Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[GoKu.SaMa]

How many times are you going to post that video? Which by the way we've already said multiple times that Superman from the animated series is weak. Oh and that video proves nothing about Superman compared to the Flash.

1. It was 40 tons and 4,000 times 40tons is 160,000tons which is the weight of a large building but no where near as much as very large buildings. So I'm not seeing a problem since it doesn't seem like lifting strength goes up with power levels at a even rate, notice that base Goku had a power level at least in the millions and struggled with 40tons (or even 400tons if you prefer). Heck you could easily say that the problem is that GT made him to strong and that him lifting a building that big is being generous. But this really doesn't matter because even if it was 400 tons and even if Goku was 4,000,000,000,000,000 times as strong his physical strength is still no where near Superman's shown feats.

2. I don't know what to tell you. Its there, its Countdown 48 Death Of A New God, May 30, 2007.

4. I already explained why they might not sense Superman's power. The Z fighters have shown that they can sense ki, the androids and Superman are not powered by Ki, the androids power is artificial and Superman's is from the Sun. And so what if Goku notices Superman's speed increasing, like I said if we are going to base speed off of math then Superman at full speed would be at the sun in nearly a instant and theres no way Goku could stop him which also doesn't matter because Superman wouldn't need to Sun dip.

Sorry i meant this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBXSoajMi1s

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1-I don't think that building's wight is 160,000 tons , under x10 gravity it's 400 tons not 40 .

4-If superman's power source was the sun then we can say that Goku can't sense his energy but unfortunately it's not .

1 - Well what do you think that building weighed?
- We don't know what the gravity on that planet was and they didn't say "give him 40 earth tons not adjusted to this gravity so that he ends up with 400tons" they said "40 tons". And it still wouldn't matter if it was 400tons or even 400,000,000 tons, he still wouldn't be showing anything near Superman strength.
- And how strong do you think Goku is?

4 - Superman's power source is the sun... So I'm guessing you mean that since he stores the energy then Goku could sense it. Maybe he can but then again its not Ki and Goku has never sensed non-ki power from people since he couldn't sense modified human powers so it would make sense for him not to sense Superman's power either.

Like I said you can use just feats or you can do the math, either way Superman is faster and stronger... by a lot.

1-I don't know ,but less than 6000 tons for sure .

Yes they did .

I will talk about Goku's strength later .

4-So superman is nothing without the sun ?

[valfranx]

Ah, you're making a common mistake. You assume that Cell is targeting the sun. imagine our solar system as a field of baseball,the planets are grains dust, sun is the baseball, you destroy the ball, more not destroyed the field baseball

You continue to be wrong in new and fascinating ways. Maybe you should stop.

Actually you is committing the same mistake from our friend. mistaking the fact that the sun have most of the mass of the solar system with the sun have the same radius of the area of the solar system, which is even larger than a VY Canis Majoris.




in other words destroy our solar system is as destroy many stars VY Canis Majoris . soon cell=multi-buster VY Canis Majoris.

VY Canis Majoris:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2CaWqXMS-4


The Solar System also contains a number of regions populated by smaller objects. The asteroid belt, which lies between Mars and Jupiter, is similar to the terrestrial planets as it mostly contains objects composed of rock and metal. Beyond Neptune's orbit lie the Kuiper belt and scattered disc; linked populations of trans-Neptunian objects composed mostly of ices. Within these populations, several dozen to more than ten thousand objects may be large enough to have been rounded by their own gravity.[9] Such objects are referred to as dwarf planets. Identified dwarf planets include the asteroid Ceres and the trans-Neptunian objects Pluto, Eris, Haumea, and Makemake. In addition to these two regions, various other small-body populations including comets, centaurs and interplanetary dust freely travel between regions. Six of the planets, at least three of the dwarf planets, and many of the smaller bodies are orbited by natural satellites,[c] usually termed "moons" after Earth's Moon. Each of the outer planets is encircled by planetary rings of dust and other small objects.
The solar wind, a flow of plasma from the Sun, creates a bubble in the interstellar medium known as the heliosphere, which extends out to the edge of the scattered disc. The Oort cloud, which is believed to be the source for long-period comets, may also exist at a distance roughly a thousand times further than the heliosphere.

[Rocketman]

Don't presume to lecture me on the solar system, boy.

The solar system is entirely a construction of the Sun's gravity. If the Sun were to vanish, the system would cease to exist.

[dario03]

By your logic, Goku, after Namek, should be fast enough to travel from where he landed on Earth to Kame House in seconds, without teleporting. None of the characters believe this is possible. Moreover, if his speed kept increasing from there the way you think it should, everyone would be able to get anywhere on Earth in less than a second. No one ever displays that much speed, even when they're trying to get somewhere in a hurry

Will that proves that my calcs are almost right .

Vegeta said that Goku went to Kame House and get back by using his speed without teleporting , so that means Goku can go to Kame House and get back in less than 1 without using SSJ (using 2% of his full power) and that means 20000 km/s and that means Goku's full speed(at that time) was 1000000 km/s and that means he was more than 33 times faster than the light and that's even faster than what i expected .

You have the order of events backwards, Vegeta did not say Goku went to Kame house and got back by using his speed without teleporting. Vegeta said that Goku was using super speed to trick them and theeennnnn Goku showed them Roshi's glasses which shocked everybody including Vegeta.

[1 - Well what do you think that building weighed?
- We don't know what the gravity on that planet was and they didn't say "give him 40 earth tons not adjusted to this gravity so that he ends up with 400tons" they said "40 tons". And it still wouldn't matter if it was 400tons or even 400,000,000 tons, he still wouldn't be showing anything near Superman strength.
- And how strong do you think Goku is?

4 - Superman's power source is the sun... So I'm guessing you mean that since he stores the energy then Goku could sense it. Maybe he can but then again its not Ki and Goku has never sensed non-ki power from people since he couldn't sense modified human powers so it would make sense for him not to sense Superman's power either.

Like I said you can use just feats or you can do the math, either way Superman is faster and stronger... by a lot.

1-I don't know ,but less than 6000 tons for sure .

Yes they did .

I will talk about Goku's strength later .

4-So superman is nothing without the sun ?

1 - Well nobody really knows what that building would have weighed but I think 6000 tons is a very low guess. The 555ft (170m) high washington monument weighs 80,000-90,000 tons and the Empire state building is 370,000 tons and while that building in GT didn't look as big as the Empire state it didn't look 1/60th the size.

- When?

- Well I would like to see how strong you think he is, I think you've already said that you would discuss Goku later a couple of times now.

4 - Ummm did you watch the death battle video or anything to do with Superman that has been made in the last ~60 years??? Yes Superman without a (non-red) sun is a normal Kryptonian which isn't much different than a normal human (hes been depicted like that for a very long time and all of post crisis). He doesn't lose his powers instantly if he isn't in sunlight but if he is away from it for a while he does (like everything with Superman it varies but without something de powering him it would probably take weeks for him to lose his powers).

[valfranx]

Not to mention, given what Cell's attack looked like, it would have to hit the sun to destroy the solar system unless he somehow winded it through the planets one by one. He never actually said that particular attack would destroy the solar system, just that he gathered the requisite power for it to pack that much punch. Meaning that he could do it if he were trying to, as in if he were aiming for the sun instead of Gohan. It was a frame of reference, not a declaration that the solar system itself was in danger (unless the sun was actually in Cell's path). It's like saying "this rifle could kill a moose." That doesn't mean a moose is going to drop dead whenever you pull the trigger.

This is the beam Cell was struggling against that ultimately killed him:


This is Superman's heat vision:


It's not even close. Not even a little bit. Not in any way that doesn't require a ridiculous amount of willful blindness.

try again.

goku ssj1 already created an explosion that covers the sun in the fifth movie, which destroyed the outer layer of the sun. feat of the super with the HV, is not close this.

or this:

Superman can destroy a planet with heat vision because he heated up a planet with heat vision



This is just out of context. The showing people are referring to is from Adventures of Superman #620. In this comic (the plot of which, coincidentally, is as much of a mess as JLA #77), a celestial body called Cannibal Planet flies toward the sun, which causes the earth to lose solar heat and assume frigid temperatures around the globe. Superman flies to the sun to stop the Cannibal Planet, and then, to remedy the problem of lack of heat, he fires his heat vision at the earth to resume its normal temperature. Why is this out of context when placed in a battle thread? Two reasons: Number 1, Superman was sun-amped. He flew right at the sun to deal with the Cannibal Planet which crested itself on the sun's surface. Being that close to the sun, Superman's powers would be increased. Number 2, this is not a combat feat. Superman is heating up the planet, yes, but what function does that serve in a battle setting? His heat vision doesn't even cause damage to the earth, because the purpose is to reset the global temperatures. There is even a page of the Candidate standing in the rays of Superman's heat vision completely unfazed. All Superman did here was basically act as a surrogate sun for a brief period. No one and nothing was harmed; so why is this even mentioned in battle threads? An amped Superman not destroying anything with his heat vision is a useless showing to bring up in battle settings, and it lends no credence to the theory that he could destroy a planet with HV.

[TonyTheTiger]

I love how posting a screenshot from the actual Dragon Ball Z is met with "try again." I really love it. Like I'm the one who's making things up.

Also, stop linking nonsense. That "article" is silly because it's so literal minded. "He heats up the Earth, sure, but what good is that in a battle?" Really? Because if I could heat up the Earth with my eyes I think I'd probably win a lot of fights. It's called extrapolation. We've never seen Goku destroy a planet, either, but you don't see people running around saying Goku's never done it so therefore he can't.

Put that feat with this one:



They can't measure how hot it is. The sun's temperature, on the other hand, has been measured. And, ya know, the sun's heat can annihilate the Earth. So we've got a guy who can fully engulf the planet with his heat vision and has heat vision hotter than the sun. Put two and two together.

Or, hell, just be consistent. If you want to get all context sensitive about Superman's heat vision, then why are you posting a random gif from Movie 8 out of context, devoid of all possible explanations for why it isn't as awesome as it appears? It's like "hey, guys, Superman's heat vision covered the Earth but it's not really as great as it seems because X, Y, and Z. Oh, but here's this short animation of Broly destroying a galaxy."

[valfranx]

Don't presume to lecture me on the solar system, boy.

The solar system is entirely a construction of the Sun's gravity. If the Sun were to vanish, the system would cease to exist.

solar system = several VY Canis Majoris

the sun / blue star small stars near one VY Canis Majoris.

Conclusion: star busters of level differents.

[Hellspawn28]

The whole galaxy thing in DBZ Movie 8 was done in a unspecified time frame. Not to mention the galaxy was still there since you can see stars in the background.

[Bussani]

Then how did they knew that Goku is 2.3 times faster than the light ?

I believe they came to that conclusion by applying the transformation multipliers to his speed. I should mention that, like a lot of their calculations, I don't agree with that--but I disagree with them for somewhat different reasons from yours.

They went off of feats and feats alone. Saying "Goku got this much strong so he must be this much faster" results in crazy figures that don't fit the feats. To me, this suggests that a linear progression in speed is the wrong way to look at it. Perhaps, like in real life, it's more complicated than that, and the increases in speed actually become smaller and smaller the faster the characters get.

The first time i did the math i was depending on numbers from real life , but the second time i did the math depending on the Snake Road .

I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

If we can't use numbers then we can't discuss about this , because that's the only way to know who is stronger .

You can use numbers without relying on battle powers and linear multiplications. You can use numbers if they fit with the story. All I'm saying is that I'm not going to agree with numbers that don't fit.

Will that proves that my calcs are almost right .

Vegeta said that Goku went to Kame House and get back by using his speed without teleporting , so that means Goku can go to Kame House and get back in less than 1 without using SSJ (using 2% of his full power) and that means 20000 km/s and that means Goku's full speed(at that time) was 1000000 km/s and that means he was more than 33 times faster than the light and that's even faster than what i expected .

Like dario03 said, you've got it backwards. Vegeta first thought that Goku had used speed to disappear and reappear, but when everyone pointed out that he'd travelled 10,000 kilometers, he had to admit to himself that it really was teleportation.

And like I said, there are other examples of even stronger characters flying to some place on Earth in a hurry and not getting there in under a second, which makes them many, many times slower than light.

Actually you is committing the same mistake from our friend. mistaking the fact that the sun have most of the mass of the solar system with the sun have the same radius of the area of the solar system, which is even larger than a VY Canis Majoris.

[ ]

in other words destroy our solar system is as destroy many stars VY Canis Majoris .

You can't say: "it has the same radius, so it's the same." Destroying something doesn't mean engulfing it in an attack of a certain radius.

Ummm did you watch the death battle video or anything to do with Superman that has been made in the last ~60 years??? Yes Superman without a (non-red) sun is a normal Kryptonian which isn't much different than a normal human (hes been depicted like that for a very long time and all of post crisis). He doesn't lose his powers instantly if he isn't in sunlight but if he is away from it for a while he does (like everything with Superman it varies but without something de powering him it would probably take weeks for him to lose his powers).

As an example, in recent comics, Superman bench pressed the equivalent weight of Earth for five days straight without being exposed to sunlight--and he only stopped because he had other things to do. Superman's stored up energy doesn't run out easily. Frankly, even without the Sun, I think his stamina would last far longer than Goku's would.

He never actually said that particular attack would destroy the solar system, just that he gathered the requisite power for it to pack that much punch. Meaning that he could do it if he were trying to, as in if he were aiming for the sun instead of Gohan. It was a frame of reference, not a declaration that the solar system itself was in danger (unless the sun was actually in Cell's path). It's like saying "this rifle could kill a moose." That doesn't mean a moose is going to drop dead whenever you pull the trigger.

I like that analogy.

[SaiyanZ]

Ehhhhh, I'm iffy on Supes's heat vision. We do know its hotter than the Sun, but in terms of D.C. (minus that defrosting Earth) I can't see it overpowering Goku's ki attacks. It would depend on how much exposure he has to the Sun. I remember reading something about having 12 Daxamites to destroy a planet with their heat vision. For those who don't know, Daxamites are essentially nomadic Kryptonians.

[dario03]

Yeah the force behind Supes heat vision isn't usually that high or we can't really tell if it is so I'm not sure if it would clash well with a beam from Goku, but then again maybe it would just pierce through it...who knows...

But the crazy thing is that in real life man has measured temps in the trillions of degrees. The current record is 4,000,000,000,000C (7,200,000,000,000F) and they think they've made hotter but it hasn't been confirmed yet. And usually comic book science is more advance than real science so if they couldn't measure Superman's heat vision then it could be pretty freaking hot.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/2 ... 28283.html

[SSJRyu1]

Don't presume to lecture me on the solar system, boy.

The solar system is entirely a construction of the Sun's gravity. If the Sun were to vanish, the system would cease to exist.

Well it is true that the Sun holds the planets in there orbit, at the same time Cell does say that he had the power to "not only to destroy the planet, but the whole Solar system" This to me would mean that the size of the blast would engulf not only the sun but all the way out to Earth and the rest of the planets as well since he specifically mentions destroying "the planet" in his Solar system attack.

[TonyTheTiger]

What blast, though? There wasn't a blast. That's why the whole idea of an explosion engulfing the entire solar system makes no sense to me. It was a beam, and an incredibly small one in comparison to the scale we're talking about. If such a "blast" were going to do that kind of damage why didn't Gohan's? They were firing the exact same attack at each other and Gohan's was even more powerful in the end. Had Cell won the exchange there's no reason to assume it would have ended any differently than:


Screw Attack measured SSJ2 Goku's Ki output at 867 quintillion MT. I'm not sure if that's enough power to destroy the sun. But if it isn't, because of Cell's statement, I'm willing to accept that they possibly undershot Goku's energy output on the grounds that Cell and SSJ2 Gohan were outputting whatever power it takes to do that (which is itself a lot of freakin' power, mind you). But that's all I'm willing to accept. Because there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that they were shooting off significantly more than that. Cell said he gathered enough power to destroy the solar system. Destroying the sun does destroy the solar system. That's irrefutable. And since we have to hold ourselves to what is provable and only provable, I don't see how we can jump to any other conclusions. There just isn't enough evidence to say that they were firing any more power than it takes to blow up our sun.

But, either way, it's not going to make enough of a difference to overcome the vast disparity when put up against Superman's numbers. Basically it's all moot. Maybe they underestimated Goku. But you know what? They definitely underestimated Superman (ex: they disregarded Coldcast's statement). In the end, no matter how you slice it Goku just can't match Clark's numbers. The durability rating alone makes Superman nigh unkillable under ordinary circumstances. A bit of an advantage in a Death Battle, right?

[Nex Carnifex]

You think they'll do a rematch with the new Super Saiyan God lol

[Saiga]

Doubtful. I don't think we'll get an official multiplier for Super Saiyan God (at least not right off the bat), so it won't help change Goku's existing feats, and I doubt we'll get any new feats that can be measured.

[TheMightyOzaru]

What blast, though? There wasn't a blast. That's why the whole idea of an explosion engulfing the entire solar system makes no sense to me. It was a beam, and an incredibly small one in comparison to the scale we're talking about. If such a "blast" were going to do that kind of damage why didn't Gohan's? They were firing the exact same attack at each other and Gohan's was even more powerful in the end. Had Cell won the exchange there's no reason to assume it would have ended any differently than:


Screw Attack measured SSJ2 Goku's Ki output at 867 quintillion MT. I'm not sure if that's enough power to destroy the sun. But if it isn't, because of Cell's statement, I'm willing to accept that they possibly undershot Goku's energy output on the grounds that Cell and SSJ2 Gohan were outputting whatever power it takes to do that (which is itself a lot of freakin' power, mind you). But that's all I'm willing to accept. Because there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that they were shooting off significantly more than that. Cell said he gathered enough power to destroy the solar system. Destroying the sun does destroy the solar system. That's irrefutable. And since we have to hold ourselves to what is provable and only provable, I don't see how we can jump to any other conclusions. There just isn't enough evidence to say that they were firing any more power than it takes to blow up our sun.

But, either way, it's not going to make enough of a difference to overcome the vast disparity when put up against Superman's numbers. Basically it's all moot. Maybe they underestimated Goku. But you know what? They definitely underestimated Superman (ex: they disregarded Coldcast's statement). In the end, no matter how you slice it Goku just can't match Clark's numbers. The durability rating alone makes Superman nigh unkillable under ordinary circumstances. A bit of an advantage in a Death Battle, right?

We have pretty much official confirmation that Cell can destroy at the very least our sun. It's in Herm's translation of SSJ Grade 5. Screwattacks methods of seeing how powerful, durable, strong, and fast he is are all based on some gravity formula that is highly fallible. That aside though, what would likely happen is Cell would just destroy the Sun. The beam size of Gohan's attack is a non point since you have to manipulate the Ki to grow and such. Gohan isn't focusing on destroying the solar system, neither is Cell really since he would just incinerate himself if he blew up the sun. Cell is merely implying he has enough power to destroy it not that he will destroy it. As for how much power it would take to destroy the sun, it would require a bare minimum of about 165 Septillion Megatons.

[GoKu.SaMa]

By your logic, Goku, after Namek, should be fast enough to travel from where he landed on Earth to Kame House in seconds, without teleporting. None of the characters believe this is possible. Moreover, if his speed kept increasing from there the way you think it should, everyone would be able to get anywhere on Earth in less than a second. No one ever displays that much speed, even when they're trying to get somewhere in a hurry

Will that proves that my calcs are almost right .

Vegeta said that Goku went to Kame House and get back by using his speed without teleporting , so that means Goku can go to Kame House and get back in less than 1 without using SSJ (using 2% of his full power) and that means 20000 km/s and that means Goku's full speed(at that time) was 1000000 km/s and that means he was more than 33 times faster than the light and that's even faster than what i expected .

You have the order of events backwards, Vegeta did not say Goku went to Kame house and got back by using his speed without teleporting. Vegeta said that Goku was using super speed to trick them and theeennnnn Goku showed them Roshi's glasses which shocked everybody including Vegeta.

[1 - Well what do you think that building weighed?
- We don't know what the gravity on that planet was and they didn't say "give him 40 earth tons not adjusted to this gravity so that he ends up with 400tons" they said "40 tons". And it still wouldn't matter if it was 400tons or even 400,000,000 tons, he still wouldn't be showing anything near Superman strength.
- And how strong do you think Goku is?

4 - Superman's power source is the sun... So I'm guessing you mean that since he stores the energy then Goku could sense it. Maybe he can but then again its not Ki and Goku has never sensed non-ki power from people since he couldn't sense modified human powers so it would make sense for him not to sense Superman's power either.

Like I said you can use just feats or you can do the math, either way Superman is faster and stronger... by a lot.

1-I don't know ,but less than 6000 tons for sure .

Yes they did .

I will talk about Goku's strength later .

4-So superman is nothing without the sun ?

1 - Well nobody really knows what that building would have weighed but I think 6000 tons is a very low guess. The 555ft (170m) high washington monument weighs 80,000-90,000 tons and the Empire state building is 370,000 tons and while that building in GT didn't look as big as the Empire state it didn't look 1/60th the size.

- When?

- Well I would like to see how strong you think he is, I think you've already said that you would discuss Goku later a couple of times now.

4 - Ummm did you watch the death battle video or anything to do with Superman that has been made in the last ~60 years??? Yes Superman without a (non-red) sun is a normal Kryptonian which isn't much different than a normal human (hes been depicted like that for a very long time and all of post crisis). He doesn't lose his powers instantly if he isn't in sunlight but if he is away from it for a while he does (like everything with Superman it varies but without something de powering him it would probably take weeks for him to lose his powers).

vegeta was shocked by the teleporting technique

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1- this building's weight is 6000 tons.



-I will talk about that after we know who is faster .

4-I don't understand , but still Goku can prevent him from reaching the sun .

[GoKu.SaMa]

Bussani

I believe they came to that conclusion by applying the transformation multipliers to his speed. I should mention that, like a lot of their calculations, I don't agree with that--but I disagree with them for somewhat different reasons from yours.

SSJ = Base form x 50

SSJ2=SSJ X 2

SSJ3=SSJ2 X 4

SSJ4=SSJ3 X 10

That means when Goku start using the SSJ4 he double his speed and strength 4000 times , and that is almost the same thing i'm saying .

You can use numbers without relying on battle powers and linear multiplications. You can use numbers if they fit with the story. All I'm saying is that I'm not going to agree with numbers that don't fit.

Numbers like ??

And like I said, there are other examples of even stronger characters flying to some place on Earth in a hurry and not getting there in under a second, which makes them many, many times slower than light.

Other strong characters like ??

[dario03]

vegeta was shocked by the teleporting technique

--------------

1- this building's weight is 6000 tons.



-I will talk about that after we know who is faster .

4-I don't understand , but still Goku can prevent him from reaching the sun .

Yeah Vegeta was shocked by a technique that let Goku move so fast. If Goku could have made that trip with pure speed then the technique wouldn't be shocking to Vegeta and he would have kept up with his theory of it just being high speed movement.

1 - I actually went and watched the scene with the building again. I will say that it was smaller than I recalled but it was definitely bigger than that building.

- I would say we have a good bit of evidence saying Superman is faster. And when I say how strong I meant how much lifting power do you think Goku has since you are saying that the building scene in GT is to weak of a showing. That doesn't really have anything to do with speed.

4 - what do you not understand?

[GoKu.SaMa]

vegeta was shocked by the teleporting technique

--------------

1- this building's weight is 6000 tons.



-I will talk about that after we know who is faster .

4-I don't understand , but still Goku can prevent him from reaching the sun .

Yeah Vegeta was shocked by a technique that let Goku move so fast. If Goku could have made that trip with pure speed then the technique wouldn't be shocking to Vegeta and he would have kept up with his theory of it just being high speed movement.

1 - I actually went and watched the scene with the building again. I will say that it was smaller than I recalled but it was definitely bigger than that building.

- I would say we have a good bit of evidence saying Superman is faster. And when I say how strong I meant how much lifting power do you think Goku has since you are saying that the building scene in GT is to weak of a showing. That doesn't really have anything to do with speed.

4 - what do you not understand?

He was shocked because it was a teleporting technique , not because of it's speed .

Even if what you are saying is right ,still that dosen't mean my calcs are wrong .

1-In which episode did you watched the building ?

4-What are superman's power sources ?

if the sun was the only power source he has ,then he would die without it .