Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

Even if Goku was "underestimated" by a magnitude of ANY NUMBER, the result would very likely have been the same.

C'mon, guys. The biggest, most knowledgeable Dragon Ball fans from across the world helped on the research for the Goku side of this project/video, and we're all completely fine with the result. Please take the hint.

Be honest, are we wrong for thinking Cell can really create a supernova with his energy? I'm not arguing, just wondering.Cause maybe all the time I've spent arguing is for nothing.

You certainly aren't in the wrong. Ben and Chad made hefty assumptions.

[VegettoEX]

I dunno. Maybe?

But, the point is, it doesn't affect this fight. At all.

[dbzfan7]

I dunno. Maybe?

But, the point is, it doesn't affect this fight. At all.

I don't know why people expect SSJ God to change anything. Even if Goku somehow did become stronger then Superman with it, I doubt death battle will change anything. The fans would be lucky if they even tweeted something about it.

[goku the krump dancer]

Well taking the recent translation about Cell into consideration I came up with my own "Ki output" for Goku, Vegeta, Gogeta and Vegetto. Mind you I accept ScrewAttacks final decision and I'm willing to accept that Superman still may be able to with stand and dish out more force than what I managed to conjure up.

I posted it in the "Power Levels" thread already so I'm just gonna repost it here:

Well heres my interpretation on some power levels and mind you this is based off the recent translation that Cell actually had the power to destroy the Solar System. Now being that Gohan was weakened and still had enough power left to rival and eventually over power Cell's Solar Kamehameha I have SSJ2 kid Gohan at 100% health at least twice as strong as SPC. In the Boo arc Goku makes a statement that Dabura is around Cell's level which is now considered nothing and being that Vegeta didn't really argue with him on that we can wager that he was referring to Super Perfect Cell. I'm going to assume Goku and Vegeta are only going to need SSJ1 in order to kill Dabura, which means in the Boo arc they will only need SSJ1 to defeat SPC.

I'm using "Solar Systems" to gauge their power because I believe with no restriction on power or blast radius the Saiyans post end of the Cell arc to the End of the series are capable of creating a blast thats ridiculously big also not to mention when I put an "s" at the end of Solar Systems it could mean either A. more than one Solar System or B. destroying the Solar System more than once. For example I have SSJ2 kid Gohan at being able to destroy two Solar Systems or being able to destroy their/our Solar System more than once.

Now that thats out the way, without further a doe!!

Super Perfect Cell - One Solar System

SSJ2 Kid Gohan 100% - Two Solar Systems

Weakened SSJ2 Kid Gohan - One Solar system +

SSJ Goku (Boo arc) - Two Solar Systems

SSJ2 - Four Solar Systems

SSJ3 - SixTeen Solar Systems

SSJ Vegeta - Two Solar Systems

SSJ2- Four Solar systems

Now with fusion I'm going to use the daizenshuu's comparison of addition for the dance and multiplication for the Potara. Also I will be using the combined maximums of Goku and Vegeta as the base power of Gogeta and Vegetto.

Gogeta base - 20 Solar Systems

SSJ1- 1,000 Solar Systems

SSJ2 - 2,000 Solar Systems

SSJ3 - 8,000 Solar Systems

Vegetto base - 64, Solar Systems

SSJ1 - 3,000 + Solar Systems... the actual number is 3,200 I just rounded down

SSJ2 - 6,000 + Solar Systems... again I rounded down from 6,400

SSJ3 - 25,000 Solar Systems and 26,000 Solar Systems if you round up from 25,600

Thats all I have for now. I know some of you can't imagine the Z characters making a blast big enough to engulf multiple planets and like to say that they have to destroy the Sun in order for them to get any type of Solar System busting going on, which is fine. What ever it takes to help you understand where I'm coming from. Maybe i'm sticking my nose where it doesn't belong lol.

The DeathBattle is over and done with so I realize it will have no effect on it what so ever but whatves. Also keeping in character I know Goku and possibly Vegeta will never go this far to win a fight but its still something that I think they're capable of doing as outrageous as it is.

[GetGone899]

Even if Goku was "underestimated" by a magnitude of ANY NUMBER, the result would very likely have been the same.

C'mon, guys. The biggest, most knowledgeable Dragon Ball fans from across the world helped on the research for the Goku side of this project/video, and we're all completely fine with the result. Please take the hint.

Be honest, are we wrong for thinking Cell can really create a supernova with his energy? I'm not arguing, just wondering.Cause maybe all the time I've spent arguing is for nothing.

You certainly aren't in the wrong. Ben and Chad made hefty assumptions.

Well taking the recent translation about Cell into consideration I came up with my own "Ki output" for Goku, Vegeta, Gogeta and Vegetto. Mind you I accept ScrewAttacks final decision and I'm willing to accept that Superman still may be able to with stand and dish out more force than what I managed to conjure up.

I posted it in the "Power Levels" thread already so I'm just gonna repost it here:

Well heres my interpretation on some power levels and mind you this is based off the recent translation that Cell actually had the power to destroy the Solar System. Now being that Gohan was weakened and still had enough power left to rival and eventually over power Cell's Solar Kamehameha I have SSJ2 kid Gohan at 100% health at least twice as strong as SPC. In the Boo arc Goku makes a statement that Dabura is around Cell's level which is now considered nothing and being that Vegeta didn't really argue with him on that we can wager that he was referring to Super Perfect Cell. I'm going to assume Goku and Vegeta are only going to need SSJ1 in order to kill Dabura, which means in the Boo arc they will only need SSJ1 to defeat SPC.

I'm using "Solar Systems" to gauge their power because I believe with no restriction on power or blast radius the Saiyans post end of the Cell arc to the End of the series are capable of creating a blast thats ridiculously big also not to mention when I put an "s" at the end of Solar Systems it could mean either A. more than one Solar System or B. destroying the Solar System more than once. For example I have SSJ2 kid Gohan at being able to destroy two Solar Systems or being able to destroy their/our Solar System more than once.

Now that thats out the way, without further a doe!!

Super Perfect Cell - One Solar System

SSJ2 Kid Gohan 100% - Two Solar Systems

Weakened SSJ2 Kid Gohan - One Solar system +

SSJ Goku (Boo arc) - Two Solar Systems

SSJ2 - Four Solar Systems

SSJ3 - SixTeen Solar Systems

SSJ Vegeta - Two Solar Systems

SSJ2- Four Solar systems

Now with fusion I'm going to use the daizenshuu's comparison of addition for the dance and multiplication for the Potara. Also I will be using the combined maximums of Goku and Vegeta as the base power of Gogeta and Vegetto.

Gogeta base - 20 Solar Systems

SSJ1- 1,000 Solar Systems

SSJ2 - 2,000 Solar Systems

SSJ3 - 8,000 Solar Systems

Vegetto base - 64, Solar Systems

SSJ1 - 3,000 + Solar Systems... the actual number is 3,200 I just rounded down

SSJ2 - 6,000 + Solar Systems... again I rounded down from 6,400

SSJ3 - 25,000 Solar Systems and 26,000 Solar Systems if you round up from 25,600

Thats all I have for now. I know some of you can't imagine the Z characters making a blast big enough to engulf multiple planets and like to say that they have to destroy the Sun in order for them to get any type of Solar System busting going on, which is fine. What ever it takes to help you understand where I'm coming from. Maybe i'm sticking my nose where it doesn't belong lol.

The DeathBattle is over and done with so I realize it will have no effect on it what so ever but whatves. Also keeping in character I know Goku and possibly Vegeta will never go this far to win a fight but its still something that I think they're capable of doing as outrageous as it is.

Thank you for your responses. I appreciate them. I've decided not to waste anymore time on it. Superman has been KOED by supernovas, but why even bother? They'll never fight anyway.

[dario03]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLunw4lPi7Y

1. Why is that a problem? Goku had trouble holding up 40 tons in base form when he was dead for 7 years. That building might of been 2-300,000 tons.

2. I don't recall where the other 2 examples are from off the top of my head but the Vega example is from Countdown 48. Basically Jimmy Olsen rushes outside because theres something strange going on up in the sky, as he is leaving the Daily Planet building he signals Superman with his signal watch, then Jimmy quickly saves a couple of people (because he starts having super powers for some reason), and while he is talking to them a new god crashes down nearby, Jimmy walks over and then Superman shows up and says "Sorry I'm late I was out near Vega when I got your ---". So basically your looking at lightyears travelled in minutes. And I already said that Superman isn't usually as fast as the Flash but he is close and even if he wasn't and was only 1/1,000,000th as fast as the Flash he would still be well over 8000x faster than the speed of light if we do the math.

4. You mean that video that you are disagreeing with? If you're going to use the death battle video to prove that Goku can sense Supermans power then we can just say that Superman is faster, stronger, and more durable because thats what they said. And so what if Superman isn't a android, 17 and 18 are just modified Humans not full on robots but none of the Z fighters could sense their power. I would say its because their power is different than the ki that Goku is used to and so is Superman's power. But again I don't think that matters any ways because personally I think Superman wouldn't need a sun dip to beat Goku and if he wanted to go for a dip he would despite Goku's efforts.

1-It was 400 tons + at that time Goku was more than 4000 times stronger than he was before .

2-I couldn't find the chapter .

4-We can take the right informations only , it's simple 17 and 18 are androids but Superman is not , so why can't they sense his energy ?

and as i said before Goku will notice that superman's speed is increasing .

How many times are you going to post that video? Which by the way we've already said multiple times that Superman from the animated series is weak. Oh and that video proves nothing about Superman compared to the Flash.

1. It was 40 tons and 4,000 times 40tons is 160,000tons which is the weight of a large building but no where near as much as very large buildings. So I'm not seeing a problem since it doesn't seem like lifting strength goes up with power levels at a even rate, notice that base Goku had a power level at least in the millions and struggled with 40tons (or even 400tons if you prefer). Heck you could easily say that the problem is that GT made him to strong and that him lifting a building that big is being generous. But this really doesn't matter because even if it was 400 tons and even if Goku was 4,000,000,000,000,000 times as strong his physical strength is still no where near Superman's shown feats.

2. I don't know what to tell you. Its there, its Countdown 48 Death Of A New God, May 30, 2007.

4. I already explained why they might not sense Superman's power. The Z fighters have shown that they can sense ki, the androids and Superman are not powered by Ki, the androids power is artificial and Superman's is from the Sun. And so what if Goku notices Superman's speed increasing, like I said if we are going to base speed off of math then Superman at full speed would be at the sun in nearly a instant and theres no way Goku could stop him which also doesn't matter because Superman wouldn't need to Sun dip.

[Mewzard]

Even if Goku was "underestimated" by a magnitude of ANY NUMBER, the result would very likely have been the same.

C'mon, guys. The biggest, most knowledgeable Dragon Ball fans from across the world helped on the research for the Goku side of this project/video, and we're all completely fine with the result. Please take the hint.

Be honest, are we wrong for thinking Cell can really create a supernova with his energy? I'm not arguing, just wondering.Cause maybe all the time I've spent arguing is for nothing.

Remember, Cell SAID he could do that. Cell has been known to overestimate himself quite often, and he could have just been bluffing Gohan to get him, his only threat, to take his attack so he would die.

Cell certainly never demonstrated the level of destructiveness to do in the Solar System.

Hell, an attack from Buu (albeit, not full power of course) only destroyed a tenth of the planet according to the manga. Even for a more casual attack, it wouldn't be that great. Let's say 0.0001% of his full power (a percent of a percent) went into that attack, it would destroy an Earth-sized planet 100,000 times over, but that wouldn't even be a tenth of what was needed to destroy the Sun (not factoring in energy lost *traveling around, what, 8 light minutes in distance?*, the much greater gravity holding the material together, the width of the attack *meaning how much energy is carried for every bit of distance*, the length of time needing to maintain such a release of constant energy, and such like that.).

Of course, a percent of a percent might be generous, but for the sake of the argument, we can work with that (this being a surface destruction, rather than Freeza's patented core destruction, since Freeza never showed the ability to destroy an entire planet via obliterating it, but rather de-stabilizing the core).

[TheMightyOzaru]

Cell is stated to be capable of destroying the solar system in Herm's translation for Ssj grade 5.

[GetGone899]

Even if Goku was "underestimated" by a magnitude of ANY NUMBER, the result would very likely have been the same.

C'mon, guys. The biggest, most knowledgeable Dragon Ball fans from across the world helped on the research for the Goku side of this project/video, and we're all completely fine with the result. Please take the hint.

Be honest, are we wrong for thinking Cell can really create a supernova with his energy? I'm not arguing, just wondering.Cause maybe all the time I've spent arguing is for nothing.

Remember, Cell SAID he could do that. Cell has been known to overestimate himself quite often, and he could have just been bluffing Gohan to get him, his only threat, to take his attack so he would die.

Cell certainly never demonstrated the level of destructiveness to do in the Solar System.

Hell, an attack from Buu (albeit, not full power of course) only destroyed a tenth of the planet according to the manga. Even for a more casual attack, it wouldn't be that great. Let's say 0.0001% of his full power (a percent of a percent) went into that attack, it would destroy an Earth-sized planet 100,000 times over, but that wouldn't even be a tenth of what was needed to destroy the Sun (not factoring in energy lost *traveling around, what, 8 light minutes in distance?*, the much greater gravity holding the material together, the width of the attack *meaning how much energy is carried for every bit of distance*, the length of time needing to maintain such a release of constant energy, and such like that.).

Of course, a percent of a percent might be generous, but for the sake of the argument, we can work with that (this being a surface destruction, rather than Freeza's patented core destruction, since Freeza never showed the ability to destroy an entire planet via obliterating it, but rather de-stabilizing the core).

This is what I was talking about when I whined about others downplaying Dragon Ball characters. Maybe Superman is too overpowered for Goku to win, fine. But Dragon Ball Z characters have been proven to be multi-solar system busters by Herms' translation and the fact Super Saiyan 3 is four times stronger than Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, injured and with hand can overpower Cell who has been proven to be able to blow the solar system up. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan would have to be twice as strong as Cell who is a solar system buster. And Super Saiyan 3 Goku is four times stronger than that. Why is this so hard for people to accept? It's like they have a bias against Goku or something.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=22411

[VegettoEX]

And again, people have no idea what "bias" means. C'mon . Every time you claim someone else has "bias", all you do is come across looking like you've got your own crazy-person bias.

Gohan beat Cell, sure. Was it Gohan? Or was it the attack Gohan used? Or was it the combination of extra mental/physical/spiritual power that Goku lent to it? Or was it Vegeta helping take Cell off-guard? Or was it all of that put together?

Kuririn's Kienzan could beat Nappa, but Kuririn on his own could not beat Nappa.

Please. Everyone. Stop looking for linear logic in our favorite series.

[Rocketman]

On one part is truth, however, depends on the star.

the sun= create a nova

STILL WRONG

A nova is an explosion ON a star, specifically a white dwarf star that accreted too much matter from a partner star and blasts it off in a gigantic nuclear eruption.

The Sun will not nova or supernova. It will just swell up so big that its outer layers puff out in what's called a planetary nebula.

[GetGone899]

And again, people have no idea what "bias" means. C'mon . Every time you claim someone else has "bias", all you do is come across looking like you've got your own crazy-person bias.

Gohan beat Cell, sure. Was it Gohan? Or was it the attack Gohan used? Or was it the combination of extra mental/physical/spiritual power that Goku lent to it? Or was it Vegeta helping take Cell off-guard? Or was it all of that put together?

Kuririn's Kienzan could beat Nappa, but Kuririn on his own could not beat Nappa.

Please. Everyone. Stop looking for linear logic in our favorite series.

Fine, you raise a good point. Still, Cell can destroy a solar system and later characters were stronger. I'll end it there and stop with this discussion.

[dario03]

Again all this stuff comes down to how literally you take the statements. If you want to say that Cell can destroy the Sun then fine theres reasons to believe it. However we could then also take Coldgast's statement of "thats like taking 15 supernovas to the face" literally and bam all of sudden Superman can take 15 supernovas to the face no problem. Just like if we start talking about stuff that was done in DBZ but not by Goku then we can do the same for Superman. For instance Superman Prime (not from 1,000,000 but the aged version of Superboy Prime) survived a blast that destroyed a entire DC universe. A DC universe is usually very big as in infinite or billions of lightyears across. Now sure Superman isn't as strong as Prime but a couple of Supermans were able to fight him without sundipping so hey maybe Superman can survive a explosion that would destroy half the universe. Theres so much material in DC that you could come up with ways of saying Superman can do almost anything.

On one part is truth, however, depends on the star.

the sun= create a nova

STILL WRONG

A nova is an explosion ON a star, specifically a white dwarf star that accreted too much matter from a partner star and blasts it off in a gigantic nuclear eruption.

The Sun will not nova or supernova. It will just swell up so big that its outer layers puff out in what's called a planetary nebula.

You know there was once a time where i wondered "hey why did Rocketman name himself Rocketman..." and then he goes and posts stuff like this

[TonyTheTiger]

If the matchup were legitimately close then all the little details might make a difference and arguing over them could mean something. But, really, this match just does not work in practice. Whenever you try to spin something in Goku's favor, it ironically only serves to make Superman that much stronger. I'm perfectly willing to take Cell's statement at face value that he can destroy the solar system (which essentially means destroy the sun). But you know what happens if we take Cell's statement at face value? It means we have to take Coldcast's statement at face value. Meaning Superman can take 15 supernovas point blank to the face and be no worse for wear (in this particular story he actually let Coldcast hit him as part of a gambit). Death Battle actually denied Coldcast's statement as a possible exaggeration while taking Bulma's statement about the Gero bomb as truth. So they actually leaned in favor of Goku most of the time because of how hard he was going to get rocked.

So, yeah, you can argue Goku's numbers if you want (it's fiction, after all) but whatever logic you use to come up with those numbers for Goku (taking statements at face value, using various formulas, etc.) you'd have to apply the same logic to Superman if you want to be consistent. And doing so inevitably makes Clark even more powerful than he was said to be in Death Battle. If they undersold Goku then they really undersold Superman.

[Insertclevername]

You know there was once a time where i wondered "hey why did Rocketman name himself Rocketman..." and then he goes and posts stuff like this

I just thought he liked Elton John.

[GetGone899]

Here's a related question. Why didn't Akira Toriyama make it more apparent how strong and fast his characters are? Even Sailor Moon can beat Superman. Sailor Moon has her Eternal Sailor Moon form. She's able to fly anywhere in the galaxy in an instant using pure speed. She also has galaxy level power. http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.c ... ailor+Moon
I find it odd now how weak Dragon Ball Z characters are compared to other universes. Seems like the story I grew up with as a kid had more hype than power.

[Saiga]

Why should AT have made Goku strong enough to beat Superman?

[GetGone899]

Why should AT have made Goku strong enough to beat Superman?

That's not what I mean. It's odd that a whiny school girl can one shot Dragon Ball Z. Then again, that Haruhi Suzumiya girl is even stronger. I wonder, what does power mean in a story? What is it really worth?

[Saiga]

Why should AT have made Goku strong enough to beat Superman?

That's not what I mean. It's odd that a whiny school girl can one shot Dragon Ball Z. Then again, that Haruhi Suzumiya girl is even stronger. I wonder, what does power mean in a story? What is it really worth?

The thing is, they're not the same series, so it shouldn't really be odd. This is why I don't like comparing the powers of characters to two different series, because they often have completely different power scales.

Goku's power and feats are still amazing, even if a few random characters in different series are way beyond him.

[ABED]

Why should AT have made Goku strong enough to beat Superman?

That's not what I mean. It's odd that a whiny school girl can one shot Dragon Ball Z. Then again, that Haruhi Suzumiya girl is even stronger. I wonder, what does power mean in a story? What is it really worth?

The thing is, they're not the same series, so it shouldn't really be odd. This is why I don't like comparing the powers of characters to two different series, because they often have completely different power scales.

Goku's power and feats are still amazing, even if a few random characters in different series are way beyond him.

Not to mention Superman's power goes up and down depending on who the author is. In Superman: The Animated Series, he was nowhere near as powerful as many incarnations, but it made for better drama.