Unpopular DB opinions

[MasenkoHA]

^To be honest most American DBZ fans only seem to care about Goku and Vegeta at least as protags.

GT really didn’t feel like any random shift in character prominence, really it felt like a natural conclusion to Z’s slowburn of supporting characters prominence. By the Buu saga who really mattered except the Saiyan characters and to a much lesser extent maaaaybe Piccolo. GT just took the next step and reduced Gohan and Goten’s roles (and Trunks after the Black Star saga)

[Majin Buu]

^To be honest most American DBZ fans only seem to care about Goku and Vegeta at least as protags.

I had a conversation IRL a week or two ago where someone brought up the whole "Japanese fan outrage forced Toriyama to shaft Gohan and bring back Goku" myth as the reason why Gohan wasn't the one that killed Buu, with both people I was speaking with of the mindset that Gohan should have been the hero. It still comes up whenever someone complains about Gohan not becoming the lead and it has always felt like a vaguely xenophobic sentiment.

GT really didn’t feel like any random shift in character prominence, really it felt like a natural conclusion to Z’s slowburn of supporting characters prominence. By the Buu saga who really mattered except the Saiyan characters and to a much lesser extent maaaaybe Piccolo. GT just took the next step and reduced Gohan and Goten’s roles (and Trunks after the Black Star saga)

Agreed. The way GT played out in that respect was just the logical endpoint of trends that had already been in effect since mid-Z, with Goku retaining his prominence since he the central character of Dragon Ball.

[Dbzfan94]

^To be honest most American DBZ fans only seem to care about Goku and Vegeta at least as protags.

Where are you getting this? Almost everyone I’ve spoken to has expressed interest in wanting to see the others do more and are sick of the “Goku and Vegeta Show”

[ABED]

^To be honest most American DBZ fans only seem to care about Goku and Vegeta at least as protags.

Where are you getting this? Almost everyone I’ve spoken to has expressed interest in wanting to see the others do more and are sick of the “Goku and Vegeta Show”

But to be fair, Dragon Ball IS The Goku Show.

[Dbzfan94]

^To be honest most American DBZ fans only seem to care about Goku and Vegeta at least as protags.

Where are you getting this? Almost everyone I’ve spoken to has expressed interest in wanting to see the others do more and are sick of the “Goku and Vegeta Show”

But to be fair, Dragon Ball IS The Goku Show.

Yeah, but it’s usually meant in the way that they don’t use the supporting cast well enough (if at all) to justify that balance.

[ABED]

Where are you getting this? Almost everyone I’ve spoken to has expressed interest in wanting to see the others do more and are sick of the “Goku and Vegeta Show”

But to be fair, Dragon Ball IS The Goku Show.

Yeah, but it’s usually meant in the way that they don’t use the supporting cast well enough (if at all) to justify that balance.

I know what they meant but I believe they think it's an ensemble story, which it isn't. Certainly DB has used the supporting cast to sometimes better/worse use at different times over its span, but it's always been a story centered around the primary protagonist, not the group.

[sunsetshimmer]

^To be honest most American DBZ fans only seem to care about Goku and Vegeta at least as protags.

GT really didn’t feel like any random shift in character prominence, really it felt like a natural conclusion to Z’s slowburn of supporting characters prominence. By the Buu saga who really mattered except the Saiyan characters and to a much lesser extent maaaaybe Piccolo. GT just took the next step and reduced Gohan and Goten’s roles (and Trunks after the Black Star saga)

Yeah Piccolo in Buu saga was just support character. He didn't appear much in GT but he was arguably more useful than in Buu saga and had more impact on story.
I wouldn't say Goten was reduced as a character. True, he and Trunks did more fighting in Buu saga, but only as a team and in form of Gotenks.
Gotenks didn't appear in GT and both Goten and Trunks (except first arc) had less screentime but they still did more on their own. I mean Goten got his first fight against main villain. He fought Baby without anyone's help.

[Hulk10]

The way I see it the old Broly has just as much potential as the new one, so if he were put into Super he could become as strong as new Broly.

[Lukmendes]

It feels like there's some goalpost moving here. Vegeta gets a entire episode to himself, not enough. Vegeta gets his own Super Saiyan 4 form, not enough. Vegeta takes part in holding the line in 2 major battles, not enough. Vegeta takes part in another fusion, not enough. All of this screen time and it just isn't enough. It seems to me that nothing less than Vegeta saving the day would have satisfied you.

You couldn't be more wrong about how I think, so let me explain, Vegeta in Namek saga tried a lot, gathered most dragon balls, got ouplayed, then once Ginyu force arrives he fails at his goals, got humiliated then killed, and I like his role there because he helped to move the plot along, looking good or not and I enjoyed both situations, and his self destruct in Boo saga, the action itself is pointless against the villain since it didn't even harm Fat Boo, but it shows the reader and the characters just how dangerous of an opponent Boo is with that healing factor, and I enjoyed that one too, meanwhile in GT everything he does feels skippable, and that's what I don't like about his role on it, so if he only got his ass kicked and moved the plot in some way, like say, something among the lines of the beating he took from Kid Boo, then I'd be okay with his role.

But when you look at the entirety of the show, from beginning to end, it's not all about Goku, that's my point. It's an oversimplification to say otherwise, and that's what the "Goku Time" complaint is doing. If GT in its entirely was all Goku all the time doing everything, you wouldn't have any focus on Pan, Trunks, Gill, Vegeta, or any other characters PERIOD. There is focus on other characters, just not a whole lot of it. And this goes back to my other point:

Dragon Ball was never an ensemble cast. There was never a mandate that X number of supporting characters need to have X amount of screen time/plot relevance in every story arc. Goku is naturally going to get most of the screen time because, again, he's the freaking main character.

So many American fans complain about the Japanese fanbase liking Goku a lot, but it seems to me that many American fans fundamentally don't get/don't like that Dragon Ball is Goku's story.

I never said that I have a problem with Goku getting a lot of attention, if I did, I would find both GT and pre-Z DB to be shit, yet, I only don't like the way GT does it, and pre-Z DB is as much "Goku Time" as GT, probably even more, the difference is in the execution, since pre-Z DB for the most part doesn't try to pretend that other characters matter if they aren't around for the story, so we have Goku doing the adventures by himself, and when the others do try something, even though they'll fail, they're moving the plot in some way (Like Roshi trying and failing to do the Mafuba, it shows that it still exists, it could seal King Piccolo again and shows the reader what the Mafuba is, and that situation also moves the plot by letting King Piccolo gather all the dragon balls, and much later that usage of Mafuba made it so that Piccolo would learn how to reverse it), so it does that better than GT with their usage of screen time, it's why I have more problems with one, but not really with the other.

So basicaly, worse execution just screwed up GT, the "Goku Time" thing isn't really right as we both pointed out uses some characters had, but the other characters just got screwed because, again, of the worse execution.

[MasenkoHA]

^ There’s absolutely a distinction between “Accept Goku is the main character” and “the show could use its supporting cast better” The Piccolo Daimou saga, as you mentioned, made great use of Tenshinhan and Muten Roshi sadly we never got anything like that from them ever again.

I don’t think anyone is asking for Goku to be displaced as the main character (except maybe hardcore Gohan fans) but the supporting cast could still be used effectively. Tenshinhan didn’t need to go from a fully nuanced character who learned the way he was taught was wrong and seeking redemption for his past crimes to that triclops dude who hangs around that proto Mr.Mime thing

[ABED]

There is also a big difference between a show centered around one or two protagonists vs. a show centered around an ensemble. Many assume DBZ is the latter.

[Majin Buu]

You couldn't be more wrong about how I think, so let me explain, Vegeta in Namek saga tried a lot, gathered most dragon balls, got ouplayed, then once Ginyu force arrives he fails at his goals, got humiliated then killed, and I like his role there because he helped to move the plot along, looking good or not and I enjoyed both situations, and his self destruct in Boo saga, the action itself is pointless against the villain since it didn't even harm Fat Boo, but it shows the reader and the characters just how dangerous of an opponent Boo is with that healing factor, and I enjoyed that one too, meanwhile in GT everything he does feels skippable, and that's what I don't like about his role on it, so if he only got his ass kicked and moved the plot in some way, like say, something among the lines of the beating he took from Kid Boo, then I'd be okay with his role.

I would add that his sacrifice against Buu also works because of what it represents for his character in addition to the immediate story function of showing how dangerous Buu is.

But otherwise, my general point was that Vegeta does get some focus in GT. Does most of it move the plot? Not significantly, but it's focus nonetheless.

I never said that I have a problem with Goku getting a lot of attention, if I did, I would find both GT and pre-Z DB to be shit, yet, I only don't like the way GT does it, and pre-Z DB is as much "Goku Time" as GT, probably even more, the difference is in the execution, since pre-Z DB for the most part doesn't try to pretend that other characters matter if they aren't around for the story, so we have Goku doing the adventures by himself, and when the others do try something, even though they'll fail, they're moving the plot in some way (Like Roshi trying and failing to do the Mafuba, it shows that it still exists, it could seal King Piccolo again and shows the reader what the Mafuba is, and that situation also moves the plot by letting King Piccolo gather all the dragon balls, and much later that usage of Mafuba made it so that Piccolo would learn how to reverse it), so it does that better than GT with their usage of screen time, it's why I have more problems with one, but not really with the other.

I think what was mentioned earlier about this already being a thing in the mid-late Z era applies here since Classic Dragon Ball and GT are in some respects two different beasts. Not saying they can't be compared, but the context that informs the two eras is not the same. The way GT handled its supporting characters was the logical endpoint of what had already been happening halfway though Z. Perhaps GT would have turned out differently on that front if it had came earlier instead of at the tail end.

So basicaly, worse execution just screwed up GT, the "Goku Time" thing isn't really right as we both pointed out uses some characters had, but the other characters just got screwed because, again, of the worse execution.

Then we're in agreement.

[BWri]

But to be fair, Dragon Ball IS The Goku Show.

Yeah, but it’s usually meant in the way that they don’t use the supporting cast well enough (if at all) to justify that balance.

I know what they meant but I believe they think it's an ensemble story, which it isn't. Certainly DB has used the supporting cast to sometimes better/worse use at different times over its span, but it's always been a story centered around the primary protagonist, not the group.

You have to admit though, that the primary protagonist disappeared for large swathes of Z, which most American fans have watched the most of. You can forgive us for thinking the show was an ensemble since characters like Piccolo, Gohan, and Vegeta got huge arcs and huge screen time before Goku showed up. As it is, Goku barely had any character development at all in Z. His development was always as a fighter which is interesting but mostly played second fiddle to the drama. Even the humans did well for themselves back then, credit to Toei.

[ABED]

Yes, if all you've seen is Z, it's tempting to think it's an ensemble story, but it's an assumption based on incomplete information. Goku is sidelined because he's the protagonist and it's Toriyama's way of amping up the drama and to delay the final confrontation.

[Hulk10]

I don't like how they made the new Broly have no tail as an adult...………...

[Dbzfan94]

I don't like how they made the new Broly have no tail as an adult...………...

Especially considering one of the original posters when the movie was first announced showed his shadow and you could see he had a tail

[Hulk10]

I don't like how they made the new Broly have no tail as an adult...………...

Especially considering one of the original posters when the movie was first announced showed his shadow and you could see he had a tail

They did?

[PremiumSalt]

I do not even remotely understand why so many people seem to love Peter Kelamis as Gokū. The most common thing I see brought up is that he impersonates Nozawa's pronunciations of attack names, but I don't think that automatically makes him good for the role. I think he's dreadful from a purely acting standpoint, and I don't think he even remotely has a grasp on Gokū's personality.

[ABED]

I do not even remotely understand why so many people seem to love Peter Kelamis as Gokū. The most common thing I see brought up is that he impersonates Nozawa's pronunciations of attack names, but I don't think that automatically makes him good for the role. I think he's dreadful from a purely acting standpoint, and I don't think he even remotely has a grasp on Gokū's personality.

The other one I've heard is his great screams and to be fair, he has a fairly impressive scream. However, that's not acting.

[Hulk10]

I don't like how a lot of people are thinking that Super Saiyan C Type and Legendary Super Saiyan are hybrid forms.