Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Um... Actually no, I don't know if you any experience with legal contexts, but shifting the burden of proof doesn't work like that. You'd need find someone who thinks the two-base theory can be the only explanation.

You request proof if you want to establish a theory as the truth or disprove it as false, not if you're arguing the theory could possibly be valid.
In this case - since you're the one trying to disprove something people are simply contemplating as a possible answer - you'd technically be the one with the burden of proof, not "us theorists". In fact, it goes without saying that if we are "theorists", we are still making theories. If we said our theory was supposed to be the only possibility, then you could be talking about "burden of proof".
I don't know if anyone said "they have two bases, today it has finally been proven"; but perhaps you should direct your attention or your requests for proof on them.

Fans are making the claim that Goku and Vegeta have two-base forms that greatly vary in power, something that the series has never done before. So, it is up to the fans who believed this theory to prove it, not the people who don't to disprove it since the status quo is that Vegeta and Goku have one base form.

I laid out the facts of what the series have shown us. The burden of proof is on fans to show how the two-base theories works with what has been shown. And there were several posters that said, 'they have two bases, today it has finally been proven'. That or Goku's base form isn't as powerful as it was during the BOG or Resurrection 'F' because it got retcon with no in-universe acknowledgement unlike all the other retcons we have seen in the series.

[LowRyder2005]

Again, no. If it's merely their "theory" they don't have to prove anything. If they wanted to "prove their theory" then yes, they'd be the ones who needed proof. Honestly, what's so difficult about it?

[HeroR]

Again, no. If it's their "theory" they don't have to prove anything. If they wanted to "prove their theory" then yes, they'd need proof. Honestly, what's so difficult about it?

A theory can only be valid if it can stand up to the tough questions. When fans go and say, 'this episode proves that the two-base theory is real', they need to back it up with everything else that has been stated.

[LowRyder2005]

Again, no. If it's their "theory" they don't have to prove anything. If they wanted to "prove their theory" then yes, they'd need proof. Honestly, what's so difficult about it?

A theory can only be valid if it can stand up to the tough questions. When fans go and say, 'this episode proves that the two-base theory is real', they need to back it up with everything else that has been stated.

I honestly think you have a rather crucial problem confusing the idea of "making theories" with what is actually "establishing facts". A "valid theory" is not necessarily the "truth", but simply a "theory" which has not been proven false up until the moment the assertion is made.
Bolded part: that's not what a theory is. Nor is fans saying "the two-base theory is real": that's an attempt to establish a fact. If I say something is real, I'm not making a theory, although others may say that my assertion is in fact a theory because I lacked proof. If I say something "could" be real, I'm theorizing.

I would have rather not have the discussion devolve into semantics, but apparently a dictionary definition is needed here:

Theory:
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/theory

I'm afraid I'll have to be blunt: I simply think you don't like the fact that a lot of people have come up with this theory that doesn't strike your fancy, and you are trying to put it down as an illogical possibility through some rather unsteady train of thought. Point is, that while you could deem aforementioned theory improbable (a perfectly legitimate assertion) or argue that it's not been proven (again, perfectly legitimate) there's not a single logical impossibility that's come up thus far with the general idea that Goku and Vegeta could have two bases, even from an in-universe point-of-view. And that's enough to make it a viable theory.

[HeroR]

Again, no. If it's their "theory" they don't have to prove anything. If they wanted to "prove their theory" then yes, they'd need proof. Honestly, what's so difficult about it?

A theory can only be valid if it can stand up to the tough questions. When fans go and say, 'this episode proves that the two-base theory is real', they need to back it up with everything else that has been stated.

I honestly think you have a rather crucial problem confusing the idea of "making theories" with what is actually "establishing facts". A "valid theory" is not necessarily the "truth", but simply a "theory" which has not been proven false up until the moment the assertion is made.
Bolded part: that's not what a theory is. Nor is fans saying "the two-base theory is real": that's an attempt to establish a fact. If I say something is real, I'm not making a theory, although others may say that my assertion is in fact a theory because I lacked proof. If I say something "could" be real, I'm theorizing.

I would have rather not have the discussion devolve into semantics, but apparently a dictionary definition is needed here:

Theory:
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/theory

I'm afraid I'll have to be blunt: I simply think you don't like the fact that a lot of people have come up with this theory that doesn't strike your fancy, and you are trying to put it down as an illogical possibility through some rather unsteady train of thought. Point is, that while you could deem aforementioned theory improbable (a perfectly legitimate assertion) there's not a single logical impossibility with the general idea that Goku and Vegeta could have two bases, even from an in-universe point-of-view. And that's enough to make it a viable theory.

I have no problem with people having this theory. I have a problem pushing this theory as fact when I can so easily poke holes through it.

[LowRyder2005]

I have no problem with people having this theory. I have a problem pushing this theory as fact when I can so easily poke holes through it.

This is absolutely fine on your part, of course. If we are trying to push a theory as a fact we do need the ability to overcome even "the most difficult questions" adequately.
As far as I am concerned I think that the two-base is mostly rooted in an out-of-universe explanation, and I can understand perfectly why it couldn't be suitable to everyone's palate.

[Zamasu55]

I'd say there's been a real lack of communication between Toriyama and Toei on this.

It seems as though Toriyama probably did retcon Goku's power so that he was no longer a Saiyan Beyond God as a reason to bring back the original Super Saiyan forms.

Toyotaro was aware of this and it's why Goku did not absorb Super Saiyan God in the manga and they're still at Buu saga levels normally.

Toei however were not aware of this because that's not how it was in the Resurrection F movie that they were adaptating and they kept this Saiyan Beyond God Goku until recently where they may have realised this and so they've started to nerf him back down to the level he's at in the manga.

Scenes like Base Goku vs Frieza, Base Vegeta vs Gotenks, Base Goku vs Beerus and some other scenes could end up being hugely inconsistent in the long run and may need to be ignored as most of these scenes would be Toei filler anyway.

No, they're much stronger than their Buu-saga selves even without God ki.
And those scenes can't be ignored at all.

[TheMikado]

Regardless of what you believe the fact is the writing is unbelievably poor at best and possibly bordering on irredeemable at this point.

[DBZ Macky]

And most people agree that there'd be inconsistent writing coming into play in the "two base" case. Besides, it was never said "Goku and Vegeta only have one base"; therefore, speaking in probabilistic terms like "but character X didn't say Y!" is pretty much a moot point.

Since it is a claim that Goku and Vegeta has two base forms, it's the two-base theorists that needs to prove this claim.

But we can't. Because the Two-Base stuff does not exist In-universe.

It's just a matter of confusion. If you can prove the theory wrong, then please do. By all means.

I'm not pushing the Two-base theory because I have some ulterior motive; I legitimately want to deduce an accurate power scale for the Anime side of things.

Performance speaks for itself. And I definitely don't think I'd be wrong in assuming that there has been some misunderstanding out-of-universe which is causing all this power inconsistency.

C'mon, we had stuff like Yamcha defeating Olibu, but it never affected the story, so we rolled with it or just ignored it saying "filler".
THIS situatuon is serious though, since it affects the placement of most characters in the power scale, not just a single one but multiple characters.

[TheMikado]

^ And that's why power scaling MATTERS in a series themed around POWER. It's literally a power fantasy. You wouldn't accept crappy ambiguous relationships ina romance story, unless it was well done why should we accept crap like this?

[Marlowe89]

I'm afraid I'll have to be blunt: I simply think you don't like the fact that a lot of people have come up with this theory that doesn't strike your fancy, and you are trying to put it down as an illogical possibility through some rather unsteady train of thought. Point is, that while you could deem aforementioned theory improbable (a perfectly legitimate assertion) or argue that it's not been proven (again, perfectly legitimate) there's not a single logical impossibility that's come up thus far with the general idea that Goku and Vegeta could have two bases, even from an in-universe point-of-view. And that's enough to make it a viable theory.

To add on to what you've said, I myself don't intend to argue that the two base interpretation is an absolute truth - that's why I refer to it as an interpretation - but I do believe there has been enough evidence presented in the show (some of which is pretty direct) to deem it a viable theory at this point. To be clear, I don't think it's merely an unofficial consequence of bad writing but something that has actually been intended by at least some of the writers working for Toei. I've previously cited multiple episodes as what I think is support for this notion.

[HeroR]

But we can't. Because the Two-Base stuff does not exist In-universe.

It's just a matter of confusion. If you can prove the theory wrong, then please do. By all means.

I'm not pushing the Two-base theory because I have some ulterior motive; I legitimately want to deduce an accurate power scale for the Anime side of things.

Performance speaks for itself. And I definitely don't think I'd be wrong in assuming that there has been some misunderstanding out-of-universe which is causing all this power inconsistency.

C'mon, we had stuff like Yamcha defeating Olibu, but it never affected the story, so we rolled with it or just ignored it saying "filler".
THIS situatuon is serious though, since it affects the placement of most characters in the power scale, not just a single one but multiple characters.

No offense, but if the two-base theory doesn't exists in-universe, then it doesn't exist period.

The two-base theory works on the theory that Goku and Vegeta has this powerful base form that surpassed all the forms of golden Super Saiyan. Yet, Goku and Vegeta don't feel the need to used this form except with Goku fighting Hit, assumingely, since Goku took attacks from Hit. We already stated why this base form can't have god ki and no one ever said anything about Goku's base form being higher at any given point.

I doubt there is a misunderstanding. If Toriyama felt the need to retcon Goku absorbing god ki or switching between an ultra-powerful base and a much weaker base form, it would be in his outline, just like the sixth Time Ring that was created when Beerus killed Present Zamasu in of Trunks just time traveling. Toei even made the 70% line and Goku and Vegeta working together to beat Beerus disappear from the retellings, months before Toriyama officially stated that he had no plans of letting Goku or Vegeta surpassing Beerus any time soon. They also retcon Goku becoming a Super Saiyan God again during the final pushed against Beerus, inlining with Toriyama's interview about Goku not needing Super Saiyan God anymore because he absorbed it.

So, I am not seeing any evident of this miscommunication.

I'm afraid I'll have to be blunt: I simply think you don't like the fact that a lot of people have come up with this theory that doesn't strike your fancy, and you are trying to put it down as an illogical possibility through some rather unsteady train of thought. Point is, that while you could deem aforementioned theory improbable (a perfectly legitimate assertion) or argue that it's not been proven (again, perfectly legitimate) there's not a single logical impossibility that's come up thus far with the general idea that Goku and Vegeta could have two bases, even from an in-universe point-of-view. And that's enough to make it a viable theory.

To add on to what you've said, I myself don't intend to argue that the two base interpretation is an absolute truth - that's why I refer to it as an interpretation - but I do believe there has been enough evidence presented in the show (some of which is pretty direct) to deem it a viable theory at this point. To be clear, I don't think it's merely an unofficial consequence of bad writing but something that has actually been intended by at least some of the writers working for Toei. I've previously cited multiple episodes as what I think is support for this notion.

Here is the problem with that. Since the Champa Saga, Super has two writers who have written the majority of the sagas. King Ryu and the person who wrote the Future Trunks Saga and seemingly this upcoming arc. Neither one suggested that Goku and Vegeta had two-base form. If there was a time to suggest this, Goku fighting Hit would have been the perfect time. They didn't. According to the episode, the base form that fought Hit was the same base form that fought Frost. The Future Trunks Saga had the chance to make the two-base theory a thing when Goku was going through his Super Saiyan forms with Trunks, trying to see where he measured against Black. He stopped at Super Saiyan 3 and it was never suggested that they had a more powerful form other than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. There is also the question of why would they used the energy draining Super Saiyan forms if they have a base form that makes them even stronger and assumingely drain less energy, especially since Goku specifically said he won't transform to Hit to save his stamina.

So it isn't like Super had half a dozen writers who don't talk to each other.

[Bullza]

Seems to me, Gohan is stronger than base Goku and proly as strong as ssj Goku in ssj form.

Makes sense tbh.

Not really. Back in the Resurrection F saga Base Goku should be well over 10,000 times as strong as Base Gohan. How could they be equal now when Goku has done far more training since then?

No, they're much stronger than their Buu-saga selves even without God ki.
And those scenes can't be ignored at all.

In the manga? There's not that much of an indication that they're too far away from their Buu saga levels and nothing at all like where they stand in the anime.

Those filler scenes in the anime showing this super strong Base Goku could very well be inconsistent now and this is something we'll find out more in the next saga but Goku has gone from being well above SSJ3 Gotenks in Base to about equal to SSJG Gohan as a Super Saiyan.

It's like the canon material has Goku at Buu levels what with Piccolo arguably being stronger than him in Base, Cabba somehow being so unbelievably powerful and Trunks being comparable to him etc.

Then the filler material has Goku at God levels what with him being superior to Gotenks and being able to fight Beerus and Toei just didn't know about it and thats why everyone has always been so confused.

[HeroR]

Seems to me, Gohan is stronger than base Goku and proly as strong as ssj Goku in ssj form.

Makes sense tbh.

Not really. Back in the Resurrection F saga Base Goku should be well over 10,000 times as strong as Base Gohan. How could they be equal now when Goku has done far more training since then?

No, they're much stronger than their Buu-saga selves even without God ki.
And those scenes can't be ignored at all.

In the manga? There's not that much of an indication that they're too far away from their Buu saga levels and nothing at all like where they stand in the anime.

Those filler scenes in the anime showing this super strong Base Goku could very well be inconsistent now and this is something we'll find out more in the next saga but Goku has gone from being well above SSJ3 Gotenks in Base to about equal to SSJG Gohan as a Super Saiyan.

It's like the canon material has Goku at Buu levels what with Piccolo arguably being stronger than him in Base, Cabba somehow being so unbelievably powerful and Trunks being comparable to him etc.

Then the filler material has Goku at God levels what with him being superior to Gotenks and being able to fight Beerus and Toei just didn't know about it and thats why everyone has always been so confused.

This isn't like the old days where you can just separate 'canon' from 'filler'. Everything in the Super anime is canon to the anime. Copy-Vegeta, Beerus fighting Goku in a Monaka costumed, all happened. You also can't ignored Goku fighting a trained final form Freeza which happened in both the movie and Super. If Toriyama wanted to retcon this, it would have been done long ago, just like how Beerus' 70% line and Goku and Vegeta overcoming Beerus by working together got cut months before Toriyama said that Beerus would remained stronger for the foreseeable future.

And if you want to go 'filler don't count' you can't even count this episode since it's technically 'filler' too. The official start of the new arc isn't until 77.

[Ki Breaker]

It's easy to see what they tried to show most of the times, but gohan going toe to toe with SS goku when base goku was a match against freeza is very weird..
I am going with Gohan got stronger theory even if it's full of holes, others don't work too good either

[DBZ Macky]

No offense, but if the two-base theory doesn't exists in-universe, then it doesn't exist.

None taken. In fact, I wouldn't mind if you give your honest thoughts on the "theory". It definitely would sound stupid to someone who isn't actively participating in power level "debates" and actually going with the theory once just to see how it does. I'm interested in hearing your opinion of this mess.

As Marlowe said, it's just a matter of a different interpretation. I'm not saying the theory is 100% confirmed. And even though I gave my thoughts on how it only exists out-of-universe, I'd like to retract my statement and say that there is absolutely nothing contradicting the fact that the theory could exist in-universe as well.

If you can bring up something that contradicts the theory, or even a slight implication, by all means, please let me know.

Speaking of you sir, Marlowe89, I read some of your posts earlier and I definitely am convinced. Would you also take the time to showcase the various incidents in the whole story that imply or "confirm" the theory?
If it's not too much trouble, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the power scale from start to finish (as in the current stuff).

[HeroR]

No offense, but if the two-base theory doesn't exists in-universe, then it doesn't exist.

None taken. In fact, I wouldn't mind if you give your honest thoughts on the "theory". It definitely would sound stupid to someone who isn't actively participating in power level "debates" and actually going with the theory once just to see how it does. I'm interested in hearing your opinion of this mess.

As Marlowe said, it's just a matter of a different interpretation. I'm not saying the theory is 100% confirmed. And even though I gave my thoughts on how it only exists out-of-universe, I'd like to retract my statement and say that there is absolutely nothing contradicting the fact that the theory could exist in-universe as well.

If you can bring up something that contradicts the theory, or even a slight implication, by all means, please let me know.

Speaking of you sir, Marlowe89, I read some of your posts earlier and I definitely am convinced. Would you also take the time to showcase the various incidents in the whole story that imply or "confirm" the theory?
If it's not too much trouble, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the power scale from start to finish (as in the current stuff).

I have already given my peace why the two-base theory doesn't work in-universe. Those he wants to believe in the theory are free to do so. Just know that it's highly flawed and has major issues.

[Marlowe89]

Speaking of you sir, Marlowe89, I read some of your posts earlier and I definitely am convinced. Would you also take the time to showcase the various incidents in the whole story that imply or "confirm" the theory?
If it's not too much trouble, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the power scale from start to finish (as in the current stuff).

I was actually thinking of creating a "master" post of sorts detailing what I believe to be evidence throughout the series that would suggest the theory to be true and also assessing the power scale of the anime from the beginning, but that post would be quite comprehensive and might take me a lengthy amount of time to finish. Combining that with how occupied I've been in my personal life, I'm not sure I'll even be able to complete it until we're already well into the universal tournament arc.

That being said, you're more than welcome to browse through all of my previous posts in the meantime (particularly my more recent posts if you'd like to see a more refined version of the theory). Definitely stay tuned though.

[Bullza]

This isn't like the old days where you can just separate 'canon' from 'filler'. Everything in the Super anime is canon to the anime.

That's not really what I'm getting at. I'm talking about Toei shifting their power level over time so it more closely reflects the manga and possibly Toriyama's interpretation.

So in Resurrection F Base Goku was far above everyone else. That carried over to the anime. Then they kept that consistent when he fought Beerus in the costume and then Gotenks.

But since then they've realised that Goku shouldn't be that strong so they've brought him down to where he "should" be even though it makes those previous scenes now appear inconsistent.

[TheMikado]

This isn't like the old days where you can just separate 'canon' from 'filler'. Everything in the Super anime is canon to the anime.

That's not really what I'm getting at. I'm talking about Toei shifting their power level over time so it more closely reflects the manga and possibly Toriyama's interpretation.

So in Resurrection F Base Goku was far above everyone else. That carried over to the anime. Then they kept that consistent when he fought Beerus in the costume and then Gotenks.

But since then they've realised that Goku shouldn't be that strong so they've brought him down to where he "should" be even though it makes those previous scenes now appear inconsistent.

And that's exactly what I think happened! Like I've said before, due to the very short preproduction window I could easily see an agreement where Toei adapts the first two arcs while Toriyama works on the next. By the time they got them them Super was already airing and Gokus base was already above SSJ3 Gotenks. They probably figured they could fanagle it for as long as possible until they finally reached a point where they can't make it make sense anymore and now they're just acting like they were never that strong to begin with. It's fine if that's happened it's just that no ones saying hey we messed up, rather I it's played as if, hey these fans and kids are too stupid to notice something's wrong anyway, they just care about the fights, we could have trained monkeys writing the story for all these imbeciles care and they'd still watch it and make every reason why it's the greater Dragonball episode yet of the entire franchise...