Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Alruneia]

So I guess this thread can be closed now. With February we have a character in the show whose power is Maximum.

I came here to make this very joke. Damn it.
I guess all tier lists have to be updated with "Maximum Tier: Brolyne" at the top now.

[LowRyder2005]

So it's as I've said all along - either the two base interpretation holds true after all or Goku isn't really a God tier fighter until triggering Super Saiyan Blue. Several things have already suggested or hinted at this if you ask me, but now we can definitely say one or the other has been confirmed with this episode.

Agreed. I personally believe that in the anime - by now - it's pretty much supposed to be a solid truth, at least if we wanted to give every pseudo-filler/ main arc the same weight.
I say "supposed" because everything else is a good deal more counter-intuitive than the two options presented above. Extremely so, I'd dare say. And quite ironically to boot.

[HeroR]

So it's as I've said all along - either the two base interpretation holds true after all or Goku isn't really a God tier fighter until triggering Super Saiyan Blue. Several things have already suggested or hinted at this if you ask me, but now we can definitely say one or the other has been confirmed with this episode.

I have to disagree with that since Goku wasn't taking Gohan seriously and both were playing around. Plus, Super Saiyan Gohan from the Resurrection 'F' Saga was about equal to Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan, and first form Freeza put holes through Gohan.

Gohan asked Piccolo to train him again and Gohan is shown training with Piccolo after the events of Frieza's revivial.

I could see someone going for the "post-training Gohan <= Chou Gohan <= post-God training base Goku/ Vegeta" route.
It could possibly be disproved if, next time, we see Gohan using his Chou form again as a superior power-up to Super Saiyan 1/2.

However, if Super Saiyan = X times Chou form, it wouldn't really explain why Gohan used his Chou and not his Super Saiyan form against Beerus in battle of Gods. He could easily transform when it was needed for the ritual, after all. A clever retort could be that Beerus had knocked him out too soon, I guess? I still think it'd be even more confusing if his Chou became the weaker form because of being his regular base.

@HeroR: "Roleplaying" as in "Goku is acting as if Gohan is (not) the Great Saiyaman" is accurate; "roleplaying" as in "Goku goes Super Saiyan but is using 1/10000000000 of his strength" is a whole 'nother thing and as far as I'm concerned an extremely forced account for the events ep. 75 showed us.

How is it forced? Krillin had to tell Goku not to used Super Saiyan against him, which shocked Goku. Krillin had to point out that he needed disadvantages or Goku would kill him.

[LowRyder2005]

So it's as I've said all along - either the two base interpretation holds true after all or Goku isn't really a God tier fighter until triggering Super Saiyan Blue. Several things have already suggested or hinted at this if you ask me, but now we can definitely say one or the other has been confirmed with this episode.

I have to disagree with that since Goku wasn't taking Gohan seriously and both were playing around. Plus, Super Saiyan Gohan from the Resurrection 'F' Saga was about equal to Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan, and first form Freeza put holes through Gohan.

If you are referring to the infamous "comparable to my best" I think Herms himself clarified that Gohan meant to say "best" as in "perfectly healthy", like after taking a Senzu.

[HeroR]

So it's as I've said all along - either the two base interpretation holds true after all or Goku isn't really a God tier fighter until triggering Super Saiyan Blue. Several things have already suggested or hinted at this if you ask me, but now we can definitely say one or the other has been confirmed with this episode.

I have to disagree with that since Goku wasn't taking Gohan seriously and both were playing around. Plus, Super Saiyan Gohan from the Resurrection 'F' Saga was about equal to Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan, and first form Freeza put holes through Gohan.

If you are referring to the infamous "comparable to my best" I think Herms himself clarified that Gohan meant to say "best" as in "perfectly healthy", like after taking a Senzu.

You need to find that reference. And that makes no sense since it was said in the preview for the next episode when Gohan said that Togoma was as comparable at his peak, when he wasn't even tired.

Even then, Gohan's base form was stronger than Piccolo since he was able to pushed Togama back while Piccolo couldn't do a thing and Piccolo is at least as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell.

[LowRyder2005]

So it's as I've said all along - either the two base interpretation holds true after all or Goku isn't really a God tier fighter until triggering Super Saiyan Blue. Several things have already suggested or hinted at this if you ask me, but now we can definitely say one or the other has been confirmed with this episode.

I have to disagree with that since Goku wasn't taking Gohan seriously and both were playing around. Plus, Super Saiyan Gohan from the Resurrection 'F' Saga was about equal to Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan, and first form Freeza put holes through Gohan.

Gohan asked Piccolo to train him again and Gohan is shown training with Piccolo after the events of Frieza's revivial.

I could see someone going for the "post-training Gohan <= Chou Gohan <= post-God training base Goku/ Vegeta" route.
It could possibly be disproved if, next time, we see Gohan using his Chou form again as a superior power-up to Super Saiyan 1/2.

However, if Super Saiyan = X times Chou form, it wouldn't really explain why Gohan used his Chou and not his Super Saiyan form against Beerus in battle of Gods. He could easily transform when it was needed for the ritual, after all. A clever retort could be that Beerus had knocked him out too soon, I guess? I still think it'd be even more confusing if his Chou became the weaker form because of being his regular base.

@HeroR: "Roleplaying" as in "Goku is acting as if Gohan is (not) the Great Saiyaman" is accurate; "roleplaying" as in "Goku goes Super Saiyan but is using 1/10000000000 of his strength" is a whole 'nother thing and as far as I'm concerned an extremely forced account for the events ep. 75 showed us.

How is it forced? Krillin had to tell Goku not to used Super Saiyan against him, which shocked Goku. Krillin had to point out that he needed disadvantages or Goku would kill him.

Do I really need to explain myself further on how I find it forced....? How does "Goku goes Super Saiyan but is using 1/10000000000 of his strength" feel less forced than "he could've just stayed in base, fighting Gohan evenly still" to you? I mean, what would be your rationale?
The exchange between Goku and Krillin ended up reinforcing my idea that Goku has trouble taking things easy. If anything it would reinforce my belief that Goku was taking his adversaries up to that point pretty darn seriously. That or the fact that he overestimated Krillin's strength, or most likely both.

You need to find that reference. And that makes no sense since it was said in the preview for the next episode when Gohan said that Togoma was as comparable at his peak, when he wasn't even tired.

Even then, Gohan's base form was stronger than Piccolo since he was able to pushed Togama back while Piccolo couldn't do a thing and Piccolo is at least as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell.

That's not really a stated fact, and I'd tend to see it at as simple plothole anyway even if it happened to be the case. I may think Gohan was using a little of his Chou power, that Tagoma was going easier on Gohan, that the problem was that Piccolo was using his weights, or that Piccolo was more tired than Gohan for some reason (his weights/ his weights and fighting more people/ yadda yadda yadda); all are valid options in which Gohan's base is not stronger than Piccolo in the way you're presenting it here. Gohan simply performs better than Piccolo, though, that's true enough.

Regarding the "peak" part, I'm again pretty sure that Herms or a perfectly valid translator clarified that Gohan meant to say that if he wasn't injured/tired he could've fought Tagoma on equal terms. Preview or not is a non-factor here if the translation is the same. Gohan's Super Saiyan being as strong as he was as in his Ultimate/Chou by default could be a valid personal interpretation, nevertheless.
That being said I would encourage someone else to find the translation (or even better, the original term in ROF); I've got some horrible microeconomics for business and finance books to go back to. Toodaloo to all power-junkies, keep the discussions rolling.

[ZombieVito]

Nah I still don't think it's a thing. Over 70 episodes and still no explanation even though it would have taken 30 seconds to explain it?

I think it's all just really bad writing to be honest. In the Resurrection F saga Super Saiyan Gohan stood no chance against Frieza in his first form while Base Goku was stronger than him in his Final Form so hundreds of times stronger.

Goku trains really hard for several years worth. Gohan doesn't train that much and is much weaker than his old Mystic self.

And yet Super Saiyan Gohan can fight on par with Super Saiyan Goku.....that doesn't make sense even with the two base theory.

Saying there was a retcon doesn't make sense because it was implied that Base Future Trunks is stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks and that was only in the last saga.

Sure it can. My secondary list has this with no issues.

[Marlowe89]

I have to disagree with that since Goku wasn't taking Gohan seriously and both were playing around.

No, it's absolutely clear from the the dialogue and the general direction of the scene that Goku ceased to hold back the moment he transformed into a Super Saiyan. Of course he wasn't using his full full power considering that he opted for the first Super Saiyan form as opposed to 2, 3 or Blue, but the scene is incredibly unambiguous about both Goku and Gohan eventually becoming serious in that sparring match.

I think people need to start accepting these situations exactly as they're conveyed instead of trying to twist things around to fit their preconceptions. That's obviously a flawed way of approaching the series.

[HeroR]

So it's as I've said all along - either the two base interpretation holds true after all or Goku isn't really a God tier fighter until triggering Super Saiyan Blue. Several things have already suggested or hinted at this if you ask me, but now we can definitely say one or the other has been confirmed with this episode.

I have to disagree with that since Goku wasn't taking Gohan seriously and both were playing around. Plus, Super Saiyan Gohan from the Resurrection 'F' Saga was about equal to Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan, and first form Freeza put holes through Gohan.

I could see someone going for the "post-training Gohan <= Chou Gohan <= post-God training base Goku/ Vegeta" route.
It could possibly be disproved if, next time, we see Gohan using his Chou form again as a superior power-up to Super Saiyan 1/2.

However, if Super Saiyan = X times Chou form, it wouldn't really explain why Gohan used his Chou and not his Super Saiyan form against Beerus in battle of Gods. He could easily transform when it was needed for the ritual, after all. A clever retort could be that Beerus had knocked him out too soon, I guess? I still think it'd be even more confusing if his Chou became the weaker form because of being his regular base.

@HeroR: "Roleplaying" as in "Goku is acting as if Gohan is (not) the Great Saiyaman" is accurate; "roleplaying" as in "Goku goes Super Saiyan but is using 1/10000000000 of his strength" is a whole 'nother thing and as far as I'm concerned an extremely forced account for the events ep. 75 showed us.

How is it forced? Krillin had to tell Goku not to used Super Saiyan against him, which shocked Goku. Krillin had to point out that he needed disadvantages or Goku would kill him.

Do I really need to explain myself further on how I find it forced....? How does "Goku goes Super Saiyan but is using 1/10000000000 of his strength" feel less forced than "he could've just stayed in base, fighting Gohan evenly still" to you? I mean, what would be your rationale?

You need to find that reference. And that makes no sense since it was said in the preview for the next episode when Gohan said that Togoma was as comparable at his peak, when he wasn't even tired.

Even then, Gohan's base form was stronger than Piccolo since he was able to pushed Togama back while Piccolo couldn't do a thing and Piccolo is at least as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell.

That's not really a stated fact. I may think Gohan was using a little of his Chou power, that the problem was that Piccolo was using his weights, or that Piccolo was more tired than Gohan for some reason (his weights/ his weights and fighting more people/ yadda yadda yadda); all are valid options in which Gohan's base is not stronger than Piccolo in the way you're presenting it here.

Regarding the "peak" part, I'm again pretty sure that Herms or a perfectly valid translator clarified that Gohan meant to say that if he wasn't injured/tired he could've fought Tagoma on equal terms. Preview or not is a non-factor here if the translation is the same. Gohan's Super Saiyan being as strong as he was as in his Ultimate/Chou by default could be a valid personal interpretation, nevertheless.
That being said I would encourage someone else to find the translation (or even better, the original term in ROF); I've got some horrible microeconomics for business and finance to go back to. Toodaloo to all power-junkies, keep the discussions rolling.

And I repeat myself, Krillin told Goku not to go Super Saiyan during their sparring match despite it being completely overkill. Goku was shocked by the restriction, which basically means, 'why can't I used my super-powered transformation during a friendly match'.

It was never said Piccolo was tired and even Piccolo with weights would be around or stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. And that is way the show presented it. Tagoma no sold a punch from Piccolo and snapped his arm off. Gohan pushed him back with an energy attack. Gohan was also able to take hits, dodged, and parry Ginyu-Tagoma in his base form. All evidences show that base form Gohan was stronger than Piccolo by a noticeably amount.

It was said in a preview after Gohan got a Senzu from being shot by Tagoma. So what sense would that make for Gohan to say that Tagoma surpassed his peak if he only had to say that Tagoma is equal to him?

In either case, Gohan is stronger than Piccolo who should be at least on the level of Semi-Perfect Cell. He went Super Saiyan which is a 50x multiplier from that. That form of Gohan got tortured with eased by first form Freeza and Goku fought final form Freeza who only got hits in because he attacked Goku's friends. Meaning Goku's base form was much, much stronger than that Gohan. So Goku's base is extremely powerful.

I have to disagree with that since Goku wasn't taking Gohan seriously and both were playing around.

No, it's absolutely clear from the the dialogue and the general direction of the scene that Goku ceased to hold back the moment he transformed into a Super Saiyan. Of course he wasn't using his full full power considering that he opted for the first Super Saiyan form as opposed to 2, 3 or Blue, but the scene is incredibly unambiguous about both Goku and Gohan eventually becoming serious in that sparring match.

I think people need to start accepting these situations exactly as they're conveyed instead of trying to twist things around to fit their preconceptions. That's obviously a flawed way of approaching the series.

What are you basing that on? Especially when Goku is saying stuff like calling Gohan the Great Saiyaman. Neither one of them were being serious, which is the context in the scene.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

My guess is that Gohan's training with Piccolo brought him near Goku's level, like Piccolo came close to base Goku's level.

[Bullza]

Yeah Herms did say that "Peak" in that regard wasn't actually referring to his all time peak which would have been Mystic Gohan but more so that it meant if Gohan were at full strenght at the time as opposed to being tired and injured.

Gohan said that Tagoma was comparable to him but that was prior to Ginyu taking over his body and then bringing out his full power.

[Marlowe89]

What are you basing that on? Especially when Goku is saying stuff like calling Gohan the Great Saiyaman. Neither one of them were being serious, which is the context in the scene.

Goku calling Gohan the Great Saiyaman doesn't remotely imply that he wasn't fighting seriously, especially when Goku himself admitted otherwise when he said he got carried away. It just means he was going along with Gohan's self-identification as the Great Saiyaman.

The whole context of the scene was that both characters were taking the gloves off, getting into the fight and not being at all aware of the destruction they were causing in the process.

[LowRyder2005]

@HeroR: I'm sorry, but I agree with Marlowe89 in the sense that you'd need to stop acting so defensive about some of your theories to have a healthy discussion, and especially stop presenting them as unshakeable facts. I can see you've put thought when coming to your own conclusion, but bear in mind: there's a fine line between "expressing an opinion" and arguing on "what the opinions of other people should be".

About the Gohan/ Piccolo idea, the fact that "it wasn't stated" wouldn't really disprove my point, right? Saying something is "not proven" is not a valid counter-argument when someone is simply presenting possibilities. Because, well, I'm not arguing any one of them is the truth. Just that they could be. You said Piccolo had to be stronger than Gohan; I simply showed you there was room for other theories, which you can freely agree or disagree with. "Possible" evidence is not the same as conclusive evidence and in this case it's a simple matter of opinions and personal inclinations. I mean, Piccolo keeping his cape during the whole fight could be "evidence" that he was doomed to perform poorly and tire himself much, much more than normal according to me but not according to you. And vice versa for some of your statements.

Regarding Goku vs. Krillin, I still can't see your point or how it's supposed to bring credibility to the claim that Goku was using 1/millionth of his Super Saiyan power after transforming. Because that's the only thing that can save Gohan from an instant knockout or certain death here. In a later edit to the post you quoted, I said that - when I read it - it simply reinforced my belief that Goku has a hard time taking things less seriously when it comes to sparring with someone even if he's sparring against someone clearly weaker than him.

Yeah Herms did say that "Peak" in that regard wasn't actually referring to his all time peak which would have been Mystic Gohan but more so that it meant if Gohan were at full strenght at the time as opposed to being tired and injured.

Gohan said that Tagoma was comparable to him but that was prior to Ginyu taking over his body and then bringing out his full power.

Thanks for the heads-up!

[ZombieVito]

My guess is that Gohan's training with Piccolo brought him near Goku's level, like Piccolo came close to base Goku's level.

Possible but then how do you explain Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan?

[HeroR]

Goku calling Gohan the Great Saiyaman doesn't remotely imply that he wasn't fighting seriously, especially when Goku himself admitted otherwise when he said he got carried away. It just means he was going along with Gohan's self-identification as the Great Saiyaman.

The whole context of the scene was that both characters were taking the gloves off, getting into the fight and not being at all aware of the destruction they were causing in the process.

Goku can get carry away and still hold back. Otherwise, why would Krillin tell Goku not to go Super Saiyan, which shocks Goku.

The context was that Goku and Gohan were having a good time and not being completely serious. Things got heated up and the field got destroyed. For example, Goku and Beerus nearly destroy the planet when they fought in Episode 42, and neither one of them were remotely going all out.

[Marlowe89]

Goku can get carry away and still hold back.

Goku going Super Saiyan was a specific response to Gohan's complaint that he was holding back.

I don't know what else to tell you. The scene's context is about as obvious as it can possibly get in portraying a no-holds-barred sparring match between Goku and Gohan. The former isn't going to be restraining his strength to a minuscule fraction of his overall power for a particular form if he's getting into the fight to the degree that he's getting carried away and being completely unaware of his own surroundings. That makes absolutely no sense at all and I can't help but find it a bit bizarre that you're trying so hard to fight this.

Just accept what happened and move on.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Could the Goku vs. Gohan Fight answer questions?

In DBSuper Episode 75 we see Goku fighting a much weakened Gohan.

Super Saiyan Gohan keeps up with Goku in his Super Saiyan form.

This makes me think that SS Goku is not around SSGod level.

We can confidently say that Gohan has not been training to get up to SSGod level, and we can confidently say Gohan was matching Goku.

What do you guys think?

[HeroR]

Goku can get carry away and still hold back.

Goku going Super Saiyan was a specific response to Gohan's complaint that he was holding back.

I don't know what else to tell you. The scene's context is about as obvious as it can possibly get in portraying a no-holds-barred sparring match between Goku and Gohan. The former isn't going to be restraining his strength to a minuscule fraction of his overall power for a particular form if he's getting into the fight to the degree that he's getting carried away and being completely unaware of his own surroundings. That makes absolutely no sense at all and I can't help but find it a bit bizarre that you're trying so hard to fight this.

Just accept what happened and move on.

Goku going Super Saiyan doesn't mean he was going all out. The context doesn't really show a no-holds-barred sparring match. The fight between Goku and Beerus when he was dressed as Monaka was closer to no-holds-barred sparring match since those two nearly destroyed the planet and Whis had to personally stopped them because they were getting carried away. Goku and Gohan barely destroyed a field.

Given that Beerus with no effect two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku, how much do you think Beerus was holding back during their sparring match for Goku to take hits?

[buutenks]

This pretty much backs up my own powerscaling. Aka, that Base saiyans and ssj1-3 Goku and Vegeta are below ssg and only ssgss is above ssg.

Basically Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, Goku and Vegeta(no god forms) are Buuhan-ssj Vegetto(buu saga) level.

[HeroR]

This pretty much backs up my own powerscaling. Aka, that Base saiyans and ssj1-3 Goku and Vegeta are below ssg and only ssgss is above ssg.

Basically Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, Goku and Vegeta(no god forms) are Buuhan-ssj Vegetto(buu saga) level.

So how was Goku able to keep fighting Beerus as a normal Super Saiyan after losing Super Saiyan God and Beerus even said that Goku absorbed the power of godhood.