The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:46 pm

Yeah, because it wouldn't be strange. The Saiyans exist for thousands of years. King Vegeta was described as being a genius strategist, so this could be the main reason he is the King. I mean, Barack Obama isn't the strongest man on US, yet he is the leader of the country. And would someone like Goku (the Super Saiyan 3/God/4) be a good king? Strength has nothing to do with leadership.
Barack Obama isn't the leader of what is essentially a super powered barbarian tribe that assigns people into classes based purely on strength.
Says... nothing.
Again, I never said anything said it. I said "probably" based purely on common series trends (kids > parents) and the strength of the average saiyan, which was far below Nappa's 4,000.
My point is that it isn't part of the anime.
Doesn't matter. It's not part of the original work, so it's just as 'canon' as any other spin-off.
And again, this is the average level you are describing.
Standard literally means usual or most common. Why wouldn't someone at ~12,000 be considered "above standard" when the most saiyans were below 4,000?
Then why did no one became a Super Saiyan before if being so weak is enough to turn Super Saiyan?
Because none of them had a tranquil heart. At least, that's what Krillin, Vegeta, and Freeza all suggest.

Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheGmGoken » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:53 pm

Again, I never said anything said it. I said "probably" based purely on common series trends (kids > parents) and the strength of the average saiyan, which was far below Nappa's 4,000.
Goku was stronger than Bardock? Last time I checked that's false. Goku was still in the hundreds. Considering the Chozenshuu places EOB on the timeline along with manga. I'll say that Bardock is still around 10kish.

Lastly didn't Toriyama put Bardock in the manga BECAUSE of the Bardock special(The first one)?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:58 pm

I kind of like the fan-theory that strong emotion contrary to the Saiyan's personality is what's required to trigger the change.

- Goku's normally a happy-go-lucky guy who rarely genuinely hates his opponents... until Freeza killed his best friend before his eyes.
- Vegeta normally thinks he's the best guy around and is confident in himself no matter what... until he finally had to admit his own inferiority and shortcomings.
- Finally, Bardock's normally a self-centered guy who doesn't care what happens to other people... until the people who selflessly helped him despite his nature were put in danger.



Anyway, I agree that this topic has veered the thread a bit too far off-course and would be best having a new thread created for it.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:59 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
Again, I never said anything said it. I said "probably" based purely on common series trends (kids > parents) and the strength of the average saiyan, which was far below Nappa's 4,000.
Goku was stronger than Bardock? Last time I checked that's false. Goku was still in the hundreds. Considering the Chozenshuu places EOB on the timeline along with manga. I'll say that Bardock is still around 10kish.

Lastly didn't Toriyama put Bardock in the manga BECAUSE of the Bardock special(The first one)?
Yeah, he was. He quickly got stronger anyway. If your question was "was he stronger than Bardock when Raditz arrived?" then the answer is we don't know.

Isn't that the anime timeline? Because it also includes GT and two movies.

Yeah, but that doesn't actually confirm its canonicity in any way.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:15 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Barack Obama isn't the leader of what is essentially a super powered barbarian tribe that assigns people into classes based purely on strength.
Yet he gives orders to the US Army. And while they are mainly focused on fighting, it doesn't mean that everything has to do with fighting.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Doesn't matter. It's not part of the original work, so it's just as 'canon' as any other spin-off.
My point is that EoB is unrelated to the anime, not that it is more canon than it. We are talking about the manga & EoB right now, and the anime isn't necessarily connected to any of these two, which means that it can be ignored in out discussion.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Standard literally means usual or most common. Why wouldn't someone at ~12,000 be considered "above standard" when the most saiyans were below 4,000?
How do we know this? All we know about the power of the Saiyans is that they were all weaker than King Vegeta by the time the planet was destroyed, with the highest BP that we know being Bardock's 10.000, and that Vegeta at 18.000 was far stronger than the King. How strong were the Saiyans in general? How strong were they before King Vegeta's death? The reactions of Ginyu, Jheese, and Vegeta seem to suggest that 60.000+ is so unusual, that the Saiyan is considered so impossible, that he must be a Super Saiyan or a mutant.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Because none of them had a tranquil heart. At least, that's what Krillin, Vegeta, and Freeza all suggest.
Well, what does having a "tranquil heart" means? Being pure? Vegeta & Bardock aren't pure. And in the course of a 1.000 years, no one like Vegeta, Bardock, or Goku appeared?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:16 pm

I'll start another thread for this.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheGmGoken » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:17 pm

You guys should really just start a topic about this rather than debating here. You'll most likely get more input from other people.

Anime Boo Arc Yamcha vs Cell Games base Goku
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:22 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:You guys should really just start a topic about this rather than debating here. You'll most likely get more input from other people.

Anime Boo Arc Yamcha vs Cell Games base Goku
Just for my amusement, I actually did attempt to make sense of Yamcha's and Ten's anime feats. This is what I got.

Cell Games:

Goku- 48,000,000
Trunks-32,000,000

Tien- 30,000,000
Yamcha- 25,000,000

Pikkon (suppressed)- 45,000,000
Olibu- 38,000,000

Buu Saga:
Yamcha- 50,000,000
Tien- 60,000,000

I think that, in the anime, they might have taken a trip into the ROSAT before the Cell Games, and again after. So yeah, Goku should win this despite the small disadvantage, due to far superior skills.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kid Buu » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:30 pm

Toei fanwanks Yamcha in filler because he is the human who looks most like Goku.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheGmGoken » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:35 pm

Kid Buu wrote:Toei fanwanks Yamcha in filler because he is the human who looks most like Goku.
That's not fair to Krillin. Krillin(In anime) has Goku type of eyes. And Yamcha is the only human(who fights) that has Hair.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kakashi » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:39 am

Doctor Uiru vs Dodoria
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:07 pm

Kakashi wrote:Doctor Uiru vs Dodoria
Dr. Uiro is around Saiyan arc Vegeta IMO, so Dodoria destroys him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:08 pm

Didn't he overpower kaio-ken x3 Goku?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:12 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Didn't he overpower kaio-ken x3 Goku?
No. He wasn't a beaten up as Vegeta though. If you mean in the clash then yes. Goku was getting beaten
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:29 pm

Oh. Well, I believe Movie 2 Goku is Goku after getting a near death boost from the Vegeta fight. As far as I know, the fight in that movie was basically a repeat of Vegeta vs Goku: Goku loses to his opponent, goes kaio-ken x3 and starts dominating them, and then loses a beam struggle before going kaio-ken x4 and quickly winning it, blasting his enemy into the atmosphere but not killing them. If that's the case, I think that Uiro is exactly as powerful as Dodoria. But since Dodoria is a fat wuss, and seemingly has no skills or abilities beyond basic flight and ki blasts, Uiro should take it fairly easily.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:54 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong since it's been quite some time since I've seen Movie 2... but wasn't Dr. Uiro's power said to be growing even more as he and the heroes took off up into the stratosphere? If so, he may have even pushed all the way up to the Ginyu Force's level of power.

Either way, I agree that he'd beat Dodoria. Quite possibly even transformed Zarbon, too.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kakashi » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:52 pm

Uiru is stronger than Vegeta but weaker yhan Kaio-Ken x3 Goku so Dodoria's level is fine IMO. Also M2 Goku is ths same one who fought Vegeta like over 8,000!!!!!!!!
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:33 am

I just watched the filler episode of the Phantom Saiyans, and Yamcha/Tenshinhan/Chiaotzu/Krillin had a PL of 1507 together.

So the 4 of them; at that strength Vs. Raditz
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:35 am

Kid Buu wrote:I just watched the filler episode of the Phantom Saiyans, and Yamcha/Tenshinhan/Chiaotzu/Krillin had a PL of 1507 together.

So the 4 of them; at that strength Vs. Raditz
How much training had they been doing at that point? That's way above what they were at when Bulma read them with the scouter.

Anyway, Raditz stomps. Teamwork is less effective than having one strong individual. There's not much any of them could do to hurt him.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:44 am

Its six months before Nappa and Vegeta arrive; so about half way?
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