Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[perucho1990]

How can it not be as powerful as the Kamehameha on Merged Zamasu when Goku ended up on the ground, exhausted?

Beerus wanted Goku to finish off Hit asap, its logical that Goku put everyone he had in that kamehameha.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How can it not be as powerful as the Kamehameha on Merged Zamasu when Goku ended up on the ground, exhausted?

Beerus wanted Goku to finish off Hit asap, its logical that Goku put everyone he had in that kamehameha.

Goku's arms weren't broken.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The bold makes no sense. Also there isn't anything implying that Goku held back his punches in SSJ3. As stated SSJ2 Trunks is close in power to SSJ3 Goku.

What I'm bringing up isn't even an opinion. There is nothing in the manga that would lead to such a conclusion since it's literally the same as the anime except in the way it executes certain events of the plot. Not unless you reach an insane amount, grasping at straws. At that point it just becomes comical delusion. Appealing to the majority to try to validate a stance is useless. The majority used to think the Earth was flat despite there being available evidence that proved otherwise.

As I said, Goku could just force the blast into his chest to start his heart again, or he can fire multiple blasts.

Considering SSJ3 Goku curbstomped SSJ2 Trunks, I beg to differ.

It's an opinion or a theory as much as the others. Anime Goku doesn't have SSJG and is implied to have the strength of one in base or SSJ while Manga Goku has SSJG as a form and is implied to use be SSJG tier as a SSJG (duh). Also unlike back then where people believe the Earth was flat (they lack the technology to know better), we have all the episodes, translators, and evidence in front of us to know better.

Even then that's not an excuse to not use Tokitobashi, it's for anything an excuse to not use his killing technique.

Trunks is stated to be within the same range of power as SSJ3 Goku. That isn't even an opinion, that's stated fact. Goku and Trunks had one scuffle, then stopped fighting. Trunks' performance against Black who is stronger than SSJ3 Goku means that he gives Goku a significantly better fight if it's a fight to the death.

Anime Goku uses SSJG every time he uses SSB since SSB is simply using Super Saiyan while using Super Saiyan God. Goku getting stronger after absorbing the power of God doesn't mean that he can't transform into SSJG. That doesn't even make sense. Goku possessed no God ki in his base & Super Saiyan forms after absorbing Super Saiyan God and getting stronger.
It doesn't really matter if people have all the evidence if they don't know how to interpret it properly.

Going in circles now. Hit didn't use Time skip since Goku already knows how to counter it, not because he is flat out immune to being frozen.

[Helios518]

Trunks is stated to be within the same range of power as SSJ3 Goku. That isn't even an opinion, that's stated fact. Goku and Trunks had one scuffle, then stopped fighting. Trunks' performance against Black who is stronger than SSJ3 Goku means that he gives Goku a significantly better fight if it's a fight to the death.

Anime Goku uses SSJG every time he uses SSB since SSB is simply using Super Saiyan while using Super Saiyan God. Goku getting stronger after absorbing the power of God doesn't mean that he can't transform into SSJG. That doesn't even make sense. Goku possessed no God ki in his base & Super Saiyan forms after absorbing Super Saiyan God and getting stronger.
It doesn't really matter if people have all the evidence if they don't know how to interpret it properly.

Going in circles now. Hit didn't use Time skip since Goku already knows how to counter it, not because he is flat out immune to being frozen.

Provide me a scan in the anime that SSJ3 Goku is around the same power as SSJ2 Trunks.

That's literally the two base theory and as much as a fact as the other theories. And somehow you're the only one out of virtually everybody else could interpret this episode correctly? You might as well say that you're the only one right and everybody else is wrong.

What's your point? Goku countered Hit's killing technique and Hit still proceeded to use it anyways. Either way Hit could use Tokitobashi and kill Goku ten times over before Goku goes kaioken.

[perucho1990]

Goku's arms weren't broken.

But he still ended up on the ground, exhausted, why wouldnt he use all he had in the tank when Beerus just told him to end the fight already.

Hit could still defeat Vegeta because Vegeta doesnt have a counter to tokibitobashi like Goku has(Kaioken).

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Trunks is stated to be within the same range of power as SSJ3 Goku. That isn't even an opinion, that's stated fact. Goku and Trunks had one scuffle, then stopped fighting. Trunks' performance against Black who is stronger than SSJ3 Goku means that he gives Goku a significantly better fight if it's a fight to the death.

Anime Goku uses SSJG every time he uses SSB since SSB is simply using Super Saiyan while using Super Saiyan God. Goku getting stronger after absorbing the power of God doesn't mean that he can't transform into SSJG. That doesn't even make sense. Goku possessed no God ki in his base & Super Saiyan forms after absorbing Super Saiyan God and getting stronger.
It doesn't really matter if people have all the evidence if they don't know how to interpret it properly.

Going in circles now. Hit didn't use Time skip since Goku already knows how to counter it, not because he is flat out immune to being frozen.

Provide me a scan in the anime that SSJ3 Goku is around the same power as SSJ2 Trunks.

That's literally the two base theory and as much as a fact as the other theories. And somehow you're the only one out of virtually everybody else could interpret this episode correctly? You might as well say that you're the only one right and everybody else is wrong.

What's your point? Goku countered Hit's killing technique and Hit still proceeded to use it anyways. Either way Hit could use Tokitobashi and kill Goku ten times over before Goku goes kaioken.

Don't need one. The manga validates my statement.

No, that ridiculous theory states that Goku and Vegeta have a "normal base" and a "god ki" base. When they use their "normal base" in tandem with Super Saiyan forms, they transform into their regular SSJ forms. When they use SSJ in their "god ki" base, they go SSB.

That's not what's shown though, which is why this delusional theory has no merit. Using god ki at all makes them transform into SSJG, then going Super Saiyan while in that state makes them go SSB.
Not sure how my statement somehow agrees with it.

Hit can't even use Time skip before Goku can transform, so once again no. His assassination technique also failed to kill Goku.

[Helios518]

Don't need one. The manga validates my statement.

No, that ridiculous theory states that Goku and Vegeta have a "normal base" and a "god ki" base. When they use their "normal base" in tandem with Super Saiyan forms, they transform into their regular SSJ forms. When they use SSJ in their "god ki" base, they go SSB.

That's not what's shown though, which is why this delusional theory has no merit. Using god ki at all makes them transform into SSJG, then going Super Saiyan while in that state makes them go SSB.
Not sure how my statement somehow agrees with it.

Hit can't even use Time skip before Goku can transform, so once again no. His assassination technique also failed to kill Goku.

Burden of proof fallacy, mate. You still haven't proved how the manga supplements the anime despite two different continuities.

Using God ki in base doesn't make them go SSJG considering the movies have them do exactly that without going SSJG (If you want to use a different continuity for an example) or during Goku & Vegeta's training in Whis' chambers they literally contain their ki to make it god ki but still didn't go SSJG.

Hit can use it before Goku goes SSJBKKx10 (according to you) and considering how long it takes Goku to do just that, Hit has more than enough time to use Tokitobashi.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Don't need one. The manga validates my statement.

No, that ridiculous theory states that Goku and Vegeta have a "normal base" and a "god ki" base. When they use their "normal base" in tandem with Super Saiyan forms, they transform into their regular SSJ forms. When they use SSJ in their "god ki" base, they go SSB.

That's not what's shown though, which is why this delusional theory has no merit. Using god ki at all makes them transform into SSJG, then going Super Saiyan while in that state makes them go SSB.
Not sure how my statement somehow agrees with it.

Hit can't even use Time skip before Goku can transform, so once again no. His assassination technique also failed to kill Goku.

Burden of proof fallacy, mate. You still haven't proved how the manga supplements the anime despite two different continuities.

Using God ki in base doesn't make them go SSJG considering the movies have them do exactly that without going SSJG (If you want to use a different continuity for an example) or during Goku & Vegeta's training in Whis' chambers they literally contain their ki to make it god ki but still didn't go SSJG.

Hit can use it before Goku goes SSJBKKx10 (according to you) and considering how long it takes Goku to do just that, Hit has more than enough time to use Tokitobashi.

You're making up criteria that I don't have to fulfill. The manga is nothing more but promotional material for the anime. All media portray the same events in the series. There isn't any powerscale difference between the anime, movies and manga.

They don't have god ki in base in any media since everyone can sense them. That points going to be ignored if you keep bringing it up.

I've stated multiple times that Goku can transform faster than Hit can use Time skip, so I don't even know what you're talking about here. Kaiokenx10 is pointless anyway since Hit can freeze it. Kaiokenx2 is enough to shrug off Hit's attacks and maul him after Time skip finishes.
Goku and Vegeta weren't making god ki. They were containing their ki to improve their ki control, a skill that's needed in order to use SSB since the form requires perfect ki control.

[Helios518]

You're making up criteria that I don't have to fulfill. The manga is nothing more but promotional material for the anime. All media portray the same events in the series. There isn't any powerscale difference between the anime, movies and manga.

They don't have god ki in base in any media since everyone can sense them. That points going to be ignored if you keep bringing it up.

I've stated multiple times that Goku can transform faster than Hit can use Time skip, so I don't even know what you're talking about here. Kaiokenx10 is pointless anyway since Hit can freeze it. Kaiokenx2 is enough to shrug off Hit's attacks and maul him after Time skip finishes.
Goku and Vegeta weren't making god ki. They were containing their ki to improve their ki control, a skill that's needed in order to use SSB since the form requires perfect ki control.

Manga Goku going SSJG while Anime Goku going SSJBKK is the same event? You only believe there's no power-scaling differences because every time there is one you make head-canon or twist evidence to fit your point.

Considering they Toriyama and the movies said Goku absorbed SSJG in his base while Vegeta was implied to do it off-screen. They're most definitely using God ki.

If SSJBKKx10 can be freezed and Current Goku is weaker than that then Hit should have zero problems using Tokitobashi on Current SSJB Goku as it can't be countered.

[Marlowe89]

They don't have god ki in base in any media since everyone can sense them. That points going to be ignored if you keep bringing it up.

Episode 20 shows them using God ki in base though. Episodes 47 and 71 also at least strongly imply that they can use God ki in base, since in both episodes Vegeta triggers some kind of glowing, altered base state against Whis and then transforms directly into Super Saiyan Blue from that state. Outside of Super, we see Goku suddenly triggering an altered SSG-level base state against Whis in the RoF manga.

I think it definitely exists - we just don't see it much in the series because it would be rather inconveniently confusing and perhaps more importantly, Goku and Vegeta don't really need it.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You're making up criteria that I don't have to fulfill. The manga is nothing more but promotional material for the anime. All media portray the same events in the series. There isn't any powerscale difference between the anime, movies and manga.

They don't have god ki in base in any media since everyone can sense them. That points going to be ignored if you keep bringing it up.

I've stated multiple times that Goku can transform faster than Hit can use Time skip, so I don't even know what you're talking about here. Kaiokenx10 is pointless anyway since Hit can freeze it. Kaiokenx2 is enough to shrug off Hit's attacks and maul him after Time skip finishes.
Goku and Vegeta weren't making god ki. They were containing their ki to improve their ki control, a skill that's needed in order to use SSB since the form requires perfect ki control.

Manga Goku going SSJG while Anime Goku going SSJBKK is the same event? You only believe there's no power-scaling differences because every time there is one you make head-canon or twist evidence to fit your point.

Considering they Toriyama and the movies said Goku absorbed SSJG in his base while Vegeta was implied to do it off-screen. They're most definitely using God ki.

If SSJBKKx10 can be freezed and Current Goku is weaker than that then Hit should have zero problems using Tokitobashi on Current SSJB Goku as it can't be countered.

I'm not the one spewing out head canon. You're claiming that everyone in the manga U6 tournament except Hit conveniently, is for some odd reason hundreds to thousands of times weaker than their anime counterpart.

Stop twisting words. Toriyama merely stated that Goku absorbed SSJG's power. He didn't say anything about it becoming his base form. And that's not possible since once again, Goku and Vegeta have no god ki in base since everyone can sense them. End of story.

Goku never stated that Hit couldn't freeze him, so I'm not seeing the point here. Goku stating that Hit's assassin technique wouldn't work on him anymore doesn't mean that it can't kill him.

They don't have god ki in base in any media since everyone can sense them. That points going to be ignored if you keep bringing it up.

Episode 20 shows them using God ki in base though. Episodes 47 and 71 also at least strongly imply that they can use God ki in base, since in both episodes Vegeta triggers some kind of glowing, altered base state against Whis and then transforms directly into Super Saiyan Blue from that state. Outside of Super, we see Goku suddenly triggering an altered SSG-level base state against Whis in the RoF manga.

I think it definitely exists - we just don't see it much in the series because it would be rather inconveniently confusing and perhaps more importantly, Goku and Vegeta don't really need it.

That's just their regular base state. Super Saiyan Blue can be transformed into from any state, even SSJ3, so I'm not seeing how Vegeta transforming from base to SSB hints at some second base state that was never implied to exist anywhere.

As far as Goku is concerned, that just implies that he reached his previous SSJG level.

[Marlowe89]

That's just their regular base state.

I'm not sure how. In Episode 20, Whis instructs them both to meditate and focus their ki strictly within themselves, which causes them to manifest God ki as soon as they clash fists. Vegeta appears to do the same exact meditative thing in Episodes 47 and 71 and then enters some kind of weird glowy-looking base form; then he uses that form as a sort of catalyst to go into Super Saiyan Blue, which would make sense because Super Saiyan Blue is defined as "the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God".

Believe what you want I guess, but if that altered base state in Episode 47/71 wasn't in any way tied to God ki then I personally think that'd be a pretty big coincidence.

[TheUltimateNinja]

That's just their regular base state.

I'm not sure how. In Episode 20, Whis instructs them both to meditate and focus their ki strictly within themselves, which causes them to manifest God ki as soon as they clash fists. Vegeta appears to do the same exact meditative thing in Episodes 47 and 71 and then enters some kind of weird glowy-looking base form; then he uses that form as a sort of catalyst to go into Super Saiyan Blue, which would make sense because Super Saiyan Blue is defined as "the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God".

Believe what you want I guess, but if that altered base state in Episode 47/71 wasn't in any way tied to God ki then I personally think that'd be a pretty big coincidence.

At this point it's become clear that people on the other side absolutely will not accept this unless the characters flat out state they are using God ki or this is explicitly stated in a guide.

[perucho1990]

Manga Goku going SSJG while Anime Goku going SSJBKK is the same event? You only believe there's no power-scaling differences because every time there is one you make head-canon or twist evidence to fit your point.

Considering they Toriyama and the movies said Goku absorbed SSJG in his base while Vegeta was implied to do it off-screen. They're most definitely using God ki.

If SSJBKKx10 can be freezed and Current Goku is weaker than that then Hit should have zero problems using Tokitobashi on Current SSJB Goku as it can't be countered.

This sounds insane but Vegeta probably reached U6 SSJBKKX10 Goku level on episode 63 after training in the ROSAT and later on "beating up" Black, which then it caused him to get stronger, logically speaking(Black zenkais were very hax).

Remember that Vegeta reached Godtier level in 6 months after training with Whiss, so reaching U6 SSJBKKX10 Goku level after training for 12 hours(6months) in the ROSAT was very possible.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

How can they pull off Beerus still being stronger than Goku. It's as if Beerus doesn't even realize his own power that he owns and there's no limits to it.

Never mind the additional years he spent in the RoSaT with Vegeta, or the training with Whis, or surpassing a previous form of Super Saiyan God. And pay no attention to anything else that gives them power ups; because the plot needs Beerus to always be stronger.

And what's Kaioken X10?

[Abra kadabra]

I hope goku and geets never surpass Beerus. The idea that some fans want these full blood saiyans (who have honestly become stronger than they have any right to be) becoming stronger than a god of destruction is ludicrous

AT thankfully knows this. that's why he says he has no plans for them to ever reach that level

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I hope goku and geets never surpass Beerus. The idea that some fans want these full blood saiyans (who have honestly become stronger than they have any right to be) becoming stronger than a god of destruction is ludicrous

AT thankfully knows this. that's why he says he has no plans for them to ever reach that level

I don't believe a particular title someone has should place limits on others just based on what you're called or what your job is.
Trunks was able to kill someone who claimed to be an immortal (and he was).

And at this point it's clear (to me at least) that Toriyama pretty much intended on the Saiyans being limitless.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

That's just their regular base state.

I'm not sure how. In Episode 20, Whis instructs them both to meditate and focus their ki strictly within themselves, which causes them to manifest God ki as soon as they clash fists. Vegeta appears to do the same exact meditative thing in Episodes 47 and 71 and then enters some kind of weird glowy-looking base form; then he uses that form as a sort of catalyst to go into Super Saiyan Blue, which would make sense because Super Saiyan Blue is defined as "the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God".

Believe what you want I guess, but if that altered base state in Episode 47/71 wasn't in any way tied to God ki then I personally think that'd be a pretty big coincidence.

The point of their training was to increase their ki control since perfect ki control is required for SSB. That is why Whis put them in the dimension where they wouldn't be able to move unless they didn't let their ki flow out.

Their god ki exists in their bodies, but they aren't using it in their base forms. I don't know why this is hard to understand. The blue ki being shown doesn't matter since they aren't using it. The scenes purpose is simply to show them awakening the power.

[HeroR]

Goku's arms weren't broken.

But he still ended up on the ground, exhausted, why wouldnt he use all he had in the tank when Beerus just told him to end the fight already.

Hit could still defeat Vegeta because Vegeta doesnt have a counter to tokibitobashi like Goku has(Kaioken).

Goku was on the ground after Merged Zamasu stomped Vegeta and him. He still got up, transformed, and released that giant Kamehameha that melted half of his face. So you shouldn't take Goku being on the ground and tired as proof that he put everything he had. If he did, Hit would be dead. He put enough power in the Kamehameha to knock Hit down since he didn't want to kill him, unlike Merged Zamasu.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Is SSGod confirmed to be above SSJ3 Vegetto? I know Goku said Vegetto wouldn't be enough to deal with Beerus, but SSGod wasn't enough either. And perhaps he didn't consider Vegetto going SSJ3.