HeroR wrote:Why are you assuming that the manga is more accurate to Toriyama's vision. This is based on nothing. There isn't even an interview to support this point-of-view, while we have lots of interviews and the movies saying that Goku absorbed godhood.
Why would Toei think one thing during the retellings when they already made changes to Beerus' power. Why is this assumption that Toriyama doesn't talk to Toei and he made this major retcon that changes the ending to BOG and the entire fight with Freeza, yet told no one about it. We have seen interviews that says that Toriyama talks to the anime staff, the manga, and the person who write the manga talks to the anime staff. So why would this retcon happened and Toei didn't know about it. What's the basics of this?
This assumption has a lot of flaws since it's assuming that none of the branches of Super communicate, which no such thing has been said. In fact, it's the opposite. Toei and the manga follow the outline. Toei and the manga fill in the holes. The anime some times reference the manga, and the manga some times reference the anime and they exchanged ideas. Toriyama looks at both, yet he's only concern if the gags come out okay. There is no basics that a major retcon happened and Toei didn't know about it.
I don't know if you're just not reading posts here, but
Bullza and I aren't just drawing from the manga. We're saying the new events of
Super make more sense without the base increase either way, and, oh hey, that's the approach the manga decided to codify early on. It's just a bit of evidence.
Again, I just don't find it all that unlikely that given the extremely rushed production of
Super and Toriyama not much caring for relative power consistency, adaptations of the movies charged blindly ahead while the new outlines indicated a different approach (one which Toyotaro, as a lone author and super-fan, might be able to more quickly identify and write around).
You have to pick your poison between that, intentional, in-universe dual bases that are never discussed and subsequently dropped, or many, many characters becoming powerful enough to give Beerus a good time off-screen, which is also never commented on.
I guess you just have to pick the unspoken thing that seems most believable and least stupid.
EDIT -- Woops, didn't see the rest of your post in time to include it. Hopefully this gets in before another response:
As I have pointed out, the retellings removed Beerus' 70% power line and Goku and Vegeta working together could possible beat Beerus. Months later, Toriyama said that he had no plans to let Goku or Vegeta surpassed Beerus any time soon. So the anime staff had to be aware of this changed, otherwise why removed it when they have been faithful to the movies almost to a fault.
I'm not convinced that removing the 70% line has any bearing on whether the super-strong base forms stayed after the adaptations. It just indicates a desire to keep the distance between Beerus and the Saiyans more vague.
Goku not absorbing godhood also changes the ending of BOG since a major point was that Goku absorbed godhood, which impressed Beerus, and it changes Resurrection 'F' when a giant point is made that Goku can fight a reborn, freshly trained Freeza without Super Saiyan. In fact, the original trailer was build around Goku not needed Super Saiyan to beat Freeza. So this is a big retcon.
I am aware that it's a big retcon, mostly due to the way the fight against Freeza plays out.
Even if rushed, it took the anime months to reached Resurrection 'F', which gave Toriyama more than enough time to tell Toei, 'Hey, Goku didn't absorbed godhood so his base form isn't super strong. Change up the fight with Freeza'. And if Toriyama didn't care about strength, why would he even bother retconning it in the first place?
Super began almost immediately after the Freeza movie, quite possibly while the Universe 6 arc was still being written, and was in an absolute tailspin until well after the adaptation arcs were done. This is a show in which we literally never learned why the Pilaf gang were kids again, as if someone didn't realize it never made it into a script, and animation was barely being completed as late as episode 25. I feel like it can't be overstated enough how absolutely by-the-skin-of-their-teeth Toei must have been planning episodes. As for a reason for the change, I speculated above it would be in the interest of allowing other Super Saiyan forms to be used again, and adding a bit more tension to the fights.
The only people we have seen being able to pushed Goku and Vegeta have been from other universes, and Freeza with his golden transformation. No one in U7 compared to them even in their base forms.
Well, you'd have Frost at Super Saiyan God-level. Which means Piccolo suddenly isn't far behind, and Cabba may or may not be as well. Beerus is aware of Zamasu in Universe 10, who is suddenly strong enough to give him the kind of fight he longed for in the opening arc. Hey, so is Trunks. Now you have Goku and Gohan keeping relative pace with transformations, etc.
Lotta people are suddenly around to challenge Beerus, with absolutely no statements regarding it. I find it less likely that this is the intended direction than I do a quiet retcon, for a number of reasons outlined to the best of my ability above. If that's not remotely convincing to you, I don't think I can offer anything else; agree to disagree.
What air? They always fight outside there's air for everyone. It's not like they made a point of huge gusts of wind were blowing his hair up. Some shots it looks spikier than others.