DBZGTKOSDH wrote:First of all, Whis doesn't say that Tokitobashi works only on those that are equal or weaker than Hit. This is a mistranslation.
What? That's the way my fiancé translated it, and the way Viz translated it. (Even VulgarStream ended up with the same thing.) So, unless Herms is seeing something the rest of us didn't...
Direct translations of the Korean DB Online timeline and guidebook.
My personal "canon" and BP list. (Coming Soon)
Nobody is going to talk about how Black reacts to Trunks' presence twice but still manages to get hit by him multiple times despite being about dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue?
Also, it seems manga Zamasu is near SSB level, considering he dodged some of Goku's hits.
Doctor. wrote:Nobody is going to talk about how Black reacts to Trunks' presence twice but still manages to get hit by him multiple times despite being about dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue?
Also, it seems manga Zamasu is near SSB level, considering he dodged some of Goku's hits.
He was distracted both times and doesn't seems like he actually got hurt, only pushed back. The story makes both of them surprise attacks, so that they can be logical.
There's precedents for these types of situations. Like Vegeta hurting slightly Cell because he was distracted by Gohan's Kamehameha. There's probably more but it's the only one I can remember right now.
LightBing wrote:He was distracted both times and doesn't seems like he actually got hurt, only pushed back. The story makes both of them surprise attacks, so that they can be logical.
There's precedents for these types of situations. Like Vegeta hurting slightly Cell because he was distracted by Gohan's Kamehameha. There's probably more but it's the only one I can remember right now.
Black saw Trunks coming both times. Cell never saw Vegeta's attack because he was focused on Gohan.
A better example would have been Cell tanking Kuririn's blows after transforming. Which, logically, is what should have happened here.
Doctor. wrote:Nobody is going to talk about how Black reacts to Trunks' presence twice but still manages to get hit by him multiple times despite being about dozens of times stronger than Super Saiyan Blue?
Also, it seems manga Zamasu is near SSB level, considering he dodged some of Goku's hits.
It doesn't make much sense for Zamasu to be near SSB considering he stole Goku's body to reach higher heights.
I also got the feeling Zamasu is SSJ2 tier in the manga (can beat SSJ1 Goku but gets easily beaten by SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks)
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What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return
Additional lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball Daima
LightBing wrote:He was distracted both times and doesn't seems like he actually got hurt, only pushed back. The story makes both of them surprise attacks, so that they can be logical.
There's precedents for these types of situations. Like Vegeta hurting slightly Cell because he was distracted by Gohan's Kamehameha. There's probably more but it's the only one I can remember right now.
Black saw Trunks coming both times. Cell never saw Vegeta's attack because he was focused on Gohan.
A better example would have been Cell tanking Kuririn's blows after transforming. Which, logically, is what should have happened here.
I brushed it off as reduced reaction time due to being surprised. We have Piccolo keeping Frost at bay and dodging some of his attacks despite the power difference, Freeza failing to dodge completely Kuririn's kienzan and he saw it coming much like Black here. Again, there's precedence for these type of situations.
More of these only help Dragon Ball, the approach of the one stronger being automatically invulnerable to anything makes it so boring and limiting.
LightBing wrote:I brushed it off as reduced reaction time due to being surprised. We have Piccolo keeping Frost at bay and dodging some of his attacks despite the power difference, Freeza failing to dodge completely Kuririn's kienzan and he saw it coming much like Black here. Again, there's precedence for these type of situations.
More of these only help Dragon Ball, the approach of the one stronger being automatically invulnerable to anything makes it so boring and limiting.
Your first example is from DBS, where the power levels are terribly inconsistent (or I wouldn't have made that first post), and the power difference isn't that big anyway. Freeza didn't see the first Kienzan coming and he did dodge all of the subsequent ones.
Sure, it's good from a story perspective. But the story isn't the point here, we're in a thread about power levels.
LightBing wrote:I brushed it off as reduced reaction time due to being surprised. We have Piccolo keeping Frost at bay and dodging some of his attacks despite the power difference, Freeza failing to dodge completely Kuririn's kienzan and he saw it coming much like Black here. Again, there's precedence for these type of situations.
More of these only help Dragon Ball, the approach of the one stronger being automatically invulnerable to anything makes it so boring and limiting.
Your first example is from DBS, where the power levels are terribly inconsistent (or I wouldn't have made that first post), and the power difference isn't that big anyway. Freeza didn't see the first Kienzan coming and he did dodge all of the subsequent ones.
Sure, it's good from a story perspective. But the story isn't the point here, we're in a thread about power levels.
Super's manga has been consistent within itself. Freeza saw the first Kienzan, I made sure to check since I didn't want to talk out of my ass. I didn't try to find more examples because I thought the Freeza one was similar enough to the Black situation, there's likely more.
LightBing wrote:I brushed it off as reduced reaction time due to being surprised. We have Piccolo keeping Frost at bay and dodging some of his attacks despite the power difference, Freeza failing to dodge completely Kuririn's kienzan and he saw it coming much like Black here. Again, there's precedence for these type of situations.
More of these only help Dragon Ball, the approach of the one stronger being automatically invulnerable to anything makes it so boring and limiting.
Your first example is from DBS, where the power levels are terribly inconsistent (or I wouldn't have made that first post), and the power difference isn't that big anyway. Freeza didn't see the first Kienzan coming and he did dodge all of the subsequent ones.
Sure, it's good from a story perspective. But the story isn't the point here, we're in a thread about power levels.
Super's manga has been consistent within itself. Freeza saw the first Kienzan, I made sure to check since I didn't want to talk out of my ass. I didn't try to find more examples because I thought the Freeza one was similar enough to the Black situation, there's likely more.
Super's manga has barely been consistent, it has a lot of ifs.
You're right, Freeza saw the Kienzan coming, I just checked. It doesn't really matter, the Kienzan has been known to slice through things stronger than the user, Freeza did indeed try to dodge and we don't know where it was that Freeza saw the attack, the Kienzan could have been right next to him. Trunks is literally hundreds of times weaker than Black. Black shouldn't even be fazed by his blows and just tank them like Cell did with Kuririn.
It was a scene to move the plot foward, it doesn't make sense on its own.
If Freeza seeing the Kienzan doesn't matter why did you use it as an argument in the other post?
Also if the Kienzan was right next to him then it would be almost the same as Trunks, he was right next to Black. The difference in power between Trunks and Black is larger than between Kuririn and Freeza, both still fall in the "not even close category".
The conversation is turning into pedantry, doesn't seem like your standards can be reached.
I also got the feeling Zamasu is SSJ2 tier in the manga (can beat SSJ1 Goku but gets easily beaten by SSB Goku and SSJ2 Trunks)
I'd say the same is true for in the anime as well. Goku and Trunks got the better of Zamasu as Super Saiyan 2's so maybe he's close to but not quite at that level.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:First of all, Whis doesn't say that Tokitobashi works only on those that are equal or weaker than Hit. This is a mistranslation.
What? That's the way my fiancé translated it, and the way Viz translated it. (Even VulgarStream ended up with the same thing.) So, unless Herms is seeing something the rest of us didn't...
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Whis isn't saying in the image you just posted that if the opponent is stronger than Hit, Tokitobashi doesn't work on him. VulgarStream made it sound like that.
Doctor. wrote:Black saw Trunks coming both times.
Seeing them doesn't mean he was expecting them, or that he was ready for them.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Seeing them doesn't mean he was expecting them, or that he was ready for them.
Irrelevant, Black's body shouldn't even budge from a hit the moment that Black saw him.
Again... that's not how it works.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Seeing them doesn't mean he was expecting them, or that he was ready for them.
Irrelevant, Black's body shouldn't even budge from a hit the moment that Black saw him.
Again... that's not how it works.
Yes, it is? That's exactly how Dragon Ball's power system works. If you're much stronger than your opponent, then your opponent's hits don't faze you unless you're unaware of their presence. Vegeta blasts second form Freeza in the back and it barely scratches him. Kuririn tries to attack Cell and he doesn't even budge.
Sneak attacks only work if:
a) The opponent is unaware of your presence;
b) You're using a special technique (Shin Kikoho, Kienzan);
Doctor. wrote:
Irrelevant, Black's body shouldn't even budge from a hit the moment that Black saw him.
Again... that's not how it works.
Yes, it is? That's exactly how Dragon Ball's power system works. If you're much stronger than your opponent, then your opponent's hits don't faze you unless you're unaware of their presence. Vegeta blasts second form Freeza in the back and it barely scratches him. Kuririn tries to attack Cell and he doesn't even budge.
Sneak attacks only work if:
a) The opponent is unaware of your presence;
b) You're using a special technique (Shin Kikoho, Kienzan);
None of these factors were at play.
The Cell thing was anime filler only. The manga follows the manga and the anime follows the anime.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:First of all, Whis doesn't say that Tokitobashi works only on those that are equal or weaker than Hit. This is a mistranslation.
What? That's the way my fiancé translated it, and the way Viz translated it. (Even VulgarStream ended up with the same thing.) So, unless Herms is seeing something the rest of us didn't...
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Whis isn't saying in the image you just posted that if the opponent is stronger than Hit, Tokitobashi doesn't work on him. VulgarStream made it sound like that.
Huh? But... that is exactly what Whis is saying.
"Hit's skills are only effective against opponents who are near or below his level."
Sounds pretty clear cut to me.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Again... that's not how it works.
Yes, it is? That's exactly how Dragon Ball's power system works. If you're much stronger than your opponent, then your opponent's hits don't faze you unless you're unaware of their presence. Vegeta blasts second form Freeza in the back and it barely scratches him. Kuririn tries to attack Cell and he doesn't even budge.
Sneak attacks only work if:
a) The opponent is unaware of your presence;
b) You're using a special technique (Shin Kikoho, Kienzan);
None of these factors were at play.
The Cell thing was anime filler only. The manga follows the manga and the anime follows the anime.
[/spoiler]
