Things that grind your gears

[Bansho64]

Your right except for the fact that Freeza outright confirmed that he nearly died from the genkai dama. You can't wiggle around that statement, he also then got the absolute shit beaten out of him by Super Saiyan Goku before the battle even began, and Freeza's stamina was disappearing by the minute as well. And what Goku outright stated to Freeza absolutely contradicts the 120 million line a thousand fold

And? So what if he was gonna die. You've already mentioned the GenkiDama. I think you're conveniently forgetting that Goku was getting dealt a ton damage from Freeza. And what Goku said doesn't contradict anything. Just because he didn't mention strength, it doesn't mean that Freeza wasn't weaker. You're acting like he said, "Alright, you were as strong as me, but you need fix your stamina and your moves". He didn't say that at all. Goku was clearly stronger, as shown when he was beating the car out of Freeza.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, Goku barely addressed anything about "polishing his moves". All he said was that Freeza was getting tired quickly. He was already beating him.

[Gog]

And? So what if he was gonna die. You've already mentioned the GenkiDama. I think you're conveniently forgetting that Goku was getting dealt a ton damage from Freeza. And what Goku said doesn't contradict anything. Just because he didn't mention strength, it doesn't mean that Freeza wasn't weaker. You're acting like he said, "Alright, you were as strong as me, but you need fix your stamina and your moves". He didn't say that at all. Goku was clearly stronger, as shown when he was beating the car out of Freeza.

I'm mentioning the Genki Dama, because it is an important fact that we can't forget in this discussion. I know that full well, it's just that Freeza took more damage than Goku did. and what Goku says contradicts your entire point. Goku didn't state, "go polish your moves, and your stamina drain, also get stronger" he didn't state that at all, in fact he would have told Freeza that. You must be forgetting the stamina drain. and I've actually read the battle, Goku only started dominating the battle, until after Porunga showed up, Freeza was even capable of outrunning Goku, a feat that would be impossible if Goku had a 25% difference too him. Before that they were both fighting near equally.

[DefinitiveDubs]

It annoys me how Toriyama got lazy with how time passes in Z.

The Saiyan saga is the shortest and takes a year to finish, with several scenes involving Gohan at night, and the fight with Vegeta ends at sunset. The Namek/Frieza sagas last about a week in total, but Namek has no day/night cycle. The Android/Cell sagas take several years for the androids to arrive, plus 10 days before the Cell Games, but it's all during the day.

But then we get to the Buu saga. From the tournament all the way to Kid Buu blowing up the world, all of that is somehow supposed to fit into a single day, and it's ALWAYS daytime. Like, what the hell.

[Lunaar]

...well, there's certainly not any evidence pointing to them needing a mate(s? oh god) to reproduce, but there's nothing specifically stating they're akin to the Namekians in their methods, either.

Except there is a lot of evidence that we can discern from the series. In fact the popular idea that Freeza's forms suppresses his power absolutely hinge's on the concept of them not being asexual.

Fantastic, this is news to me. What evidence am I missing? I've been doing my best to provide sources, so I'm just curious.

What we do know is that every Frost Demon/Freeza Race/Acrosian we've met thus far has been referred to with a "he" pronoun, just like Namekians... and in every game you're able to select their race as a custom character build, there are no gender options to select. Just like Namekians. Dragon Ball Online, from my understanding, was pretty close to Toriyama's cuff, so I doubt there's error in that call - but who knows. New material could upend everything for all we know.

And they arent going to do something that Akira Toriyama confirmed, heck saiyans could go god form, yet I can't actually see them. In fact, using from what we've seen of Toriyama's designs, I'm baffled the whole entire conception of them being asexual could actually exist in the first place. As in all of his designs for the species are so radically different from each other, that there is absolutley no chance that they can ever be asexual.

They're radically different in the same way humans are "radically" different. They share racial traits and signature features, but are otherwise unique and individual. Piccolo Daimao even showed us that under strange circumstances, he could cough up eggs that hatched wildly different monsters than any Namekian. We should acknowledge that Toriyama most likely had not thought far ahead enough for the demon king to actually be alien with their own planet and culture, but it still doesn't change the fact that it happened (perhaps his eggs were a result of him being "pure evil"?). So that bit of headcanon doesn't necessarily fit what we've seen.

Also they never actually showed up in Dragon ball online, don't know where you got that one from

I totally brain-farted, that's all me. I can however, point to concept art for Dragon Ball Heroes, drawn by Toriyama:

While the race was not playable in Dragon Ball Online, their Bio Suits were available to equip. Between that and remembering this piece of artwork, my wires crossed somewhere. Regardless, Xenoverse's inclusion of a genderless "Freeza race" is worth mentioning.

[rereboy]

Your right except for the fact that Freeza outright confirmed that he nearly died from the genkai dama. You can't wiggle around that statement, he also then got the absolute shit beaten out of him by Super Saiyan Goku before the battle even began, and Freeza's stamina was disappearing by the minute as well. And what Goku outright stated to Freeza absolutely contradicts the 120 million line a thousand fold

Before the SSJ boost, Goku could barely move, Piccolo had to save him from drowning. Frezza could move perfectly well. It is clear that Goku was in worse shape.

It does, as in dragon ball terms a ten percent increase in strength enables you to stomp your opponent.

There's no real consistency in Dragon Ball about those kind of margins.

In fact the popular idea that Freeza's forms suppresses his power absolutely hinge's on the concept of them not being asexual.

Huh...? Why? What does one thing have to do with another?

[Bansho64]

I'm mentioning the Genki Dama, because it is an important fact that we can't forget in this discussion. I know that full well, it's just that Freeza took more damage than Goku did.

And I, like I've said before, disagree. Freeza was a lot stronger and was throttling literally Goku. It seemed to me like Freeza did a lot more damage to Goku with his limbs than Goku did to him with the GenkiDama and the x20 KameHameHa. He even looks more beaten up.
Edit: Like rereboy pointed out perfectly above.

and what Goku says contradicts your entire point. Goku didn't state, "go polish your moves, and your stamina drain, also get stronger" he didn't state that at all, in fact he would have told Freeza that. You must be forgetting the stamina drain.

I just said this. And I never once forgot the stamina drain.

and I've actually read the battle, Goku only started dominating the battle, until after Porunga showed up, Freeza was even capable of outrunning Goku, a feat that would be impossible if Goku had a 25% difference too him. Before that they were both fighting near equally.

Freeza was already almost right infront of Porunga when Goku saw what he was doing and he still made it there in a much shorter time, if the panels are anything to go off of. Also, Freeza seemed to take much more damage from Goku's hits than Goku took from his. I'd hardly classify that as equal.

[Lunaar]

It does, as in dragon ball terms a ten percent increase in strength enables you to stomp your opponent.

There's no real consistency in Dragon Ball about those kind of margins.

You said it. That's it. That's every conversation about power levels/"strengths" ever, summed up in one sentence. Strength comparisons grind everybody's gears for many, many reasons. It's 2017 and we're still talking about Freeza's power levels. God. Damn it.

Even if they were accurate, wouldn't that kind of suck any tension out of a fight? Knowing that if you smack two numbers together, one is clearly bigger than the other? Wait, don't answer that. I don't want this thread to succumb to that.

[ekrolo2]

Even if they were accurate, wouldn't that kind of suck any tension out of a fight? Knowing that if you smack two numbers together, one is clearly bigger than the other? Wait, don't answer that. I don't want this thread to succumb to that.

That's basically how the entire Saiyan and half of Namek works though. For all his talk of power levels not mattering, Toriyama does a shit job actually applying that principle into practice.

[Bansho64]

You said it. That's it. That's every conversation about power levels/"strengths" ever, summed up in one sentence. Strength comparisons grind everybody's gears for many, many reasons. It's 2017 and we're still talking about Freeza's power levels. God. Damn it.

Even if they were accurate, wouldn't that kind of suck any tension out of a fight? Knowing that if you smack two numbers together, one is clearly bigger than the other? Wait, don't answer that. I don't want this thread to succumb to that.

I mean, it's never really bothered me. I've found it fun. I've gotten a lot of good times out of them and I think that they're pretty cool.

I mean, when I was in 7th grade about 3 years back, I really looked forward watch Dragon Ball and looking up all the cool battle powers. Watching Qaaman's Land's videos about them and coming here later on this site to learn that there were actual guidebooks discussing these things? I had so much fun. I don't know, I guess it's just me, but I loved it

[Lunaar]

That's basically how the entire Saiyan and half of Namek works though. For all his talk of power levels not mattering, Toriyama does a shit job actually applying that principle into practice.

I honestly thought the entire idea behind power levels was watching all the villains tout this concept of "numbers = worth", until the Earthlings (and eventually Vegeta) showed up to shove it all back down their throats. Freeza's line in RoF got a huge laugh from me because it was so ridiculous that it had to be a joke. He was still so close-minded after all this time and really, why wouldn't he be? ...listening to all the fans in theater immediately turn to their friends and whisper "aw, wait... that's so low? What is he talking about? I thought he was as strong as..." Music to my hear holes. ...the concept does last for a huge part of Z, so I can see why so many people latched onto the idea of it all being significant somehow. Toriyama probably could have gotten to the point a lot sooner and a lot more direct.

I mean, it's never really bothered me. I've found it fun. I've gotten a lot of good times out of them and I think that they're pretty cool.

I mean, when I was in 7th grade about 3 years back, I really looked forward watch Dragon Ball and looking up all the cool battle powers. Watching Qaaman's Land's videos about them and coming here later on this site to learn that there were actual guidebooks discussing these things? I had so much fun. I don't know, I guess it's just me, but I loved it

Heya, I can relate to that. If it's fun and part of the charm for the series, by all means. I'd be a fool to admit I didn't do the same as a kid, but it certainly wasn't why I watched the show.

I used to be obsessed with censorship and changes made between the original and Toonami broadcasts - catching the tail end of the Ginyu arc in Japanese as a seven year old opened my eyes to a world that FUNimation was trying to hide from me! How dare they! I was a two weebs worth of a nerd and guess what! No (normal) grade school kid likes their show being ruined by another nerdy kid that claims to know about Kid Boo's power level or Super Saiyan 5 Gogeta. I just changed over the years. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about censorship anymore, so that obsession disappeared.

[ekrolo2]

That's basically how the entire Saiyan and half of Namek works though. For all his talk of power levels not mattering, Toriyama does a shit job actually applying that principle into practice.

I honestly thought the entire idea behind power levels was watching the villains all tout this concept of "numbers = worth", until the Earthlings (and Vegeta) showed up to shove it all back down their throats. Freeza's line in RoF got a huge laugh from me because it was so ridiculous that it had to be a joke. He was still so close-minded after all this time and really, why wouldn't he be? ...listening to all the fans in theater immediately turn to their friends and whisper "aw, wait... that's so low? What is he talking about? I thought he was as strong as..." Music to my hear holes. ...the concept does last for a huge part of Z, so I can see why so many people latched onto the idea of it all being significant somehow. Toriyama probably could have gotten to the point a lot sooner and a lot more direct.

It doesn't really work like that, sure, Toriyama says he wanted the power levels to not matter and to show how stupid the villains are for using them as a measure of worth but that's precisely how they work. With a few exceptions like the Kikoho, Kienzan and Solar Flare, if your vaguely designated number is lower than the other guys, he WILL stomp you into the dirt.

Look at Goku vs Vegeta. The latter has a PL of 18,000 while the former a default one of slightly over 8,000 and 16,000 with KKX2 and Vegeta still kicks his ass, forcing Goku to raise his power to a higher number so he can beat Vegeta. If Toriyama REALLY wanted to mock the idea of PLs determining a characters worth, he should've had more lower tier grunts pose a threat to the big guns. Not using certain rule breaking moves like the Kienzan or Kikoho, I'm talking a dude of a PL of 20,000 taking on a guy with half a million and winning ,that would be a good fuck you to the bad guys who measure a person's worth by some vague numerical designation.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I honestly thought the entire idea behind power levels was watching all the villains tout this concept of "numbers = worth", until the Earthlings (and eventually Vegeta) showed up to shove it all back down their throats.

That's pretty obviously why they existed, but the fans won't let that be it. What would they do if they weren't able to nail it to the forehead of every last aspect of fandom?

[Gog]

Fantastic, this is news to me. What evidence am I missing? I've been doing my best to provide sources, so I'm just curious.

Well like all things this stems back from King cold and his performance on earth, and how he never made any effort to transform, what so ever. This has caused another popular theory to form on Kanzenshuu, that King Cold is in his finial form. However that cannot simply work as not only did Freeza outright confirm that the finial form was his true form (regardless what I believe of that), so the only way that could possibly work, is that Freeza isn't asexual and the mutation that King Cold passed on to him mutated even further on due to his wife. Even though Akira Toriyama never once stated that it mutated even further.

They're radically different in the same way humans are "radically" different. They share racial traits and signature features, but are otherwise unique and individual. Piccolo Daimao even showed us that under strange circumstances, he could cough up eggs that hatched wildly different monsters than any Namekian. We should acknowledge that Toriyama most likely had not thought far ahead enough for the demon king to actually be alien with their own planet and culture, but it still doesn't change the fact that it happened (perhaps his eggs were a result of him being "pure evil"?). So that bit of headcanon doesn't necessarily fit what we've seen.

They are far more different than what you make them out to be, in fact an asexual creature can only have minor difference's but the diffidence between Freeza, and Coola is such a massive leap. In fact even the arcosian's from dragon ball hero's look absolutely nothing alike. Fucking hell, they show more genetic diversity than the saiyans themselves, yet are the saiyans asexual? You mean how he was capable of creating his own demon's to serve his purpose? And how that's a trait only specially shown to be one that namekian's possesses? You can't actually use something from a completely wildly different race to show off another race, that's the equivalent of me showing off a sheep and comparing it too a completely different separate organism that evolved on a different planet.

Calling what I'm saying head canon is a complete and utter hypocritical thing to say, especially considering that your saying that they reproduce nearly identically to namekians. Something that was never once stated or implied once in the entire series. Especially considering that bit of head canon doesn't fit in with what we've seen

And to refresh the sheer amount of difference's between them, I'm just going to go right ahead and show you a comparison between the members of the race that we've seen.

Freeza.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Coola.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Chilled.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Dragon Ball Hero's Arcosians.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Frost.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

As you can see the amount of difference's are not slight difference's they range from completely different colors, sizes, horns, feet, gem sizes, gem allocation, gem color, completely different feet, pant's like lower body, and one of them even has a mask. This level of difference cannot, I repeat cannot exist if they were asexually reproducing creatures.

I totally brain-farted, that's all me. I can however, point to concept art for Dragon Ball Heroes, drawn by Toriyama:

While the race was not playable in Dragon Ball Online, their Bio Suits were available to equip. Between that and remembering this piece of artwork, my wires crossed somewhere. Regardless, Xenoverse's inclusion of a genderless "Freeza race" is worth mentioning.

Xenoverse is a non canon video game series, that bares no impact on this argument, as using that means that I can use none canon sources as well. and it's sexist to the arcosian's as well. Also even that artwork of them only further supports my argument

[Lunaar]

That's basically how the entire Saiyan and half of Namek works though. For all his talk of power levels not mattering, Toriyama does a shit job actually applying that principle into practice.

I honestly thought the entire idea behind power levels was watching the villains all tout this concept of "numbers = worth", until the Earthlings (and Vegeta) showed up to shove it all back down their throats. Freeza's line in RoF got a huge laugh from me because it was so ridiculous that it had to be a joke. He was still so close-minded after all this time and really, why wouldn't he be? ...listening to all the fans in theater immediately turn to their friends and whisper "aw, wait... that's so low? What is he talking about? I thought he was as strong as..." Music to my hear holes. ...the concept does last for a huge part of Z, so I can see why so many people latched onto the idea of it all being significant somehow. Toriyama probably could have gotten to the point a lot sooner and a lot more direct.

It doesn't really work like that, sure, Toriyama says he wanted the power levels to not matter and to show how stupid the villains are for using them as a measure of worth but that's precisely how they work. With a few exceptions like the Kikoho, Kienzan and Solar Flare, if your vaguely designated number is lower than the other guys, he WILL stomp you into the dirt.

Look at Goku vs Vegeta. The latter has a PL of 18,000 while the former a default one of slightly over 8,000 and 16,000 with KKX2 and Vegeta still kicks his ass, forcing Goku to raise his power to a higher number so he can beat Vegeta. If Toriyama REALLY wanted to mock the idea of PLs determining a characters worth, he should've had more lower tier grunts pose a threat to the big guns. Not using certain rule breaking moves like the Kienzan or Kikoho, I'm talking a dude of a PL of 20,000 taking on a guy with half a million and winning ,that would be a good fuck you to the bad guys who measure a person's worth by some vague numerical designation.

I gotta take a deep breath, here. We're not seeing eye to eye. Just for clarification, I'm not trying to dismiss you, nor refute the fact that power levels have some logical basis in how fights turn out (especially in the early parts of Z when the fundamentals of Ki were a very new concept that as far as we know, nobody outside of Goku, Piccolo or Kami could grasp until just before the Saiyans arrived). Your facts are on point. Really.

You mentioned an excellent note that ties into what I'm trying to say: there are rule breaking moves, situations... hell, the entire concept of "scouter goes doot doot, this turtle is worth one level of power" is rough, vague and alien on purpose. If Goku has a power of 180,000 and Ginyu throws a punch at him and he doesn't defend himself, do Ginyu's knuckles just shatter on his face? As we saw with Raditz scanning Piccolo charging his Makkankosappo, his power level raised. Does that mean the attack has a specific value attached? Does every attack give someone a power boost? What's the range of difference between two power levels to change from "stands a chance" to "kicks their ass"?

"Things that grind my gears"? I typically avoid conversations like this on message boards because I hate wrapping my head around this adapted logic. I've read the same conversation online for literally over ten years. Dragon Ball is a show with martial artists bettering themselves and the journeys they have along the way. Situational context can change the outcome of any fight. A dude of a PL of 20,000 taking on a guy with half a million and winning is unlikely, but Goku's body ain't too prone to laser beams. It's a way of interpreting what's happening, not the logic that anybody follows behind the scenes when writing a script.

I've said my peace. It's never my intention to be rude and frankly, I'm in the minority on this. I'm here to add to the conversation, not start a huge debate on who's right or wrong. Thanks for bearing with me.

...and hey, Gog. I see you. Gimme a minute.

[rereboy]

Well like all things this stems back from King cold and his performance on earth, and how he never made any effort to transform, what so ever. This has caused another popular theory to form on Kanzenshuu, that King Cold is in his finial form. However that cannot simply work as not only did Freeza outright confirm that the finial form was his true form (regardless what I believe of that), so the only way that could possibly work, is that Freeza isn't asexual and the mutation that King Cold passed on to him mutated even further on due to his wife. Even though Akira Toriyama never once stated that it mutated even further.

Nameks reproduce asexually and they can breed other Nameks that aren't clones, that have varying characteristics, and that have even different classes (dragon clan and warrior clan), and, furthermore, they can also breed beings that don't even look like Nameks (Tamborine, Cymbal, etc).

There's nothing stopping Freeza's race or Cold from reproducing asexually and being able to to breed beings of the same race that aren't clones, have varying characteristics and even look different. You are taking assumptions and logic from real life that don't really automatically apply to a fictional life form we almost know nothing about.

[Gog]

Nameks reproduce asexually and they can breed other Nameks that aren't clones, that have varying characteristics, and that have even different classes (dragon clan and warrior clan), and, furthermore, they can also breed beings that don't even look like Nameks (Tamborine, Cymbal, etc).

Exactly that is a namekian only thing. And even then we don't know if those things are because of the high amount of evil in him. You litterally cannot apply that same logic to a completely different species. And Toriyama also never once stated, or implied that they are asexual.

There's nothing stopping Freeza's race or Cold from reproducing asexually and being able to to breed beings of the same race that aren't clones, have varying characteristics and even look different. You are taking assumptions and logic from real life that don't really automatically apply to a fictional life form we almost know nothing about.

There absolutely is, and you are literally flying into head canon territory with this kind of logic. The ability to make golems, is a Namekian only ability. No other race has ever shown the actual ability to ever do that. Applying it to the Arcosians is a flawed kind of logic. Saying that I'm making assumptions is a hypocritical thing to state, as you are also assuming that they reproduce near identically to Namekians. Except they do apply to this fictional life form that we know nothing about, as they tick all the boxes on a sexual reproducing species.

[kinisking]

As you can see the amount of difference's are not slight difference's they range from completely different colors, sizes, horns, feet, gem sizes, gem allocation, gem color, completely different feet, pant's like lower body, and one of them even has a mask. This level of difference cannot, I repeat cannot exist if they were asexually reproducing creatures.

This is pretty much the only part of the argument I bothered to read so my bad if it contradicts something you said previously or afterwards. That level of difference can exist if they're asexual. Just look at Piccolo giving birth to all those different creatures.

[rereboy]

Exactly that is a namekian only thing.

In Dragon Ball there is nothing stating that there are no other species like that. Therefore, it's unknown if there are or not.

And even then we don't know if those things are because of the high amount of evil in him. You litterally cannot apply that same logic to a completely different species. And Toriyama also never once stated, or implied that they are asexual.

It was never stated or shown if they are sexual or if they asexual. So, I don't assume either. That's the point. Why do you assume one of them?

There absolutely is, and you are literally flying into head canon territory with this kind of logic. The ability to make golems, is a Namekian only ability. No other race has ever shown the actual ability to ever do that.

Nowhere is it stated that no other race in the universe could do that.

Applying it to the Arcosians is a flawed kind of logic.

Flawed logic is taking something that is unknown (like Freeza's method of reproduction) and assuming something about it as a fact.

Saying that I'm making assumptions is a hypocritical thing to state, as you are also assuming that they reproduce near identically to Namekians.

Stating that how they reproduce is unknown since that is never stated or shown in Dragon Ball, and that, for all we know, they could even reproduce like Nameks or in some other completely different way =/= assuming that they reproduce like Nameks. Pretty big difference, actually.

Except they do apply to this fictional life form that we know nothing about, as they tick all the boxes on a sexual reproducing species.

Nothing is stated or shown about their reproduction. Those "ticks" are just your assumptions.

[MathSSJ]

Even if they were accurate, wouldn't that kind of suck any tension out of a fight? Knowing that if you smack two numbers together, one is clearly bigger than the other? Wait, don't answer that. I don't want this thread to succumb to that.

That's basically how the entire Saiyan and half of Namek works though. For all his talk of power levels not mattering, Toriyama does a shit job actually applying that principle into practice.

The basic "Stronger guy beats weaker guy" works. That's obvious, been the case since before Battle Powers were even a concept. It's the foundation of the damn story and Goku's character.

Everything else around them though? It's an incoherent clusterfuck that makes no sense. There is no rhyme or reason how much is gained, how they are gained or how much the relative gap has to be before you overwhelm an opponent. Why hassle over what's essentially the technological equivalent of the earthling's ability to sense Ki? The aliens measuring it in numbers is an inconsequential fluff that's is mentioned due to that being the only way they perceive Ki.

[Gog]

In Dragon Ball there is nothing stating that there are no other species like that. Therefore, it's unknown if there are or not.

But I don't care about those species, I'm talking about the Arcosians, and besides nothing is stateing that they can. There is proably a race that can do that, I think their called the Majins.

It was never stated or shown if they are sexual or if they asexual. So, I don't assume either. That's the point. Why do you assume one of them?

I'm using what we have seen in the show, to properly support the idea that they aren't asexual. It's not an assumption, it's a theory, which I actually believe.

Nowhere is it stated that no other race in the universe could do that.

Nowhere is it stated that any race in the universe could do that. But the Majins are the only race besides the Namekians with the same abilities.

Flawed logic is taking something that is unknown (like Freeza's method of reproduction) and assuming something about it as a fact.

Flawed logic is taking a completely different way of reproduction from the namekians, which bare no similarities to the arcosians, and assuming that there way of birth is similar. That's also flawed logic.

Stating that how they reproduce is unknown since that is never stated or shown in Dragon Ball, and that, for all we know, they could even reproduce like Nameks or in some other completely different way =/= assuming that they reproduce like Nameks. Pretty big difference, actually.

And? The majin's reproduce similarly to the namekians. But there just isn't anyway that the arcosian's could reproduce in the same way. There just so different in design. Also your assuming more than me here. Because I actually have more evidence backing my assumptions, compared to you and your? Uh? Assumptions

Nothing is stated or shown about their reproduction. Those "ticks" are just your assumptions.

Those ticks are just my assumptions that I am backing up with facts. I'm still waiting for you to provide superior reasons then the ones that you are providing now.

As you can see the amount of difference's are not slight difference's they range from completely different colors, sizes, horns, feet, gem sizes, gem allocation, gem color, completely different feet, pant's like lower body, and one of them even has a mask. This level of difference cannot, I repeat cannot exist if they were asexually reproducing creatures.

This is pretty much the only part of the argument I bothered to read so my bad if it contradicts something you said previously or afterwards. That level of difference can exist if they're asexual. Just look at Piccolo giving birth to all those different creatures.

That's not my only argument, and besides you are comparing to completely different species to one and another. And besides all of that, we don't actually know how King Piccolo was actually capable of creating such different beings to him, in fact it's theorized that he's using magic or some shit. The point is that we don't know what he's doing is even natural