The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Friezacooler]

what pl could tank frieza's first form supernova?

[TheGmGoken]

what pl could tank Freeza's first form supernova?

The power level is called plot. You can have a BP of 78 and tank Freeza's supernova since the plot calls for it.

In Universe answer: 1,000,0000

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That entry didn't say anything about "surpassing saiyan limits", it literally said anyone with a "battle power above the standard level" could do it. The standard level was what, fifteen hundred, if we are take to Raditz as an example? Bardock could still transform while being weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta. Like I think both he and Chilled were.

Vegeta (30.000) said that Goku (90.000) surpassed the standard Saiyan level, which made him and even Ginyu think that he is a Super Saiyan. When he powered-up, he said that he also surpassed the standard Saiyan level, which makes him closer to become a Super Saiyan. D7 states that surpassing the standard [Saiyan] level is a requirement to become a Super Saiyan (it must be talking about the standard Saiyan level, since it was mentioned in the manga as being connected with SS, and we don't have any other definition of a standard level, and it also sounds like they got that from these lines in the manga).

So no, Bardock (and other Saiyan that isn't the legendary Super Saiyan like Broli or a Saiyan Halfling like Goten, Trunks, and Goku Jr.) can't become a Super Saiyan if he isn't somewhere between 30.000 & 90.000.

[RandomGuy96]

That entry didn't say anything about "surpassing saiyan limits", it literally said anyone with a "battle power above the standard level" could do it. The standard level was what, fifteen hundred, if we are take to Raditz as an example? Bardock could still transform while being weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta. Like I think both he and Chilled were.

Vegeta (30.000) said that Goku (90.000) surpassed the standard Saiyan level, which made him and even Ginyu think that he is a Super Saiyan. When he powered-up, he said that he also surpassed the standard Saiyan level, which makes him closer to become a Super Saiyan. D7 states that surpassing the standard [Saiyan] level is a requirement to become a Super Saiyan (it must be talking about the standard Saiyan level, since it was mentioned in the manga as being connected with SS, and we don't have any other definition of a standard level).

So no, Bardock (and other Saiyan that isn't the legendary Super Saiyan like Broli or a Saiyan Halfling like Goten, Trunks, and Goku Jr.) can't become a Super Saiyan if he isn't somewhere between 30.000 & 90.000.

No, both the narrator and Vegeta said he surpassed "saiyan limits", which is entirely different from saying "standard saiyan level". The D7 entry very specifically says "standard level" rather than "saiyan limits". Standard saiyan level was Raditz.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, both the narrator and Vegeta said he surpassed "saiyan limits", which is entirely different from saying "standard saiyan level". The D7 entry very specifically says "standard level" rather than "saiyan limits". Standard saiyan level was Raditz.

Vegeta also said "standard Saiyan level" once, so it's the same thing worded differently.

Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P14.1-3
Context: after Goku knocks out Recoom
Vegeta: “T-that just now wasn’t an attack…He can’t fool my eyes…It was a stupendously heavy blow…He’s clearly surpassed the fighting level of Saiyans…He’s a completely different person than the one I fought on Earth…What the hell kind of training did he do?...Was the legend true…!? Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Standard saiyan level was Raditz.

Says who?

[RandomGuy96]

No, "the fighting level if saiyans" is definitely not the same thing as "standard saiyan level". It sounds a lot more like "saiyan limits". And 2/3 of the quotes you posted said "saiyan limits". Not that it matters; the entry says that a saiyan must only surpass "standard level" which Bardock, as the second most powerful saiyan alive at the time, certainly did. Standard literally means the usual or most common of its kind. Bardock was far above "common" level saiyans.

It was an educated guess, but it was never outright stated. Below 4 thousand at least, if you want a more objective statement. Definitely nowhere near Bardock's level before he died.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, "the fighting level if saiyans" is definitely not the same thing as "standard saiyan level". It sounds a lot more like "saiyan limits". And 2/3 of the quotes you posted said "saiyan limits". Not that it matters;

It was referred twice as "Saiyan limits" and once as "standard Saiyan level" (by the same character for the same case), which means that those 2 things are the same thing. Plus, D7 has most likely taken the requirement from these statements.

the entry says that a saiyan must only surpass "standard level" which Bardock, as the second most powerful saiyan alive at the time, certainly did. Standard literally means the usual or most common of its kind. Bardock was far above "common" level saiyans.

It was an educated guess, but it was never outright stated. Below 4 thousand at least, if you want a more objective statement. Definitely nowhere near Bardock's level before he died.

But Vegeta was at 30.000, and he was still within the standard Saiyan level, while Goku at 90.000 was beyond that, which is what made Vegeta & Ginyu think that Goku was a Super Saiyan.

[RandomGuy96]

It was referred twice as "Saiyan limits" and once as "standard Saiyan level" (by the same character for the same case), which means that those 2 things are the same thing. Plus, D7 has most likely taken the requirement from these statements.

Except it's never referred to "standard saiyan level" by Vegeta. It's only referred to as that as in the Daizenshuu.

But Vegeta was at 30.000, and he was still within the standard Saiyan level, while Goku at 90.000 was beyond that, which is what made Vegeta & Ginyu think that Goku was a Super Saiyan.

No he wasn't. That's not the definition of the word "standard". He was for above standard saiyan level, but he had not "surpassed saiyan limits" like Goku. Doing so is not a requirement to transform.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The "fighting level of Saiyans" & "standard Saiyan level" sound like they are the same things.

[TheGmGoken]

The "fighting level of Saiyans" & "standard Saiyan level" sound like they are the same things.

It does? . Standard sounds like something around Raditz perhaps maybe middle class(If they have one) while Fighting level sounds like the average saiyan.

[RandomGuy96]

The "fighting level of Saiyans" & "standard Saiyan level" sound like they are the same things.

They're most definitely not the same thing. Those phrases simply say different things. One is talking about the fighting level of saiyans; as in, all saiyans and saiyans in general. Surpassing the fighting level of the saiyan race in general is more surpassing "the limits of saiyans" than "surpassing the standard level of saiyan". The other one is "standard level", which is not every single saiyan, just the most mid-level ones, like Raditz. I really don't know what your standards are if the second most powerful saiyan alive out of thousands or millions of saiyans hadn't surpassed "the standard".

And even if they do sound the same to you, that doesn't mean that they are actually the same thing. It definitely was not "stated in the manga/anime and various guidebooks" that a saiyan has to be over 30,000 to become a Super Saiyan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I disagree. What you are describing is the average Saiyan level. The standard level/fighting level/limits of the Saiyans sounds to me as the battle power you would see Saiyans to normally display, which could be 400, 1.500, 4.000, 8.000, 18.000, or 30.000. Saiyan arc Vegeta is stronger than King Vegeta, the strongest Saiyan of his time, but we don't know how strong the Saiyans before King Vegeta's ruling were. They could easily have been close of above 30.000, since when Ginyu estimated that Goku's BP was 60.000 (in reality it was 90.000), Jheese said that no one had heard of a Saiyan with BP at 60.000, with Ginyu saying that this could be so because maybe he is a mutant. But why wasn't Jheese surprised that Vegeta, a Saiyan, had a BP of 30.000? Because there were already Saiyans with BP between 30.000 & 60.000 in the past.

[RandomGuy96]

I disagree. What you are describing is the average Saiyan level. The standard level/fighting level/limits of the Saiyans sounds to me as the battle power you would see Saiyans to normally display, which could be 400, 1.500, 4.000, 8.000, 18.000, or 30.000. Saiyan arc Vegeta is stronger than King Vegeta, the strongest Saiyan of his time, but we don't know how strong the Saiyans before King Vegeta's ruling were. They could easily have been close of above 30.000, since when Ginyu estimated that Goku's BP was 60.000 (in reality it was 90.000), Jheese said that no one had heard of a Saiyan with BP at 60.000, with Ginyu saying that this could be so because maybe he is a mutant. But why wasn't Jheese surprised that Vegeta, a Saiyan, had a BP of 30.000? Because there were already Saiyans with BP between 30.000 & 60.000 in the past.

18,000 isn't something a saiyan would normally display. Neither is 4,000. Both of those put that saiyan in the category of top ten most powerful saiyans alive at the time of Vegeta's destruction. Someone at that level has most definitely "surpassed standard saiyan level", the common level you'd see a saiyan display. Surpassing the standard and surpassing the very limit of the entire race are two very different things.

He was surprised, actually. He didn't specifically say anything about saiyans, but that doesn't really matter. Of course he'd be freaking out at someone actual above him and not really care how strong a saiyan got as long as they were still below him. It's not like Jeice should even know of any saiyan stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta at that point anyway, since King Vegeta was in power when the saiyans made contact with Freeza's empire, and Jeice shouldn't have seen any saiyans above Prince Vegeta's 18,000.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He was surprised, actually. He didn't specifically say anything about saiyans, but that doesn't really matter. Of course he'd be freaking out at someone actual above him and not really care how strong a saiyan got as long as they were still below him. It's not like Jeice should even know of any saiyan stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta at that point anyway, since KIng Vegeta was in power when the saiyans made contact with Freeza's empire.

Jheese & Butta were surprised because he altered his BP.

King Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan when he died, not in his ruling in general, and the Saiyans have been working under Freeza for many years, and in the manga, we don't know exactly when the Saiyans eradicated the Tsufruians & started working under Freeza (all we know from Toriyama is that the Saiyans & Tsufruians co-existed on Planet Plant at some point).

And Jheese already knew that Goku was stronger than him. He was surprised because no one had heard of a Saiyan at 60.000, and for Ginyu to believe he was a mutant, no known Saiyan had even gotten close to 60.000. No response like this ever came for Vegeta when he was at 30.000.

[RandomGuy96]

He was surprised, actually. He didn't specifically say anything about saiyans, but that doesn't really matter. Of course he'd be freaking out at someone actual above him and not really care how strong a saiyan got as long as they were still below him. It's not like Jeice should even know of any saiyan stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta at that point anyway, since KIng Vegeta was in power when the saiyans made contact with Freeza's empire.

Jheese & Butta were surprised because he altered his BP.

King Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan when he died, not in his ruling in general, and the Saiyans have been working under Freeza for many years, and in the manga, we don't know exactly when the Saiyans eradicated the Tsufruians & started working under Freeza (all we know from Toriyama is that the Saiyans & Tsufruians co-existed on Planet Plant at some point).

And Jheese already knew that Goku was stronger than him. He was surprised because no one had heard of a Saiyan at 60.000, and for Ginyu to believe he was a mutant, no known Saiyan had even gotten close to 60.000. No response like this ever came for Vegeta when he was at 30.000.

I'd find it quite silly if the leader of a warrior race wasn't the strongest, and that no one would challenge him if he wasn't. Especially if they were around three times stronger than him. He'd be a pitiful weakling in that case.

If you're going to go the "well that doesn't count, we don't actually know in the manga" route (because I'm pretty sure the anime had King Vegeta ruling the saiyans when they met Freeza), then King Vegeta doesn't even exist in the form we know him. Neither does Bardock. And he's not a Super Saiyan.

He should have, because Jeice shouldn't have known of any saiyan above King Vegeta. And again, it's not like this matters, since the entry said "standard saiyan level". I'm preeeeeeety sure that being the most powerful saiyan alive means you're past "standard".

[TheGmGoken]

This could be a new topic to create rather than a debate in the "VS" thread.

Anyways.

Evolution Mai vs Pilfar

Anime Pure Boo(Pure Boo is the strongest in the anime. Despite contradictions lol) vs Base Vegetto

[Kid Buu]

Anime Pure Boo(Pure Boo is the strongest in the anime. Despite contradictions lol) vs Base Vegetto

Pure Boo makes a hole in his chest and leaks out his smelly air; causing Vegetto to defuse.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'd find it quite silly if the leader of a warrior race wasn't the strongest, and that no one would challenge him if he wasn't. Especially if they were around three times stronger than him. He'd be a pitiful weakling in that case.

Being stronger doesn't make you a greater leader. King Vegeta was described to be a genius strategist, which is important for someone to be a leader. It's possible that he was respected among the Saiyans, as the King, which is why no one stronger than him tried to overthrown him. And even if someone did try to overthrow him by fighting him, he has many followers to team up & take out together the rebel. There are plenty of reasons for King Vegeta to be a King for a time even if he isn't the strongest.

If you're going to go the "well that doesn't count, we don't actually know in the manga" route (because I'm pretty sure the anime had King Vegeta ruling the saiyans when they met Freeza), then King Vegeta doesn't even exist in the form we know him. Neither does Bardock. And he's not a Super Saiyan.

Actually, King Vegeta was designed by Toriyama, Bardock exists in the manga (and we know he is weaker that King Vegeta from D7), and EoB was originally a manga. King Vegeta being the leader in taking over Planet Plant comes from PtEtS, while filler & Toriyama don't specify when the Saiyans started working with Freeza.

He should have, because Jeice shouldn't have known of any saiyan above King Vegeta. And again, it's not like this matters, since the entry said "standard saiyan level". I'm preeeeeeety sure that being the most powerful saiyan alive means you're past "standard".

Why wouldn't he know about a Saiyan stronger than King Vegeta? We only know that King Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan at the time he died. One or ten years before that, a Saiyan stronger than him could have existed.

[RandomGuy96]

Being stronger doesn't make you a greater leader. King Vegeta was described to be a genius strategist, which is important for someone to be a leader. It's possible that he was respected among the Saiyans, as the King, which is why no one stronger than him tried to overthrown him. And even if someone did try to overthrow him by fighting him, he has many followers to team up & take out together the rebel. There are plenty of reasons for King Vegeta to be a King for a time even if he isn't the strongest.

So there was some random saiyan three times stronger than the king, and no one considered it odd? No one tried to take over for themselves? Yeah, sorry. I just can't see that. If that was the case, Freeza wouldn't brag about taking him out.

Actually, King Vegeta was designed by Toriyama, Bardock exists in the manga (and we know he is weaker that King Vegeta from D7), and EoB was originally a manga. King Vegeta being the leader in taking over Planet Plant comes from PtEtS, while filler & Toriyama don't specify when the Saiyans started working with Freeza.

Like I said, they exist, but not as we know them. Bardock, in the context of the manga, was probably weaker than Raditz.

EoB originally being in comic form is irrelevant. It's not part of THE manga.

So, again, it comes down to you counting one special (EoB) while disregarding another.

Why wouldn't he know about a Saiyan stronger than King Vegeta? We only know that King Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan at the time he died. One or ten years before that, a Saiyan stronger than him could have existed.

Because King Vegeta was in charge when Freeza made contact with the saiyans, and as I said above I highly doubt there were saiyans above him- especially by such a large amount.

And again, this is all irrelevant. It doesn't mean that Bardock needed to be over thirty thousand to transform, just that he needed to be above the STANDARD level, in other words, above the likes of Raditz and co. There's nothing wrong with thinking SS Bardock is, say, 4 million (like I presume you have him around), but there's also nothing wrong with thinking he's only 600,000 (like I have him). Neither are facts, and it certainly isn't stated that he HAS to be above 30,000.

Anime Pure Boo(Pure Boo is the strongest in the anime. Despite contradictions lol) vs Base Vegetto

Pure Buu gets crushed, as the statements saying he's weaker than the other Buus outnumber the ones the anime added saying he's stronger. Also, feats also don't lie.

This could be a new topic to create rather than a debate in the "VS" thread.

Probably. I actually created a thread on the minimum SS level a while back, but it didn't get a lot of responses.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So there was some random saiyan three times stronger than the king, and no one considered it odd? No one tried to take over for themselves?

Yeah, because it wouldn't be strange. The Saiyans exist for thousands of years. King Vegeta was described as being a genius strategist, so this could be the main reason he is the King. I mean, Barack Obama isn't the strongest man on US, yet he is the leader of the country. And would someone like Goku (the Super Saiyan 3/God/4) be a good king? Strength has nothing to do with leadership.

Bardock, in the context of the manga, was probably weaker than Raditz.

Says... nothing.

EoB originally being in comic form is irrelevant. It's not part of THE manga.

My point is that it isn't part of the anime.

So, again, it comes down to you counting one special (EoB) while disregarding another.

Because we are talking specifically about the manga & EoB.

And again, this is all irrelevant. It doesn't mean that Bardock needed to be over thirty thousand to transform, just that he needed to be above the STANDARD level, in other words, above the likes of Raditz and co.

And again, this is the average level you are describing.

There's nothing wrong with thinking SS Bardock is, say, 4 million (like I presume you have him around), but there's also nothing wrong with thinking he's only 600,000 (like I have him).

Then why did no one became a Super Saiyan before if being so weak is enough to turn Super Saiyan?