Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Okay, isn't this clear evidence that SSBlue isn't all that strong in the manga? People were dismissing SSJ Goku being in the same league as 10% of SSBlue Vegeta back in the U6 arc, but this is undeniable evidence, right? SSJ2 Black is thrashing SSBlue Vegeta, this proves that SSBlue is probably a 500x multiplier at best,

[DBZ Macky]

Okay, isn't this clear evidence that SSBlue isn't all that strong in the manga? People were dismissing SSJ Goku being in the same league as 10% of SSBlue Vegeta back in the U6 arc, but this is undeniable evidence, right? SSJ2 Black is thrashing SSBlue Vegeta, this proves that SSBlue is probably a 500x multiplier at best,

But that would make Vegetto stronger than SSG and SSB.
Also, is there any chance that the multiplier could be a measly 500x for the Anime as well?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Okay, isn't this clear evidence that SSBlue isn't all that strong in the manga? People were dismissing SSJ Goku being in the same league as 10% of SSBlue Vegeta back in the U6 arc, but this is undeniable evidence, right? SSJ2 Black is thrashing SSBlue Vegeta, this proves that SSBlue is probably a 500x multiplier at best,

But that would make Vegetto stronger than SSG and SSB.
Also, is there any chance that the multiplier could be a measly 500x for the Anime as well?

No, the BoG arc confirms SSGod is above Vegetto and the F Arc reveals that SSBlue is stronger than SSGod. The manga rushes through both of these arcs and skips over a lot of details, so I guess these things aren't present in the manga and therefore there's nothing to imply SSBlue is all that strong.

But in the anime it's definitely at least 1,000x SSJ as Goku says he never imagined this level of power when he went SSGod. Earlier he said that even Vegetto wouldn't be enough against Beerus, so obviously he must have imagined Vegetto's power to come to this conclusion, therefore SSGod > Vegetto, then against Frieza it's revealed that SSBlue is even stronger than SSGod by the narrator and implied by Goku himself.

[DBZ Macky]

Okay, isn't this clear evidence that SSBlue isn't all that strong in the manga? People were dismissing SSJ Goku being in the same league as 10% of SSBlue Vegeta back in the U6 arc, but this is undeniable evidence, right? SSJ2 Black is thrashing SSBlue Vegeta, this proves that SSBlue is probably a 500x multiplier at best,

But that would make Vegetto stronger than SSG and SSB.
Also, is there any chance that the multiplier could be a measly 500x for the Anime as well?

No, the BoG arc confirms SSGod is above Vegetto and the F Arc reveals that SSBlue is stronger than SSGod. The manga rushes through both of these arcs and skips over a lot of details, so I guess these things aren't present in the manga and therefore there's nothing to imply SSBlue is all that strong.

But in the anime it's definitely at least 1,000x SSJ as Goku says he never imagined this level of power when he went SSGod. Earlier he said that even Vegetto wouldn't be enough against Beerus, so obviously he must have imagined Vegetto's power to come to this conclusion, therefore SSGod > Vegetto, then against Frieza it's revealed that SSBlue is even stronger than SSGod by the narrator and implied by Goku himself.

SS Vegetto is stronger than SS3 Goku.
So, it'd be something like this:

Goku- 1
Ss3- 400
Vegetto ss- 400
Ssb- 500
Vegetto Ss2- 800

If Blue is just 500x then Vegetto would be stronger.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But that would make Vegetto stronger than SSG and SSB.
Also, is there any chance that the multiplier could be a measly 500x for the Anime as well?

No, the BoG arc confirms SSGod is above Vegetto and the F Arc reveals that SSBlue is stronger than SSGod. The manga rushes through both of these arcs and skips over a lot of details, so I guess these things aren't present in the manga and therefore there's nothing to imply SSBlue is all that strong.

But in the anime it's definitely at least 1,000x SSJ as Goku says he never imagined this level of power when he went SSGod. Earlier he said that even Vegetto wouldn't be enough against Beerus, so obviously he must have imagined Vegetto's power to come to this conclusion, therefore SSGod > Vegetto, then against Frieza it's revealed that SSBlue is even stronger than SSGod by the narrator and implied by Goku himself.

SS Vegetto is stronger than SS3 Goku.
So, it'd be something like this:

Goku- 1
Ss3- 400
Vegetto ss- 400
Ssb- 500
Vegetto Ss2- 800

If Blue is just 500x then Vegetto would be stronger.

Manga SSBlue isn't stronger than Vegetto, it's different in the anime.
My numbers would go like this:
Goku: 1
SSJ2 100
SSJ3: 400
Vegetto: 100
Super Vegetto: 5,000
SSJ3 Vegetto: 40,000
SSGod: 50,000
SSBlue: 75,000
SSJ3 (Manga): 200
MSSJ2 Trunks (Manga): 200
SSJ2 Mutation Vegeta (Manga): 250
SSBlue (Manga): 500

[DBZ Macky]

No, the BoG arc confirms SSGod is above Vegetto and the F Arc reveals that SSBlue is stronger than SSGod. The manga rushes through both of these arcs and skips over a lot of details, so I guess these things aren't present in the manga and therefore there's nothing to imply SSBlue is all that strong.

But in the anime it's definitely at least 1,000x SSJ as Goku says he never imagined this level of power when he went SSGod. Earlier he said that even Vegetto wouldn't be enough against Beerus, so obviously he must have imagined Vegetto's power to come to this conclusion, therefore SSGod > Vegetto, then against Frieza it's revealed that SSBlue is even stronger than SSGod by the narrator and implied by Goku himself.

SS Vegetto is stronger than SS3 Goku.
So, it'd be something like this:

Goku- 1
Ss3- 400
Vegetto ss- 400
Ssb- 500
Vegetto Ss2- 800

If Blue is just 500x then Vegetto would be stronger.

Manga SSBlue isn't stronger than Vegetto, it's different in the anime.
My numbers would go like this:
Goku: 1
SSJ2 100
SSJ3: 400
Vegetto: 100
Super Vegetto: 5,000
SSJ3 Vegetto: 40,000
SSGod: 50,000
SSBlue: 75,000
SSJ3 (Manga): 200
MSSJ2 Trunks (Manga): 200
SSJ2 Mutation Vegeta (Manga): 250
SSBlue (Manga): 500

Why is Base Vegetto weaker than SS3 Goku in the Anime? In BOTH the Anime versions, Base Vegetto beat Buuhan to a pulp.

[TheUltimateNinja]

SS Vegetto is stronger than SS3 Goku.
So, it'd be something like this:

Goku- 1
Ss3- 400
Vegetto ss- 400
Ssb- 500
Vegetto Ss2- 800

If Blue is just 500x then Vegetto would be stronger.

Manga SSBlue isn't stronger than Vegetto, it's different in the anime.
My numbers would go like this:
Goku: 1
SSJ2 100
SSJ3: 400
Vegetto: 100
Super Vegetto: 5,000
SSJ3 Vegetto: 40,000
SSGod: 50,000
SSBlue: 75,000
SSJ3 (Manga): 200
MSSJ2 Trunks (Manga): 200
SSJ2 Mutation Vegeta (Manga): 250
SSBlue (Manga): 500

Why is Base Vegetto weaker than SS3 Goku in the Anime? In BOTH the Anime versions, Base Vegetto beat Buuhan to a pulp.

I don't like to inflate power levels too much, and in the original manga he went straight to SSJ so he was probably weaker than Buuhan in base.

[Saturnine]

Well, Black post-Zenkai being able to stop Vegeta in mere SSj may sound outlandish and suggest a small multiplier for SSj Blue, but let's just put it down to a huge Zenkai in the manga.

In the anime, base Black is on SSj3 Goku's level right off the bat, so he's 400 times stronger than Goku already. Put another 50x on top of it and you've got a staggering difference. Only that in the anime, SSj Rose seems to be the equivalent of regular SSj. Still, a gap of 20,000x compared to Base shows nicely just what a multiplier SSj Blue can be, since SSj Blue Goku could hold his own. That is of course if we assume the 50x multiplier still holds.

I'm not sure how this will be explained in the manga though. Probably by having very small multipliers for SSj God and Blue, just to make the gap between Beerus and the guys seem understandable. We'll have to see the dialogue to understand, I'm sure Toyotaro comes up with something at least reasonably logical.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Okay, here's all the plot holes this creates, tell me if I missed any:
1: Why didn't Goku and Vegeta just become Vegetto to fight Beerus? As we've just seen SSBlue isn't even close to Super Vegetto, let alone SSJ3 Vegetto. SSJ3 Vegetto would be at least 10x stronger than SSGod Goku and easily able to wreck Beerus.

2: If Vegeta was going to lose 90% of his power from going Blue, he should have gone SSJ2 instead. These past few chapters show that his SSJ2 is far above Goku's SSJ3 as SSJ2 Vegeta > Black > SSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku, so even if you nerf SSJ3 and make it only a 200x multiplier, SSJ2 Vegeta would be 250x at least, 50% of SSBlue. With that much power he'd even be able to break Hit's timeskip like SSGod Goku.

3: What the heck is going on with Black? I thought that maybe his total power was Zamasu + Goku and that's why transforming didn't give him much of a boost since only the Goku side would get powered up, but clearly he just got a massive boost from going SSJ whereas earlier his power barely increased.

[DBZ Macky]

This might be getting off-topic, but I recently read some of Toyble's old stuff. He made sure to include a few pages with battle powers. For example, in DB Zero he gave kid Raditz a BP of ~500 and Bardock a BP of 10,000.
Is there any chance that Toyotarou himself is interested in power scaling and all that stuff?

Because if he is, then rest assured, most BP related problems in the Manga could be attributed to Toriyama.

[TheMikado]

Okay, here's all the plot holes this creates, tell me if I missed any:
1: Why didn't Goku and Vegeta just become Vegetto to fight Beerus? As we've just seen SSBlue isn't even close to Super Vegetto, let alone SSJ3 Vegetto. SSJ3 Vegetto would be at least 10x stronger than SSGod Goku and easily able to wreck Beerus.

2: If Vegeta was going to lose 90% of his power from going Blue, he should have gone SSJ2 instead. These past few chapters show that his SSJ2 is far above Goku's SSJ3 as SSJ2 Vegeta > Black > SSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku, so even if you nerf SSJ3 and make it only a 200x multiplier, SSJ2 Vegeta would be 250x at least, 50% of SSBlue. With that much power he'd even be able to break Hit's timeskip like SSGod Goku.

3: What the heck is going on with Black? I thought that maybe his total power was Zamasu + Goku and that's why transforming didn't give him much of a boost since only the Goku side would get powered up, but clearly he just got a massive boost from going SSJ whereas earlier his power barely increased.

1) To become Vegetto they need Potara earrings. Not sure where they would have gotten them and I doubt Kaioshin would give up his to let them go ahead and fight Beerus just for $h*ts & giggles. Also we don't know how strong a Gogeta would be compared to a Vegetto, so its possible that even fused they wouldn't be strong enough. I'm not sure why everyone assumes the quote about fusion in the anime references Vegetto, when they HAVE NO MEANS to actually become Vegetto. They would have to go Gogeta and we don't know if that's a weaker fusion or not and if it is, by how much.

2) It's possible he didn't realize it. Its unlikely he's used it several times in succession in battle. Or based on Vegeta's character he could have gotten cocky and tried to use it as an intimidation factor.

3) This can still be the case, or he was holding back. it could be any number of reasons although its implied he jobbed on purpose. The manga did a poor job of dropping the hints of him jobbing. They are definitely there with Trunks comments on Black in the previous chapter but they were not clear enough. I think the Goku + Zamasu power theory is good and still fits except that Zamasu may be have learned to apply SSJ to the entirety of himself which would make sense in the context of SSR as he applies his own internal God ki to the SSJ form to get SSR.

[TheMikado]

This might be getting off-topic, but I recently read some of Toyble's old stuff. He made sure to include a few pages with battle powers. For example, in DB Zero he gave kid Raditz a BP of ~500 and Bardock a BP of 10,000.
Is there any chance that Toyotarou himself is interested in power scaling and all that stuff?

Because if he is, then rest assured, most BP related problems in the Manga could be attributed to Toriyama.

Toyotaro is a fan just like the rest of us, and a part of the DB appeal and theme is POWER. Especially from the Saiyan arc onward. It would make sense that he would try to keep intact a main theme of the series. Especially because this entire theme of the series is about a whole other realm of power.

[Bullza]

What is your anime rank in the current episode?

Zeno Tier

Zeno

God Tier

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa

Fusion Tier

Spirit Trunks
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken

Super Saiyan Blue Tier

Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta
Super Trunks
Hit
Golden Frieza
Base Black

Super Saiyan Tier

Zamasu
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost

Base Tier

Base Trunks
Base Goku/Vegeta
Base Cabba
Frieza Final Form
Frost Third Form
Frost First Form
Botamo

High DBZ Tier

Super Vegito
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Mystic Gohan
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Frieza First Form
Super Saiyan Gohan

DBZ Tier

Majin Buu
Barry Khan
Base Gohan/Piccolo
Tagoma
Supreme Kai
Gowasu

[Sora Saiyan]

Okay, isn't this clear evidence that SSBlue isn't all that strong in the manga? People were dismissing SSJ Goku being in the same league as 10% of SSBlue Vegeta back in the U6 arc, but this is undeniable evidence, right? SSJ2 Black is thrashing SSBlue Vegeta, this proves that SSBlue is probably a 500x multiplier at best,

It's impossible for Blue to be that weak since Base Black was way above SSJ3 Goku. Trunks was close to SSJ3 but nowhere near Base Black. So either way Vegeta must've been fighting at a level that is much much greater than 50x SSJ3 considering what he did to Black. The power scaling is strange in the manga aswell because of Vegetas showing against SSJ/2 Black in the last chapter. The only way it would make sense is if Vegeta still had his mutated form or they somehow can feed bits of god ki into their other forms to greatly improve them.

[Bullza]

Oh that's right, there is an indication of the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier at least for the manga.

Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than Black as a Super Saiyan or a Super Saiyan 2. Base Black was stronger than Super Saiyan 3.

So Super Saiyan Blue is either considerably more than 50x or 100x stronger than Super Saiyan 3.

I wonder then if perhaps the idea that Super Saiyan Blue is 50x stronger than Super Saiyan God could work then being as it is just supposed to be the Super Saiyan form of it.

[TheMikado]

Okay, isn't this clear evidence that SSBlue isn't all that strong in the manga? People were dismissing SSJ Goku being in the same league as 10% of SSBlue Vegeta back in the U6 arc, but this is undeniable evidence, right? SSJ2 Black is thrashing SSBlue Vegeta, this proves that SSBlue is probably a 500x multiplier at best,

It's impossible for Blue to be that weak since Base Black was way above SSJ3 Goku. Trunks was close to SSJ3 but nowhere near Base Black. So either way Vegeta must've been fighting at a level that is much much greater than 50x SSJ3 considering what he did to Black. The power scaling is strange in the manga aswell because of Vegetas showing against SSJ/2 Black in the last chapter. The only way it would make sense is if Vegeta still had his mutated form or they somehow can feed bits of god ki into their other forms to greatly improve them.

It's implied Black purposely jobbed for the zenkai. This would also fit the anime plotline where Black also purposely jobbed. It even has the same line of Trunks saying somethings not right in both the manga and anime.

[Sora Saiyan]

Okay, isn't this clear evidence that SSBlue isn't all that strong in the manga? People were dismissing SSJ Goku being in the same league as 10% of SSBlue Vegeta back in the U6 arc, but this is undeniable evidence, right? SSJ2 Black is thrashing SSBlue Vegeta, this proves that SSBlue is probably a 500x multiplier at best,

It's impossible for Blue to be that weak since Base Black was way above SSJ3 Goku. Trunks was close to SSJ3 but nowhere near Base Black. So either way Vegeta must've been fighting at a level that is much much greater than 50x SSJ3 considering what he did to Black. The power scaling is strange in the manga aswell because of Vegetas showing against SSJ/2 Black in the last chapter. The only way it would make sense is if Vegeta still had his mutated form or they somehow can feed bits of god ki into their other forms to greatly improve them.

It's implied Black purposely jobbed for the zenkai. This would also fit the anime plotline where Black also purposely jobbed. It even has the same line of Trunks saying somethings not right in both the manga and anime.

Implied? Really? The entire chapter before it wasn't implied in the slightest in fact he was very lucky to escape with his life, I don't think he purposely jobbed at all, it was shown in such a bad way if that's what was implied in this chapter. I'll have to wait until I see this chapter to make up my mind, but unless it's heavily, and I mean massively, implied then I can't accept it after the previous battle they had.

[TheMikado]

It's impossible for Blue to be that weak since Base Black was way above SSJ3 Goku. Trunks was close to SSJ3 but nowhere near Base Black. So either way Vegeta must've been fighting at a level that is much much greater than 50x SSJ3 considering what he did to Black. The power scaling is strange in the manga aswell because of Vegetas showing against SSJ/2 Black in the last chapter. The only way it would make sense is if Vegeta still had his mutated form or they somehow can feed bits of god ki into their other forms to greatly improve them.

It's implied Black purposely jobbed for the zenkai. This would also fit the anime plotline where Black also purposely jobbed. It even has the same line of Trunks saying somethings not right in both the manga and anime.

Implied? Really? The entire chapter before it wasn't implied in the slightest in fact he was very lucky to escape with his life, I don't think he purposely jobbed at all, it was shown in such a bad way if that's what was implied in this chapter. I'll have to wait until I see this chapter to make up my mind, but unless it's heavily, and I mean massively, implied then I can't accept it after the previous battle they had.

I think the part that was supposed to imply it in the last chapter was Trunks repeated comments about something being wrong about Black and him fighting Vegeta and telling him to finish Black off quickly because he was suspicious. As I've said before the execution of what was being implied was so bad that it wasn't effective at all.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Okay, isn't this clear evidence that SSBlue isn't all that strong in the manga? People were dismissing SSJ Goku being in the same league as 10% of SSBlue Vegeta back in the U6 arc, but this is undeniable evidence, right? SSJ2 Black is thrashing SSBlue Vegeta, this proves that SSBlue is probably a 500x multiplier at best,

Vegeta in SSJ2 defeated Black SSJ2 which was much stronger than Goku SSJ3, the issue neither is the SSB itself. The Zenkai that Black had was absurd, giant and so he in SSJ was able to do that. You can not consider transformation levels here, it was much stronger in base form
Did not you see that he got much stronger when he turned into SSGSS (Rose)?
The SSGSS in the manga is still very strong but I can not understand that nonsense Zenkai that Black had, totally meaningless

[TheUltimateNinja]

Oh that's right, there is an indication of the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier at least for the manga.

Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than Black as a Super Saiyan or a Super Saiyan 2. Base Black was stronger than Super Saiyan 3.

So Super Saiyan Blue is either considerably more than 50x or 100x stronger than Super Saiyan 3.

I wonder then if perhaps the idea that Super Saiyan Blue is 50x stronger than Super Saiyan God could work then being as it is just supposed to be the Super Saiyan form of it.

SSBlue isn't that strong, SSJ1/2 Black was effortlessly thrashing Vegeta just now. And earlier he didn't power up from transforming unless you want to say SSJ2 Vegeta is 50-100x SSJ3 as well.

It's impossible for Blue to be that weak since Base Black was way above SSJ3 Goku. Trunks was close to SSJ3 but nowhere near Base Black. So either way Vegeta must've been fighting at a level that is much much greater than 50x SSJ3 considering what he did to Black. The power scaling is strange in the manga aswell because of Vegetas showing against SSJ/2 Black in the last chapter. The only way it would make sense is if Vegeta still had his mutated form or they somehow can feed bits of god ki into their other forms to greatly improve them.

There's no indication that they have God ki in any form but SSBlue, though. And Vegeta was performing the exact same against both Base and SSJ Black, in fact he may have even been doing better against SSJ Black because Base Black was at least able to avoid & block some of his hits, so I really doubt SSJ was even a 2x multiplier for Black, let alone 50x.