Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GTX]

I know the anime guide said Super Vegito was perhaps stronger than a SSJ4 but isn't this contradicted by Elder Kai (?) saying Baby had the greatest Ki he'd ever felt?

Why is this matter anyway?
I actually've not watched it.
Fusion reborn is happened before vegetto.
Janemba is also killed by gogeta
Actually This is not even related let alone canon.
I think it's safer to disregard non canon because too many and too random furthermore fusion reborn, where the timeline actually cannot fit in anywhere.

How about i state the possible reasons.
1. goku is in dead state so in normal condition goku cannot use his ssj 3 this well
2. Janemba is special. It's more of magic than your typical ki that can be measured well.
3. in the end goku can only kill janemba in his gogeta form
4. goku is measuring his power but it's not fit at all for combat. so janemba can shoot very powerful blast to defeat goku but it's too slow or goku will eventually lose with its super regenerative ability.
5. it's just mistranslation or sort of because janemba has very unique power and very unique weakness
6. super janemba is his combat form and not at all increasing his maximum attack or the fat janemba is only his shell

[buutenks]

We have no idea how powerful raging vegeta is.So power scaling is thus useless.

IMO beerus and whis and so on are simply stronger because they appeared later on,after GT.

[GTX]

We have no idea how powerful raging vegeta is.So power scaling is thus useless.

IMO beerus and whis and so on are simply stronger because they appeared later on,after GT.

No, GT is placed after super so GT is stronger certainly.

[Khin]

We have no idea how powerful raging vegeta is.So power scaling is thus useless.

IMO beerus and whis and so on are simply stronger because they appeared later on,after GT.

No, GT is placed after super so GT is stronger certainly.

GT and Super are separate timelines,if its not,it will make a lot of plotholes.

[GTX]

We have no idea how powerful raging vegeta is.So power scaling is thus useless.

IMO beerus and whis and so on are simply stronger because they appeared later on,after GT.

No, GT is placed after super so GT is stronger certainly.

GT and Super are separate timelines,if its not,it will make a lot of plotholes.

What plot holes?
I can only honestly see super being plot holes to original manga but whatever.
It's your opinion you have your right.
You have your right to be bias too.
I know everybody mostly bias in this power level thread.
I can even see this thread has a lot of bias, honestly
i can even state facts like this.
The best feat of beerus universal destruction can only destroy 1 planet and 1 small asteroid belt. beerus and goku can only harm universe by combining their power.So omega shenron still won at this feat beccause omega shenron can destroy universe and beyond alone and it's stated in very short time

[Khin]

What plot holes? I can only honestly see super being plot holes to original manga but whatever.

Just to list some plotholes or errors if GT and Super will be in the same timeline

1: Kibitoshin still in GT whereas he was already difused long ago.
2: Goku/Vegeta not turning SSGSS.
3: No mention for Beerus/Whis/Champa/Vados whatsoever
4: Freeza not turning to his Gold form when fighting Goku in hell.
5: Freeza not in cocoon in hell.
6: Goku being surprised that Omega can destroy a city whereas his punches long ago shook off the entire universe.
7: Pilaf,Shu and Mai being old as hell whereas he was a kid in Super.

I'm pretty sure there are more but thats all i can remeber,and what are those plotholes about the original manga your talking about?

[GTX]

What plot holes? I can only honestly see super being plot holes to original manga but whatever.

Just to list some plotholes or errors if GT and Super will be in the same timeline

1: Kibitoshin still in GT whereas he was already difused long ago.
2: Goku/Vegeta not turning SSGSS.
3: No mention for Beerus/Whis/Champa/Vados whatsoever
4: Freeza not turning to his Gold form when fighting Goku in hell.
5: Freeza not in cocoon in hell.
6: Goku being surprised that Omega can destroy a city whereas his punches long ago shook off the entire universe.
7: Pilaf,Shu and Mai being old as hell whereas he was a kid in Super.

I'm pretty sure there are more but thats all i can remeber,and what also those plotholes about the original manga your talking about?

1. it's only happened in toyota manga and the manga contradicts a lot with the original manga
2. their base and super saiyan already absorb god power
3. they just doesn't matter
4. in hell there is some new rules and adjustment by the god of hell
5. new rules
6. he felt his ki and not the damage. which episode is this but i'm very sure this answer is enough.
7. he will be old again at the end of super

You mean when goku is hurted by broken glasses. No, The blood in his hand mostly come from his mouth because he is punched by omega shenron and not because he cutted by glasses. can sense android ki in gt because they detect their human ki and not their android one.

[Khin]

1. it's only happened in toyota manga and the manga contradicts a lot with the original manga
2. their base and super saiyan already absorb god power
3. they just doesn't matter
4. in hell there is some new rules and adjustment by the god of hell
5. new rules
6. he felt his ki and not the damage. which episode is this but i'm very sure this answer is enough.
7. he will be old again at the end of super

1: Pretty sure it will in the anime,and what are the things in toyotaro's manga that contradicts the original manga?
2: That will not make sense at all since SSB>SSJ,and AT stated that Goku realized that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are nothing more than a power up variation of SSJ but he still used it in GT.
3: Why would it not matter? I'm pretty sure there will be some major things that will happen in Universe 6 saga.
4: When was not shown/stated?
5: Same as #4
6: Cant remeber what episode it was,but i read this debate somewhere in the All purose VS thread.
7: GT happens around 5 years after EOZ or 10 years after BOG,Unless the wish is temporary or they wish back again to return to normal,that seems impossible.

[GTX]

1. it's only happened in toyota manga and the manga contradicts a lot with the original manga
2. their base and super saiyan already absorb god power
3. they just doesn't matter
4. in hell there is some new rules and adjustment by the god of hell
5. new rules
6. he felt his ki and not the damage. which episode is this but i'm very sure this answer is enough.
7. he will be old again at the end of super

1: Pretty sure it will in the anime,and what are the things in toyotaro's manga that contradicts the original manga?
2: That will not make sense at all since SSB>SSJ,and AT stated that Goku realized that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are nothing more than a power up variation of SSJ but he still used it in GT.
3: Why would it not matter? I'm pretty sure there will be some major things that will happen in Universe 6 saga.
4: When was not shown/stated?
5: Same as #4
6: Cant remeber what episode it was,but i read this debate somewhere in the All purose VS thread.
7: GT happens around 5 years after EOZ or 10 years after BOG,Unless the wish is temporary or they wish back again to return to normal,that seems impossible.

1. The anime already passed that scenes
2. goku did turn super saiyan against beerus after absorb so it's matter
3. they die and already surpassed by goku and co
4. yes off screen
5. yes off screen actually in gt there is punishment in hell but the harsh punishment seems not eternal torture and imprisonment and but you do have some limit. After the limit the punishment seems can be light and/or different.
7. yup another wish because the wish did make them suffer because they become harder to get the job and to get the job done. So another redo wish is possible

[Khin]

The anime already pass that scenes
2. goku did turn super saiyan against beerus after absorb
3. they die and already surpassed by goku and co
4. yes off screen
5. yes off screen actually in gt there is punishment in hell but the harsh punishment seems not eternal torture and imprisonment and but you do have some limit. After the limit the punishment seems can be light or different.
7. yup another wish because the wish did make them suffer because they become harder to get the job and to get the job done. So another redo wish is possible

1: What? Care to elaborate it please?
2: Thats because he dont know how to use SSB at that time.
3: Still will not make sense,Base Rild matched Base Goku,So Base Rild>Beerus?
4: What episode was this stated?
5: Same as #4

[GTX]

The anime already pass that scenes
2. goku did turn super saiyan against beerus after absorb
3. they die and already surpassed by goku and co
4. yes off screen
5. yes off screen actually in gt there is punishment in hell but the harsh punishment seems not eternal torture and imprisonment and but you do have some limit. After the limit the punishment seems can be light or different.
7. yup another wish because the wish did make them suffer because they become harder to get the job and to get the job done. So another redo wish is possible

1: What? Care to elaborate it please?
2: Thats because he dont know how to use SSB at that time.
3: Still will not make sense,Base Rild matched Base Goku,So Base Rild>Beerus?
4: What episode was this stated?
5: Same as #4

1.It's happened when the shockwave happened. The anime already beyond that scene.
2. it seems stronger to than base but actually the reason can be anything. 1. the sb is absorbed too. 2. going normal super saiyan is enough and more effecient after some time and so on.
3. beerus ki is special and cannot be sensed and probably even at ssg goku cannot measure it too. he did cannot measure it too in super.
4. it's off screen. so it's not stated or just follow gt rules of how they mostly changing the punishment after sometime. See the android saga hell punishment
5. same as above

[derpgoku]

^^^^^^
Why trunks and goten are still kids,its off screen its not stated .
why pilaf and his gang are still kids,its offf screen its not stated.
Why didn't goku use IT to take krillin to 18 ,its off screen its not stated
thats the kind of logic you are using ,which doesn't make any sens ,if you can't provide the ep or the databook that says GT hell makes you weaker ,then how are we supposed to belive you.

[Bullza]

Looks like we have another Goku strenght feat. Nothing we didn't think he could do before mind you but seeing as Goku never had many lifting strenght feats it's cool to see.

I bet there's people already trying to calculate how much that "watering can" weighs.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, assuming that Vegeta really did become a Saiyan beyond God through Whis' ki control training, and not by becoming a Super Saiyan God & absorbing its power, I guess that would make the theory that Vegeta was tapping into SSG dormant powers against Beerus when he got angry even more possible.

[LightBing]

So, assuming that Vegeta really did become a Saiyan beyond God through Whis' ki control training, and not by becoming a Super Saiyan God & absorbing its power, I guess that would make the theory that Vegeta was tapping into SSG dormant powers against Beerus when he got angry even more possible.

That theory is baseless. When it happened Vegeta's ki was felt by everyone - at least in the manga, can't remember in the anime -. Beerus and Whis didn't comment about any God like ki, which they did when Goku turned into a Super Saiyan God. If it was supposed to be inferred that it was SSG power, they would give us a clue or a statement from a character.

Instead all we have to work is this:

Spoiler:

Minute: 3
Episode title: "Vegeta's Furious Mutation"
Significance: The key word here is 突然変異/totsu-zen hen'i, literally meaning a "sudden change", but in practice the Japanese word for a mutation. It's how Ginyu describes the extreme natural fighting talent which he and the rest of the Ginyu Force were born with, for instance. It's therefore kind of an odd thing to use to describe a Super Saiyan-style transformation, as it's used there. Probably because of this, DT translates the episode title as "Vegeta's Total, Furious Change".

It's more plausible that Vegeta had a mutation, in the mold of the False Super Saiyan from the Lord Slug movie. Maybe Vegeta triggered another Saiyan transformation like SSJ3 but hadn't all the requirements, so it turned into a Super Saiyan Kaioken of some sort.

I just think SSJG isn't connected with the regular Super Saiyan transformations.
But, are there any clues that indicate he tapped into God like power, that I might have missed?

[Hellspawn28]

What plot holes? I can only honestly see super being plot holes to original manga but whatever.

Just to list some plotholes or errors if GT and Super will be in the same timeline

1: Kibitoshin still in GT whereas he was already difused long ago.
2: Goku/Vegeta not turning SSGSS.
3: No mention for Beerus/Whis/Champa/Vados whatsoever
4: Freeza not turning to his Gold form when fighting Goku in hell.
5: Freeza not in cocoon in hell.
6: Goku being surprised that Omega can destroy a city whereas his punches long ago shook off the entire universe.
7: Pilaf,Shu and Mai being old as hell whereas he was a kid in Super.

I'm pretty sure there are more but thats all i can remeber,and what also those plotholes about the original manga your talking about?

1. it's only happened in toyota manga and the manga contradicts a lot with the original manga
2. their base and super saiyan already absorb god power
3. they just doesn't matter
4. in hell there is some new rules and adjustment by the god of hell
5. new rules
6. he felt his ki and not the damage. which episode is this but i'm very sure this answer is enough.
7. he will be old again at the end of super

You mean when goku is hurted by broken glasses. No, The blood in his hand mostly come from his mouth because he is punched by omega shenron and not because he cutted by glasses. can sense android ki in gt because they detect their human ki and not their android one.

2. They turn into normal SSj in GT. I think once they got their god powers, they can only go SSjGSSj now. Goku is strong enough in his base form that he no longer needs to go SSj and beyond. Also Toriyama said that Goku does not need to go SSj2 and SSj3 now. Yet in GT, Goku still goes beyond SSj.

4. What god of hell? Last time I check, there is none.

7. Based on what?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, assuming that Vegeta really did become a Saiyan beyond God through Whis' ki control training, and not by becoming a Super Saiyan God & absorbing its power, I guess that would make the theory that Vegeta was tapping into SSG dormant powers against Beerus when he got angry even more possible.

That theory is baseless. When it happened Vegeta's ki was felt by everyone - at least in the manga, can't remember in the anime -. Beerus and Whis didn't comment about any God like ki, which they did when Goku turned into a Super Saiyan God. If it was supposed to be inferred that it was SSG power, they would give us a clue or a statement from a character.

Instead all we have to work is this:

Spoiler:

Minute: 3
Episode title: "Vegeta's Furious Mutation"
Significance: The key word here is 突然変異/totsu-zen hen'i, literally meaning a "sudden change", but in practice the Japanese word for a mutation. It's how Ginyu describes the extreme natural fighting talent which he and the rest of the Ginyu Force were born with, for instance. It's therefore kind of an odd thing to use to describe a Super Saiyan-style transformation, as it's used there. Probably because of this, DT translates the episode title as "Vegeta's Total, Furious Change".

It's more plausible that Vegeta had a mutation, in the mold of the False Super Saiyan from the Lord Slug movie. Maybe Vegeta triggered another Saiyan transformation like SSJ3 but hadn't all the requirements, so it turned into a Super Saiyan Kaioken of some sort.

I just think SSJG isn't connected with the regular Super Saiyan transformations.
But, are there any clues that indicate he tapped into God like power, that I might have missed?

It's not entirely baseless. SSG Goku was at 60% Beerus' level, and forced Beerus to use 70% of his power in order to overpower him, while Enraged Vegeta forced Beerus to use 10% of his power. The gap between 10% Beerus & Enraged Vegeta seems to be wider than it is for 70% Beerus & SSG Goku, but it shouldn't be enormous, since Beerus was forced to use that much power. This would make Enraged Vegeta much stronger than Ultimate Gohan, but he can't have more dormant powers than Gohan, so the dormant powers he tapped should be special & not normal dormant powers, and SSG dormant powers would fit in that category.

The fact that his ki could be sensed doesn't mean anything, SS Goku's ki could also be sensed after he kept SSG's power.

And Super Saiyan is connected to Super Saiyan God, since it was triggered automatically during the ritual for everyone (even for Videl), and after SSG ended, Goku went back to regular Super Saiyan.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about exclusively for Super, and not about Toriyama's BoG & FnF, so these may not apply to the movies.

[dbzfan7]

So, assuming that Vegeta really did become a Saiyan beyond God through Whis' ki control training, and not by becoming a Super Saiyan God & absorbing its power, I guess that would make the theory that Vegeta was tapping into SSG dormant powers against Beerus when he got angry even more possible.

That theory is baseless. When it happened Vegeta's ki was felt by everyone - at least in the manga, can't remember in the anime -. Beerus and Whis didn't comment about any God like ki, which they did when Goku turned into a Super Saiyan God. If it was supposed to be inferred that it was SSG power, they would give us a clue or a statement from a character.

Instead all we have to work is this:

Spoiler:

Minute: 3
Episode title: "Vegeta's Furious Mutation"
Significance: The key word here is 突然変異/totsu-zen hen'i, literally meaning a "sudden change", but in practice the Japanese word for a mutation. It's how Ginyu describes the extreme natural fighting talent which he and the rest of the Ginyu Force were born with, for instance. It's therefore kind of an odd thing to use to describe a Super Saiyan-style transformation, as it's used there. Probably because of this, DT translates the episode title as "Vegeta's Total, Furious Change".

It's more plausible that Vegeta had a mutation, in the mold of the False Super Saiyan from the Lord Slug movie. Maybe Vegeta triggered another Saiyan transformation like SSJ3 but hadn't all the requirements, so it turned into a Super Saiyan Kaioken of some sort.

I just think SSJG isn't connected with the regular Super Saiyan transformations.
But, are there any clues that indicate he tapped into God like power, that I might have missed?

Agreed. It's personal fanon to me til they decide to talk about it more...which I don't think they will.

[Bullza]

It's a weak theory and I'd hope there was more to it than that.

Previously we thought that Super Saiyan Blue was simply the result of Goku turning Super Saiyan after he had absorbed the powers of SSJG and the question of why he still turned Blonde in Battle of Gods was answered with "I dunno I guess he just hadn't fully absorbed it".

But now it appears like there's going to be more to it than that so we'll see soon enough.

Vegeta spent six months training with Whis while Goku was just farming so that could be one reason why the gap between them may have shrinked considerably despite Vegeta not becoming a God.

[GTX]

2. They turn into normal SSj in GT. I think once they got their god powers, they can only go SSjGSSj now. Goku is strong enough in his base form that he no longer needs to go SSj and beyond. Also Toriyama said that Goku does not need to go SSj2 and SSj3 now. Yet in GT, Goku still goes beyond SSj.

4. What god of hell? Last time I check, there is none.

7. Based on what?

2. no goku was still turning normal ssj when fighting beerus after losing his ssg.
4. the enma,he the one that sent Piccolo to hell because he was destroying heaven.. you know in GT you can switch betwen heaven or hell. Piccolo got sent to hell because he does bad thing in heaven. the rock lady that put stone. she seems giving limited time punishment. You can she, she is left alone when there is no punishable people and freeza and cell seemed had felt the punishment before that's why they're afraid with the canon. It's also by the fact nobody can kill people/ creature in hell so all the punishment mostly has limited time and can change by the course of time. Though even without this reasoning any random reasons can, at off screen
7. They need their body to get the job done or just to get job ( money). Or any random thing or even accident