things stated in Toriyama's manga for the Artificial Human material are in regards to actions changing history ("i'm changing history by giving you this medicine", etc), not the time traveling itself. Similar to Toyotaro's explanation about Boy A in Chapter 14, where he want back to have his young mother try a red bean bun, but a new timeline was born because she choked and died. All the stuff about time machines creating splits is from guides and video games. I don't care either way, just putting it out there.

[Ki Breaker]

Finally got to read the manga..
The manga is god's gift, the action scenes holy shit, black not using his ki blade all the time ia a big plus..

Truly it's a shame they don't let Toyotaro draw the manga and adapt it..
The dialogues and fighting hits the spot so much more better

[TheMikado]

^^^ THANK YOU!!!

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Except we know for a fact that every trip back and forth DOES NOT cause more time rings to occur, this was explained when Trunks multiple trips and timeline only caused 1 ring to appear.

Ugh... we've been over this already. The time machine establishes a link with the new timeline it creates, which was pretty much confirmed in DBS chapter 14 (I think, it's pretty much an established fact, anyhow.). The manga literally explains the phenomena in question.

It's actually not. I just asked Herms about it on Twitter, and the only things stated in Toriyama's manga for the Artificial Human material are in regards to actions changing history ("i'm changing history by giving you this medicine", etc), not the time traveling itself.

It is, regardless of what Toriyama's manga says. Going by basic principles, which explained a few minutes ago, it has to be the default.

Edit: Actually, I explained why it had to be in the post you quoted. Things cannot be, yet not be at any given moment.

[TheMikado]

Except we know for a fact that every trip back and forth DOES NOT cause more time rings to occur, this was explained when Trunks multiple trips and timeline only caused 1 ring to appear.

Ugh... we've been over this already. The time machine establishes a link with the new timeline it creates, which was pretty much confirmed in DBS chapter 14. The manga literally explains the phenomena in question.

See post above, time machines aren't stated to create new timelines. Actions are the only things stated to do so.
Regardless the only major action taken that would create a new timeline was Zamasus death. In the original 5th timeline he becomes Black in the 6th he always dies. That's all.

Look if your not going to take Toriyamas own word for how it works in a story he created then I guess there isn't much more to discuss.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It is, regardless of what Toriyama's manga says. Going by basic principles, which explained a few minutes ago, it has to be the default.

I'm going to disagree. I don't care if it's the time machine or the time traveler's actions (I honestly like the former better), but "basic principle" be damned. Toriyama is the author, and the work is not set in reality. He creates the world and establishes the rules. If he said that you can time travel, but it won't split the timeline unless you're wearing a clown costume on a unicycle during the trip, then that's how it functions. Is it logically sound? Hell no, but that's how stuff like this functions unless something retcons it later.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Time machines aren't stated to create new timelines. Actions are the only things stated to do so.
Regardless the only major action taken that would create a new timeline was Zamasus death. In the original 5th timeline he becomes Black in the 6th he always dies. That's all.

Look if your not going to take Toriyamas own word for how it works in a story he created then I guess there isn't much more to discuss.

If you don't want to discuss, fine, but you still missed the point of the entire conversation. I know what is, I'm talking about what should logically be. 5 and 6 both contain events that should lead to Zamasu's death, but 6 doesn't cause reasons.

If I took Toriyama's word for everything, I'd be obligated to stand by the fact that Dragon Balls recharge after 8 months, Pilaf's dog assistant is named both Shu and Soba, and Super Saiyan God was a part of the original Super Saiyan myth (See: DBM). Obviously, I choose common sense over Toriyama's notoriously unreliable word.

[TheMikado]

Time machines aren't stated to create new timelines. Actions are the only things stated to do so.
Regardless the only major action taken that would create a new timeline was Zamasus death. In the original 5th timeline he becomes Black in the 6th he always dies. That's all.

Look if your not going to take Toriyamas own word for how it works in a story he created then I guess there isn't much more to discuss.

If you don't want to discuss, fine, but you still missed the point of the entire conversation. I know what is, I'm talking about what should logically be. 5 and 6 both contain events that should lead to Zamasu's death, but 6 doesn't cause reasons.

If I took Toriyama's word for everything, I'd be obligated to stand by the fact that Dragon Balls recharge after 8 months, Pilaf's dog assistant is named both Shu and Soba, and Super Saiyan God was a part of the original Super Saiyan myth (See: DBM). Obviously, I choose common sense over Toriyama's notoriously unreliable word.

You have it reversed, 5 is where Black is from and 6 the last timeline created from Beerus splitting the timeline is where Zamasu dies. 5 is the natural real timeline where Black always gets created because there is no Trunks in the past yet. When trunks comes to the past he along with Beerus make timeline 6 which was the point and where the 6th ring comes from. There is no event in 5 that would result in Zamasus death.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

You have it reversed, 5 is where Black is from and 6 the last timeline created from Beerus splitting the timeline is where Zamasu dies. 5 is the natural real timeline where Black always gets created because there is no Trunks in the past yet. When trunks comes to the past he along with Beerus make timeline 6 which was the point. There is no event in 5 that would result in Zamasus death.

Whatever. If you can accept that inherent contradictions can exist in a given series of events, that A=B, B=/=C, but A=C all within the same web of events, which I guess is acceptable in a world of Toriyama's, and you're willing to accept that paradox in favor of the more consistent explanation, you're right.

[HeroR]

In either case, it wasn't Trunks that split the timeline like many pushed. It was Beerus killing Present Zamasu. That has been confirmed in both the anime and manga so this argument can be put to rest. The only thing the manga didn't used was that Black was created by a stable time loop and Trunks coming back to prevent Black's creations is a contrived coincidence in the manga.

We also confirmed that simply traveling back to the past doesn't split timelines. You have to make a meaningful changed for this to happen. The first Time Ring was created when either Trunks killed Freeza or gave Goku the medicine, Black in the anime indicates it was the medicine that created the Time Ring. Another Time Ring had to be created when Future Trunks killed his version of Cell, preventing the unseen timeline where Cell never existed. Most likely, another Time Ring was created when Krillin killed their version of Cell in Gero's lab.

So, that accounts for at least three Time Rings.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

When the most logical answer to depicted events is "this isn't possible", yet we clearly have said impossible events unfolding before our eyes...eh. Since I have my rewrite project, I tend to just accept whatever the official franchise throws at me even though I'd prefer things to work out properly there too. So I don't really have a problem if people want to handwave things this time around with whatever excuse they want to cook up.