Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:40 pm
Kakashi wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:You are right it was never implied, it was stated in the manga/anime, and various guidebooks.
Proof?
Actually it's a theory not official. It's just HEAVILY IMPLIED.
Daizenshuu EX Guide wrote:It is widely speculated that the Sentô Ryoku ("combat strength," or if you must, "power level") of the character must be around 180,000, which Goku reaches on Namek; this cannot be confirmed or denied, however (it's merely speculation). The transformation into a Super Saiyan is generally caused by an overwhelming sense of rage and hatred.
http://web.archive.org/web/201204261701 ... ons/saiyan
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Draken
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by Draken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:46 pm
KentalSSJ6 wrote:Hellspawn28 wrote:SSj HL Goku Jr. vs. 21st TB Goku.
Who wins? I never view Goku Jr. that strong, but some people think that he's pretty strong since he gets training from Pan.
Refresh my memory, was the 21st TB During Dragonball, or was it in DBZ?
Personally I see Goku Jr. whooping Goku at any point in Dragonball and quite possibly up to Namek Saga Goku.
There's no way Goku Jr. was above an average human adult IMO, he was getting beat up by regular bullies. If an average old farmer has a PL of 5, I'd put Goku Jr. at like 2 or 3, max.
Either way I'd say Goku wins due to superior skill.
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Hellspawn28
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by Hellspawn28 » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:47 pm
KentalSSJ6 wrote:Hellspawn28 wrote:SSj HL Goku Jr. vs. 21st TB Goku.
Who wins? I never view Goku Jr. that strong, but some people think that he's pretty strong since he gets training from Pan.
Refresh my memory, was the 21st TB During Dragonball, or was it in DBZ?
Personally I see Goku Jr. whooping Goku at any point in Dragonball and quite possibly up to Namek Saga Goku.
The 21st TB was the 21st World Tournament. I remember Goku Jr. being weak as shit since he got his ass kick from school bullies. I remember in HL that was shown doing training with Pan. So I think at SSj, he might be stronger then early DB Goku.
She/Her
PS5 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:52 pm
Kakashi wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:You are right it was never implied, it was stated in the manga/anime, and various guidebooks.
Proof?
Goku was at 90.000 at that point and he was above the standard level of the Saiyans before reaching that level, while Vegeta at 30.000 hadn't surpassed that level yet.
Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P12.5
Narrator: “Even Goku hasn’t realized…That somewhere along the line he’s acquired enough power to surpass the level of Saiyan limits…”
Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P14.1-3
Context: after Goku knocks out Recoom
Vegeta: “T-that just now wasn’t an attack…He can’t fool my eyes…It was a stupendously heavy blow…He’s clearly surpassed the fighting level of Saiyans…He’s a completely different person than the one I fought on Earth…What the hell kind of training did he do?...Was the legend true…!? Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”
Chapter: 289 (DBZ 95), P6.1-2
Context: after Jheese freaks out over Vegeta's new battle power
Vegeta: “That’s right…I’ve surpassed Saiyan limits, and my strength is still increasing more and more…The truth is that I’ve realized it too…That this extension of my power isn’t merely what you’d call giftedness…In other words…I’m steadily drawing near…to becoming a Super Saiyan!”
Daizenshuu 7 wrote:Super Saiyan
Characteristics
The ultimate Saiyan warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiyan. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiyans, but in reality
any Saiyan that possesses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiyan race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. The outward signs of the transformation include an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils. In addition, a battle power 50 times that of normal is proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:53 pm
Oh shit. My mistake man. Didn't know Daizenshuu 7 had that. I went by Daizenhuu EX. Silly me....
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KentalSSJ6
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by KentalSSJ6 » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:22 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote:KentalSSJ6 wrote:Hellspawn28 wrote:SSj HL Goku Jr. vs. 21st TB Goku.
Who wins? I never view Goku Jr. that strong, but some people think that he's pretty strong since he gets training from Pan.
Refresh my memory, was the 21st TB During Dragonball, or was it in DBZ?
Personally I see Goku Jr. whooping Goku at any point in Dragonball and quite possibly up to Namek Saga Goku.
The 21st TB was the 21st World Tournament. I remember Goku Jr. being weak as shit since he got his ass kick from school bullies. I remember in HL that was shown doing training with Pan. So I think at SSj, he might be stronger then early DB Goku.
Does the Tournament scene at the end of GT happen before or after Hero's Legacy?
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:24 pm
KentalSSJ6 wrote:
Does the Tournament scene at the end of GT happen before or after Hero's Legacy?
It's after the special. Goku Jr. is capable of going Super Saiyan at will in the last episode, while in the special, he uses it for the first time.
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Saiga
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by Saiga » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:45 pm
IIRC Bootenks said that he had 10 minutes left of fusion before anyone intervened to help Gohan. So yeah, he lasted 20 minutes at least. And because of that I think he'd outlast and beat Gogeta.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:05 pm
That entry didn't say anything about "surpassing saiyan limits", it literally said anyone with a "battle power above the standard level" could do it. The standard level was what, fifteen hundred, if we are take to Raditz as an example? Bardock could still transform while being weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta. Like I think both he and Chilled were.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Saiga
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by Saiga » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:12 pm
Yeah, I would think that Vegeta at 18,000 was already beyond "standard" unless it uses some really weird definition of standard.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on
my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:19 pm
Evolution Goku vs Pilfar Arc Goku
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Draken
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by Draken » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:43 pm
Evolution Goku gets buried under his own trash pile and dies.
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Kid Buu
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by Kid Buu » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:49 pm
Evolution Yamcha Vs. Pilaf Yamcha
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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Saiga
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by Saiga » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:03 am
Evolution Yamcha runs over Pilaf Yamcha in his jeep, like he does in his ultimate in the PSP game. I don't know how effective it would be, but who cares? It's hilarious.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:06 am
Pilaf Yamcha couldn't make it to the fight, because he slipped on a puddle of his own nervous urine and broke his leg.
Yeah, I would think that Vegeta at 18,000 was already beyond "standard" unless it uses some really weird definition of standard.
How strong do you think Chilled was supposed to be, Saiga?
Last edited by
RandomGuy96 on Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Kid Buu
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by Kid Buu » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:21 am
Pilaf arc would have a heart attack if he saw someone as hot as Evolution Bulma.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:28 am
Kid Buu wrote:Pilaf arc would have a heart attack if he saw someone as hot as Evolution Bulma.
I think Manga-Anime Bulma is sexier. But that Mai
actor. Yamcha would explode.
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Saiga
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by Saiga » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:01 am
RandomGuy96 wrote:
How strong do you think Chilled was supposed to be, Saiga?
Hard to say. Probably closer to base Bardock than Super Saiyan Bardock, but who knows how strong he was with a potential Zenkai.
I'd like to think he was around Freeza's first form, but he doesn't really look that strong given his showing.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:06 am
Does he even have any feats other than bleeding from a punch from base Bardock, then knocking that same Bardock down? Based purely on that, I only have him at 16,000.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Saiga
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by Saiga » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:27 am
Does surviving Super Saiyan Bardock's hits count as a feat? Otherwise, no.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on
my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
