The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:33 am

If Goku Potara fused with Kaioshin; what is the strongest version of Buu you think he could take?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:36 am

The "strongest ki I've ever felt" lines do not have to include the person saying it. Goku said the same thing about the fat Janemba... then proceeded to easily whoop him with Super Saiyan 3. In the same vein, Goku WAS Vegetto. So all that line in GT can potentially prove for sure is that Baby-Vegeta had become stronger than Gohan-Boo.

Meanwhile, Super Vegetto's strength is treated by pretty much ever source out there like a huge deal, and a GT-centric source even speculates that he's "perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4," almost as though to say the upper limits of his power remain a mystery.

So... no, the bloated power comparisons in GT are not as cut-and-dry as some might treat them. I don't even dabble in GT strength details much at all, but I'm able to keep track of some of this stuff.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:38 am

Didn't Vegetto even say he underestimated his own strength?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Friezacooler » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:38 am

that is more than prove enough. that Goku knows vegeto's ki or he wouldn't have mentioned on the Potara. the fact he states one blast makes it even more of a fact he knows vegito's ki. nuff said.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Draken » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:39 am

Friezacooler wrote:that is more than prove enough. that Goku knows vegeto's ki or he wouldn't have mentioned on the Potara. the fact he states one blast makes it even more of a fact he knows vegito's ki. nuff said.
Considering you're the only one saying so at this moment, no it's not "nuff said". Did you even read any other post or are you just shouting into the wind with your hands over your ears?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Saiga » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:46 am

Doesn't Old Kaioshin basically say that Super Baby 1 or 2 is the strongest ki he has ever felt? That would mean he's definitely surpassed Vegetto.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:49 am

Friezacooler wrote:that is more than prove enough. that Goku knows vegeto's ki or he wouldn't have mentioned on the Potara. the fact he states one blast makes it even more of a fact he knows vegito's ki. nuff said.
I'm sure Goku really does remember Super Vegetto's strength. It was HIS strength for the short time he and Vegeta were fused, after all. But the point is that doesn't make Baby-Vegeta stronger than that because of a blanket statement, thanks to that type of statement being used in other contexts.
Saiga wrote:Doesn't Old Kaioshin basically say that Super Baby 1 or 2 is the strongest ki he has ever felt? That would mean he's definitely surpassed Vegetto.
I think it was Super Saiyan 4 Goku he said it about, not Baby. I haven't been able to track down the specific line, though.

Even if so, there's still another potential loophole for that, too. If Vegetto was leaps and bounds stronger than Gohan-Boo, he may well have only ever used a portion of his power. So the strongest that anyone ever "felt" from him would not be his full power, which for all anyone knows could indeed be comparable or superior to SSJ4 Goku's.

It just goes to show there's multiple legit approaches to most things.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:55 am

I remember Elder Kaioshin saying something about that too; although you could argue Elder Kaioshin never felt Vegetto's true power of SSJ3.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Draken » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:58 am

Considering the ease with which Vegetto was able to curb-stomp Buuhan and the fact that he never showed any signs of trying, I think it's safe to say that Vegetto didn't need to use his full power against Buuhan, and thus didn't actually project his full ki to be sensed.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:07 am

Draken wrote:Considering the ease with which Vegetto was able to curb-stomp Buuhan and the fact that he never showed any signs of trying, I think it's safe to say that Vegetto didn't need to use his full power against Buuhan, and thus didn't actually project his full ki to be sensed.
Even if so, there's still another potential loophole for that, too. If Vegetto was leaps and bounds stronger than Gohan-Boo, he may well have only ever used a portion of his power. So the strongest that anyone ever "felt" from him would not be his full power, which for all anyone knows could indeed be comparable or superior to SSJ4 Goku's.
In the manga, maybe. In the anime, which GT follows, it's extremely unlikely for him to have been using anything less than his full power; he actually struggled against Buuhan several times, most notably when Buu started his universe destroying scream. That doesn't mean that the anime comic is wrong, it just means that Super Vegetto is slightly weaker than a SS4 rather than slightly stronger (hence the "perhaps"). Or it could just be saying that Vegetto in general- that is, Vegetto's max- is slightly stronger than a SS4. "Assume full power" has always made the most sense to me on issues like this. Why would it randomly be comparing the full power of a SS4 to a suppressed form of Vegetto's?
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:21 am

Goku Potara fused with Kaioshin Vs. Super Buu
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Friezacooler » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:29 am

Old kai said that about both baby vegeta, and SSj4 Goku during super 17 saga.
General rilldo powers up and Goku states his ki is even greater than Boo's and than Goku powers up and General rilldo states "Battle power impossible to calculate" so even goku from rilldo saga has a point to be put on a higher level as Vegito who got sensed by DBZ Goku.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Draken » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:30 am

Kid Buu wrote:Goku Potara fused with Kaioshin Vs. Super Buu
Super Buu stomp, Kaioshin makes Goku weaker and less courageous.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Friezacooler » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:32 am

Draken wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:Goku Potara fused with Kaioshin Vs. Super Buu
Super Buu stomp, Kaioshin makes Goku weaker and less courageous.
indeed old kai confirms that.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:35 am

Kid Buu wrote:Goku Potara fused with Kaioshin Vs. Super Buu
I don't know... how would the Super Saiyan forms work here? Could Kaioku/Goshin still transform?
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:39 am

For the sake of this match; KaioGoku can go SSJ3.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:52 am

Kid Buu wrote:For the sake of this match; KaioGoku can go SSJ3.
Okay... running this one through my Potara formula.

(81,000,000 + 2,000,000,000) x 4.05 = 8,428,050,000

Already stronger than a SS2, just in base. His Super Saiyan form alone would be enough to beat Super Buu without breaking a sweat. In fact, he'd be the second strongest character in Z period, behind Vegetto (and yes, that includes Gogeta; I think that Super Kaioku could easily dismantle SS3 Gogeta).

Overall, it would be pretty similar to what would happen if you just gave Kibitoshin the ability to go Super Saiyan 1/2/3. That's assuming them being a different species doesn't have negative effects, though. That's also assuming fused and normal saiyans get the same multipliers. If I used my modified fusion multipliers, Kaioku couldn't win even with SS3.

(when speculating on power levels, I toy with giving fused saiyans different multipliers based mostly on the confusing implications about Gotenks and Buff Buu)
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:52 am

Saiga wrote:Doesn't Old Kaioshin basically say that Super Baby 1 or 2 is the strongest ki he has ever felt? That would mean he's definitely surpassed Vegetto.
I can't find that line in the GT Strength Checker.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:58 am

I think Goku says that about Baby. I always thought Rou Kaioshin said Super Saiyan 4 Goku had the greatest power he ever sensed. I don't think he does, though.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Friezacooler » Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:17 am

Hirudegarn > Birusu

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