Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

On the topic of Super Saiyan Rage, maybe unlocking it requires you to completely master Vegeta's SSJ2 mutation by having enough of them. Trunks certainly had the time & circumstances to make that happen.

[DBZ Macky]

On the topic of Super Saiyan Rage, maybe unlocking it requires you to completely master Vegeta's SSJ2 mutation by having enough of them. Trunks certainly had the time & circumstances to make that happen.

I actually like this theory. Trunks was able to keep up with Black and Zamasu even before he became a SS Rage.

In the Manga, we have SS2 Trunks being about as strong as SS3 Goku too.

I think SS3 is actually an incorrect transformation, kind of like SS Grade III. And that progressing SS1/2 would actually net more power, as shown by Trunks and Vegeta.

[Bullza]

I'd be surprised if we ever get an explanation for it. The best chance would be if Trunks also got the form in the manga but I highly doubt it.

In the anime they did have Trunks turn into a Ultra Super Saiyan 2 when he sparred with Vegeta which may have been foreshadowing the Super Saiyan Rage form. There's nothing like that in the manga though.

It was a pretty big plot point. If it isn't in the manga, how do you think Toyotaro will handle trunks without demoting him to a background character in his own arc?

I think they'll probably just have him fight Zamasu separately. Zamasu doesn't seem as strong as he does in the anime, the same is true for Trunks so while Goku and Vegeta are off fighting Black then Trunks will be fighting Zamasu.

It'd make more sense than what was done in the anime where they all fought each other but I'd imagine It'd be much more boring at the same time.

[Bullza]

It just occurred to me but knowing now that Super Saiyan Rose is surely the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue then if Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku....then why isn't Super Saiyan Rose Black over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Never mind 400 times, he doesn't even seem like 4 times stronger. I don't know how there can be such an enormous difference between their Base forms and even in the manga they're regular Super Saiyan forms but the God form doesn't have a drastic amount in it.

I don't know how that's supposed to work. In the manga Blacks just supposed to be more powerful than Goku because he stole Goku's body from further in the future than the current Goku. That doesn't work for the anime though.

[Doctor.]

It just occurred to me but knowing now that Super Saiyan Rose is surely the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue then if Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku....then why isn't Super Saiyan Rose Black over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Never mind 400 times, he doesn't even seem like 4 times stronger. I don't know how there can be such an enormous difference between their Base forms and even in the manga they're regular Super Saiyan forms but the God form doesn't have a drastic amount in it.

I don't know how that's supposed to work. In the manga Blacks just supposed to be more powerful than Goku because he stole Goku's body from further in the future than the current Goku. That doesn't work for the anime though.

Super Saiyan Rosé is the Super Saiyan equivalent of Black in the anime, they said this multiple times. Never once did they ever say it was the Super Saiyan Blue equivalent.

[Marlowe89]

Super Saiyan Rosé is the Super Saiyan equivalent of Black in the anime, they said this multiple times. Never once did they ever say it was the Super Saiyan Blue equivalent.

I don't feel like that actually resolves the issue though, since in all technicality Super Saiyan Blue is also nothing more than an equivalent of Super Saiyan. What would really resolve this whole dispute is just knowing whether Black utilized God ki while using that form, an answer the anime (unsurprisingly) never provides.

That said, considering the translation of Toriyama's comments on his Super Saiyan Rose concept art, I feel inclined to say that there was intended to be a difference between SSR and SS in all of Super's mediums.

[HeroR]

Super Saiyan Rosé is the Super Saiyan equivalent of Black in the anime, they said this multiple times. Never once did they ever say it was the Super Saiyan Blue equivalent.

I don't feel like that actually resolves the issue though, since in all technicality Super Saiyan Blue is also nothing more than an equivalent of Super Saiyan. What would really resolve this whole dispute is just knowing whether Black utilized God ki while using that form, an answer the anime (unsurprisingly) never provides.

That said, considering the translation of Toriyama's comments on his Super Saiyan Rose concept art, I feel inclined to say that there was intended to be a difference between SSR and SS in all of Super's mediums.

I am incline to agree. It's in Toriyama's notes that Black can go Super Saiyan, which isn't Super Saiyan Rose. The anime simply didn't used it. Why, we can only theorize.

[Saturnine]

Leave it to Toyotaro to make things complicated again. Giving Black regular SSj alongside Rosé is gonna raise more questions than solve.

As for SSj Rage, my hypothesis as to how it's attained:
- you need to be a SSj2 and capable of having a steady power output larger than 2x, like Gohan against Cell or "Furious Mutation" Vegeta
- you need to spend enough time in the presence of a SSj God or SSj Blue
- triggered by extreme rage due to helplessness, disappointment or resentment

It just occurred to me but knowing now that Super Saiyan Rose is surely the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue then if Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku....then why isn't Super Saiyan Rose Black over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Never mind 400 times, he doesn't even seem like 4 times stronger. I don't know how there can be such an enormous difference between their Base forms and even in the manga they're regular Super Saiyan forms but the God form doesn't have a drastic amount in it.

I don't know how that's supposed to work. In the manga Blacks just supposed to be more powerful than Goku because he stole Goku's body from further in the future than the current Goku. That doesn't work for the anime though.

Yeah, that creates a problem. IMO the only way a 50x multiplier for SSj can be kept by this point in the story is to assume that the users' bases are really weak. Personally I was always convinced that the SSj multiplier decreased as time went on and the guys became stronger, and by the Buu saga it was all the way down to 5x. Still, due to the seemingly vast gap between the God realm of power and whatever came previously, 50x SSj could very well work. But only assuming the base isn't as strong as SSj God. In Toyotaro's manga it clearly isn't, and SSj Blue is portrayed as being like 8-10x SSj God (SSj God being stronger than 10% SSj Blue).

So long story short: people being sticklers and clinging to 50x for SSj under all circumstances can be troublesome sometimes. On the other hand, the writers should put more effort into powerlevel consistency.

[TheMikado]

Leave it to Toyotaro to make things complicated again. Giving Black regular SSj alongside Rosé is gonna raise more questions than solve.

As for SSj Rage, my hypothesis as to how it's attained:
- you need to be a SSj2 and capable of having a steady power output larger than 2x, like Gohan against Cell or "Furious Mutation" Vegeta
- you need to spend enough time in the presence of a SSj God or SSj Blue
- triggered by extreme rage due to helplessness, disappointment or resentment

It just occurred to me but knowing now that Super Saiyan Rose is surely the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue then if Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku....then why isn't Super Saiyan Rose Black over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Never mind 400 times, he doesn't even seem like 4 times stronger. I don't know how there can be such an enormous difference between their Base forms and even in the manga they're regular Super Saiyan forms but the God form doesn't have a drastic amount in it.

I don't know how that's supposed to work. In the manga Blacks just supposed to be more powerful than Goku because he stole Goku's body from further in the future than the current Goku. That doesn't work for the anime though.

Yeah, that creates a problem. IMO the only way a 50x multiplier for SSj can be kept by this point in the story is to assume that the users' bases are really weak. Personally I was always convinced that the SSj multiplier decreased as time went on and the guys became stronger, and by the Buu saga it was all the way down to 5x. Still, due to the seemingly vast gap between the God realm of power and whatever came previously, 50x SSj could very well work. But only assuming the base isn't as strong as SSj God. In Toyotaro's manga it clearly isn't, and SSj Blue is portrayed as being like 8-10x SSj God (SSj God being stronger than 10% SSj Blue).

So long story short: people being sticklers and clinging to 50x for SSj under all circumstances can be troublesome sometimes. On the other hand, the writers should put more effort into powerlevel consistency.

I hope you know Toriyama is the one who gave Black regular SSJ not Toyotaro..............

It's amazing that people want to fault the guy for following the creators actual notes on the subject...

Anyway back to what Bullza said, this is why that SSJ equal to Hit, equal to 10% SSB never made sense to me and why the dramatic power increases also didn't make any sense in the Zamasu arc. Like Black shouldn't be able to be kicking Trunks butt in base, Trunks gets beat by SSJ3 but somehow isn't finger flicked by SSB equivalent Black after constantly getting his skull caved in...
It's whatever, like I said both are taking dramatically different approaches to resolve a plot and story that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense and is horribly written.

[TheMikado]

It just occurred to me but knowing now that Super Saiyan Rose is surely the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue then if Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku....then why isn't Super Saiyan Rose Black over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Never mind 400 times, he doesn't even seem like 4 times stronger. I don't know how there can be such an enormous difference between their Base forms and even in the manga they're regular Super Saiyan forms but the God form doesn't have a drastic amount in it.

I don't know how that's supposed to work. In the manga Blacks just supposed to be more powerful than Goku because he stole Goku's body from further in the future than the current Goku. That doesn't work for the anime though.

Super Saiyan Rosé is the Super Saiyan equivalent of Black in the anime, they said this multiple times. Never once did they ever say it was the Super Saiyan Blue equivalent.

Not true see Toriyamas notes. SSJ is the equivalent of SSJ for Black.

[Saturnine]

Well, thing is, in the anime Black's portrayed as a "Saiyan beyond God lite" in terms of power. He's about as strong as SSj3 Goku in Base already. In the manga, on the other hand, he's weaker than SSj2 Vegeta, while himself using SSj. That clearly suggests that in the manga, Black's base (pre-Zenkai at least) was meant by Toyotaro to only rival Goku and Vegeta's own.

Kind of like a whole new two-base theory in and of itself

[TheMikado]

Well, thing is, in the anime Black's portrayed as a "Saiyan beyond God lite" in terms of power. He's about as strong as SSj3 Goku in Base already. In the manga, on the other hand, he's weaker than SSj2 Vegeta, while himself using SSj. That clearly suggests that in the manga, Black's base (pre-Zenkai at least) was meant by Toyotaro to only rival Goku and Vegeta's own.

Kind of like a whole new two-base theory in and of itself

Except that it can't because we know Trunks SSJ2 is near Gokus SSJ3 levels. Meaning SSJ2 Trunks should have been wiping the floor with base Black. Like I said it sounds like there are a bunch of scenarios in the outline that shouldn't actually be able t happen based on power levels and Toriyama left it up to Toei and Toyotaro to figure out how to make these nonsensical scenarios work.

[Hugo Boss]

It just occurred to me but knowing now that Super Saiyan Rose is surely the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue then if Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku....then why isn't Super Saiyan Rose Black over 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

Never mind 400 times, he doesn't even seem like 4 times stronger. I don't know how there can be such an enormous difference between their Base forms and even in the manga they're regular Super Saiyan forms but the God form doesn't have a drastic amount in it.

I don't know how that's supposed to work. In the manga Blacks just supposed to be more powerful than Goku because he stole Goku's body from further in the future than the current Goku. That doesn't work for the anime though.

As suggested by Trunks, Black has been improving his Super Saiyan form, so it could mean that.. 1) he can't use his Super Saiyan power to its fullest and is getting used to it little by little or.. 2) since his Super Saiyan form gets stronger, his normal form gets stronger too. In this case (2), the common knowledge is that Super Saiyan multiplies a Saiyan's power by 50. But in the first case, his Super Saiyan power doesn't depend on his normal form power.

Another hypothesis that I'm sticking with is that Zamasu adds his own power to Goku's forms and along with them he gets stronger by fighting, which justifies Goku Black normal form being stronger than SS3 Goku but SS2 Black being a bit weaker than SS2 Vegeta.

[HeroR]

Well, thing is, in the anime Black's portrayed as a "Saiyan beyond God lite" in terms of power. He's about as strong as SSj3 Goku in Base already. In the manga, on the other hand, he's weaker than SSj2 Vegeta, while himself using SSj. That clearly suggests that in the manga, Black's base (pre-Zenkai at least) was meant by Toyotaro to only rival Goku and Vegeta's own.

Kind of like a whole new two-base theory in and of itself

Even in the manga, Black's base form was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks who was even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

[Bullza]

It's getting more confusing the further we go, I'm not liking how the anime and manga are so different now.

At least there's an explanation in the manga as to why Black was so strong, he's just supposed to be Goku from further in the future. How Goku got over 400 times stronger like that is anyones guess. I'd have said that maybe because that future Goku had absorbed the power of God but then he should be stronger... maybe.

Is Black supposed to be the equivalent of Saiyan Beyond God Goku? Though if he was he's still much weaker than Base Goku from the anime.

In the anime there's not much an explanation whatsoever he stole Goku's body from just one year on and I suppose he grew so powerful from his unexplained zenkai boosts. He supposedly fought Trunks for over a year and didnt Trunks say he kept getting stronger?

[HeroR]

It's getting more confusing the further we go, I'm not liking how the anime and manga are so different now.

At least there's an explanation in the manga as to why Black was so strong, he's just supposed to be Goku from further in the future. How Goku got over 400 times stronger like that is anyones guess. I'd have said that maybe because that future Goku had absorbed the power of God but then he should be stronger... maybe.

Is Black supposed to be the equivalent of Saiyan Beyond God Goku? Though if he was he's still much weaker than Base Goku from the anime.

In the anime there's not much an explanation whatsoever he stole Goku's body from just one year on and I suppose he grew so powerful from his unexplained zenkai boosts. He supposedly fought Trunks for over a year and didnt Trunks say he kept getting stronger?

Even in the anime, Zamasu got Goku's body from later in the timeline. Over a year, after Zen'o's tournament to boot if the events of the timelines are the same outside of the second Zen'o. Also in the anime, we know Goku got at least ten times stronger in a year and Zamasu had control over Goku's body for several years before coming to Earth. So him getting that strong isn't that unbelievable.

Trunks only said he got stronger. We don't know by how much, but Trunks was never match for him even as a Super Saiyan 2.

I have no problem with the anime and manga being different. They're just two different interpretations of the same event. Which one you put more stock in is a personal preference.

[perucho1990]

Viz scans say SSJ2 Trunks was = SSJ3 Goku, MS said they were nearly equal.

SSJ2 Vegeta> SSJ Black >Base Black >SSJ3Goku=SSJ2 Trunks

The fact SSJ2 Vegeta is like 100 stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the manga is very, very dumb, its even more bs than Black getting constant zenkais in the anime.

[Legion]

SSJ2 Vegeta can be that Rageta in BOG arc? he was more stronger than Goku ssj3.

[Lord Beerus]

The fact SSJ2 Vegeta is like 100 stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the manga is very, very dumb, its even more bs than Black getting constant zenkais in the anime.

Black does not get constant Zenkai's in the anime. He just get stronger the more he fights. Which may I remind you, is a characteristic that Toriyama confirmed that Saiyans have. It's just a plot device, much like Zenkai's, which is a power up you only get when you instantly recover for a near death experience, something which Black never goes through in the anime, that's only ever applied in the story for the sake of convenience.

[TheMikado]

Another hypothesis that I'm sticking with is that Zamasu adds his own power to Goku's forms and along with them he gets stronger by fighting, which justifies Goku Black normal form being stronger than SS3 Goku but SS2 Black being a bit weaker than SS2 Vegeta.

I actually really like that theory and I'm going to roll with that. This also how I think Baby's possession technique works in GT so that makes perfect sense to me.

Speaking of GT, just realized in the manga that Black has a future Gokus body from further in the future and the only times I know of Gokus base being SSJ3 tier are in EOZ and GT.